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Recently I got an offer over the telephone to intern for a certain COA judge. I had only mailed my resume to them the day before; I guess it was the grades (first in my class at a certain T25 school from which I'm transferring). They were the only circuit judge in the town where I'll be this summer who was still hiring. I also sent letters to about half of my local District Court yesterday (the ones who were still hiring). And I have an interview with a state appellate court judge. I would seem to have an easy choice; accept and decline whatever calls for interviews I get in the days to come, and cancel the interview I already have. However, a quick google search reveals that this judge is infamously abusive to clerks. I would quote specific things that people have written because a paraphrase doesn't begin to capture the flavor of the comments these ex-clerks make about them, but then that would give away who I'm talking about. Suffice it to say that the stories are absolutely off the wall and that it sounds like the judge has done everything short of literally beating their clerks, many of whom quit their prestigious employment with them because they can't take the abuse. So I ask, is a COA internship really a must-take job? (For whatever reason, I didn't even bother applying to firms, in spite of my grades; I'm lazy, I guess, and it was just so easy to write an "I'm good at research and writing" cover letter and send it to 20 judges whose names I pulled out of the Judicial Yellow Book.) You have to think that out of the ten District Court judges I applied to, a few should want to hire me.

I've heard that a lot of judges pay no attention at all to their interns & just have the clerks manage them. Is it possible this one is one of those? Is there anyway for you to find out (perhaps from a present or former clerk) how much the judge interacts with interns (and not just clerks)?

Aeroplane wrote:I've heard that a lot of judges pay no attention at all to their interns & just have the clerks manage them. Is it possible this one is one of those? Is there anyway for you to find out (perhaps from a present or former clerk) how much the judge interacts with interns (and not just clerks)?

I suppose it's possible. Google turns up a ton of people who have interned for this judge; I could write to one.

Anonymous User wrote:

Aeroplane wrote:I've heard that a lot of judges pay no attention at all to their interns & just have the clerks manage them. Is it possible this one is one of those? Is there anyway for you to find out (perhaps from a present or former clerk) how much the judge interacts with interns (and not just clerks)?

I suppose it's possible. Google turns up a ton of people who have interned for this judge; I could write to one.

I was just thinking that if this judge has little/no interaction with interns, then maybe you could take the job w/o suffering the abuse the clerks do. Although I can't imagine it'll be a happy place to work

I would never want to work for an a-hole judge. I'd rather work at a local district state court.

in view of your bad ass grades and the fact you'll likely be graduating from a T10, why waste a summer with some a-hole judge? try for the a usdc instead, as you mentioned. you're not in a position where you have to take the COA internship because your resume is hurting for fall OCI. do something more enjoyable

A'nold wrote:I would never want to work for an a-hole judge. I'd rather work at a local district state court.

I have no idea if posting stuff about this judge is risky or not - pretty sure they're not reading top law schools - but due to the necessity to withhold any kind of identifying information about the judge, I am leaving out a pretty huge comedy factor that, in my view at least, although obviously not in that of their ex-clerks, makes this judge seem a lot more fun/funny than your traditional a-hole judge.

As to the USDC, look, I mean, no guarantee I get a job with one of them. In addition I am all about appellate law and not so much trial work.

betasteve wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

Aeroplane wrote:I've heard that a lot of judges pay no attention at all to their interns & just have the clerks manage them. Is it possible this one is one of those? Is there anyway for you to find out (perhaps from a present or former clerk) how much the judge interacts with interns (and not just clerks)?

I suppose it's possible. Google turns up a ton of people who have interned for this judge; I could write to one.

How might one find this type of information. The google searches I am using are no good.

I searched "Judge So And So" "judicial intern". Quite a few lawyers mention that they interned for Judge So And So in their profiles on their firms' websites. I guess in that sense it shows that it's not some meaningless job.

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TTT-LS wrote: Why do you assume clerks will dole out abuse? Working with the clerks, and ever so occasionally with the judge, might be great experience. As someone who will be clerking starting this summer, I'd like to think I'll be nice to interns if we have any around (no clue if my judge hires interns or not).

No, you misread him. He's saying hopefully I, the intern, won't receive the same amount of abuse from Judge Mystery Person that the clerks do. At any rate, I'm taking the job.

Aren't you by custom supposed to accept if you get a judicial internship offer, which would make this a moot point?

Anonymous User wrote:

TTT-LS wrote: Why do you assume clerks will dole out abuse? Working with the clerks, and ever so occasionally with the judge, might be great experience. As someone who will be clerking starting this summer, I'd like to think I'll be nice to interns if we have any around (no clue if my judge hires interns or not).

No, you misread . He's saying hopefully I, the intern, won't receive the same amount of abuse from Judge Mystery Person that the clerks do. At any rate, I'm taking the job.

This, except "her" not "him" I figure maybe the clerks will be like a layer of insulation.

starstruck393 wrote:Aren't you by custom supposed to accept if you get a judicial internship offer, which would make this a moot point?

Well, I don't know how strong that custom is. I told the judge I had some interviews scheduled with other judges and had to think about it for a day. They understood, I mean, it'd be one thing if the offer was made at the end of an interview, but this judge just called me up on the phone and said they'd like to hire me.

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Anonymous User wrote:

starstruck393 wrote:Aren't you by custom supposed to accept if you get a judicial internship offer, which would make this a moot point?

Well, I don't know how strong that custom is. I told the judge I had some interviews scheduled with other judges and had to think about it for a day. They understood, I mean, it'd be one thing if the offer was made at the end of an interview, but this judge just called me up on the phone and said they'd like to hire me.

I dunno (I asked an honest question, it wasn't sarcasm, btw). I saw in another thread that if you apply to judges for internships, the risk you take is that you must accept. if offered People even said that some schools OCS's would quasi force you to, so as not to hurt relationships with that judge. Essentially the vibe was that if you have reservations about accepting, don't apply, and if you get a preferential offer first, immediately withdraw your judicial applications. Maybe an actual law student could weigh in more; I find it interesting...

starstruck393 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

starstruck393 wrote:Aren't you by custom supposed to accept if you get a judicial internship offer, which would make this a moot point?

Well, I don't know how strong that custom is. I told the judge I had some interviews scheduled with other judges and had to think about it for a day. They understood, I mean, it'd be one thing if the offer was made at the end of an interview, but this judge just called me up on the phone and said they'd like to hire me.

I dunno (I asked an honest question, it wasn't sarcasm, btw). I saw in another thread that if you apply to judges for internships, the risk you take is that you must accept. if offered People even said that some schools OCS's would quasi force you to, so as not to hurt relationships with that judge. Essentially the vibe was that if you have reservations about accepting, don't apply, and if you get a preferential offer first, immediately withdraw your judicial applications. Maybe an actual law student could weigh in more; I find it interesting...

Yeah, I've heard that. My OCS, however, said they'd never even heard of such a custom. Perhaps suggesting what idiots they are over there (although the one I talk to is ridiculously good-looking, but that doesn't really have much to do with the quality of her advice). But I mean, they're definitely not quasi-forcing me to do anything. Not sure how they can do that anyway, especially when I'm transferring out.

Anonymous User wrote:

starstruck393 wrote:

Anonymous User wrote:

starstruck393 wrote:Aren't you by custom supposed to accept if you get a judicial internship offer, which would make this a moot point?

Well, I don't know how strong that custom is. I told the judge I had some interviews scheduled with other judges and had to think about it for a day. They understood, I mean, it'd be one thing if the offer was made at the end of an interview, but this judge just called me up on the phone and said they'd like to hire me.

I dunno (I asked an honest question, it wasn't sarcasm, btw). I saw in another thread that if you apply to judges for internships, the risk you take is that you must accept. if offered People even said that some schools OCS's would quasi force you to, so as not to hurt relationships with that judge. Essentially the vibe was that if you have reservations about accepting, don't apply, and if you get a preferential offer first, immediately withdraw your judicial applications. Maybe an actual law student could weigh in more; I find it interesting...

Yeah, I've heard that. My OCS, however, said they'd never even heard of such a custom. Perhaps suggesting what idiots they are over there (although the one I talk to is ridiculously good-looking, but that doesn't really have much to do with the quality of her advice). But I mean, they're definitely not quasi-forcing me to do anything. Not sure how they can do that anyway, especially when I'm transferring out.

Not force, per se, but strongly apply pressure. Oh well. So you're going T25->T10? Congrats

I talked to a federal clerk today, that said that this applies to clerkships, it doesn't make sense to apply to intern offers, and he could careless if people pull out of internship offers for "something better."

edgarderby wrote:I talked to a federal clerk today, that said that this applies to clerkships, it doesn't make sense to apply to intern offers, and he could careless if people pull out of internship offers for "something better."

At least to me, it would make more sense to apply it to internships, not clerkships. Are you talking about pulling out after accepting, or having to accept, because I was at least talking about having to accept the offer once it's made.

So you're supposed to take the first clerkship offer you get? I thought it was the other way around, because picking your job for a year is much more serious than picking an internship for 8 weeks. If you get stuck in an 8 week unpaid internship, when the chances of getting a paid legal job aren't great anyway, oh well. But if after applying, or getting an offer, you decide you can't afford taking a clerkship, or that a clerkship isn't for you, or that you want to work in a different location, etc, you're stuck for a year? (And what about applying for COA; if you get a district court first, you're stuck?) That's what doesn't make sense.

Well I took the job with mystery judge, but now of course I wonder if I should have gone to a law firm and taken the $25,000. I suppose pissing off a COA judge known to have anger problems is a bad idea though.

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Anonymous User wrote:Well I took the job with mystery judge, but now of course I wonder if I should have gone to a law firm and taken the $25,000. I suppose pissing off a COA judge known to have anger problems is a bad idea though.

Uh....YEAH!

starstruck393 wrote:

edgarderby wrote:I talked to a federal clerk today, that said that this applies to clerkships, it doesn't make sense to apply to intern offers, and he could careless if people pull out of internship offers for "something better."

At least to me, it would make more sense to apply it to internships, not clerkships. Are you talking about pulling out after accepting, or having to accept, because I was at least talking about having to accept the offer once it's made.

So you're supposed to take the first clerkship offer you get? I thought it was the other way around, because picking your job for a year is much more serious than picking an internship for 8 weeks. If you get stuck in an 8 week unpaid internship, when the chances of getting a paid legal job aren't great anyway, oh well. But if after applying, or getting an offer, you decide you can't afford taking a clerkship, or that a clerkship isn't for you, or that you want to work in a different location, etc, you're stuck for a year? (And what about applying for COA; if you get a district court first, you're stuck?) That's what doesn't make sense.

You're analyzing it from the applicants view. From the judges view, clerkships are serious business, internships are not.

The "don't reject offers" thing is really for clerkships, not internships. There are two main reasons for it. One, as people have noted, you risk offending the judge and hurting her/his relationship with your school. I know of one judge, for example, who had two individuals from a certain prestigious school turn down offers, and he no longer interviews people from that school. That is an extreme example, but judges do not seem to like you saying no.

The other reason is self-interested. Clerkship offers these days are exceedingly rare things. If you turn one down, you'll be kicking yourself in the fairly likely event you don't get another.

I don't think internships are as big of a deal. I am aware of someone who accepted a summer internship with a judge, and then later backed out of it, and there seemed to be no problem at all. I think the earlier poster was right that the judges just don't focus very much on the interns. The clerks generally manage them.

Anonymous User wrote:The "don't reject offers" thing is really for clerkships, not internships. There are two main reasons for it. One, as people have noted, you risk offending the judge and hurting her/his relationship with your school. I know of one judge, for example, who had two individuals from a certain prestigious school turn down offers, and he no longer interviews people from that school. That is an extreme example, but judges do not seem to like you saying no.

The other reason is self-interested. Clerkship offers these days are exceedingly rare things. If you turn one down, you'll be kicking yourself in the fairly likely event you don't get another.

I don't think internships are as big of a deal. I am aware of someone who accepted a summer internship with a judge, and then later backed out of it, and there seemed to be no problem at all. I think the earlier poster was right that the judges just don't focus very much on the interns. The clerks generally manage them.

So is the end result you just don't interview for courts that aren't your realistic top choice?