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Is it worth it to begin sending out resumes as a 1L when I don't have any grades yet and no legal experieince? Should I wait until January when I have my grades, or will it be too late?

The answer to this question probably depends some on the market you're targeting. For me it was definitely worth it. In my smaller market the bigger firms sometimes make offers to students from top schools before even seeing grades if they believe the student plans to stay after graduation. Some will complete their summer hiring by January. I have a couple interviews scheduled over break. Even if they both do decide to ask for grades before making a decision and mine turn out to be crappy, I'll have had about 5 hours to make a good impression at that point and at least have a better shot than I otherwise would have.

biglaw930 wrote:Is it worth it to begin sending out resumes as a 1L when I don't have any grades yet and no legal experieince? Should I wait until January when I have my grades, or will it be too late?

Firm jobs? Best idea would be to go back in time and send them out December 1.

biglaw930 wrote:Is it worth it to begin sending out resumes as a 1L when I don't have any grades yet and no legal experieince? Should I wait until January when I have my grades, or will it be too late?

It's already too late. That's a tad over-dramatic, but I know people who have already been hired at various positions (mostly with judges and professors) and are already interviewing for others. You need to get your materials out ASAP to have a fighting chance in this market.

For the record, I did everything between December 1st and December 3rd. I had 6 rejections, 2 interview requests, and an offer before December 20th. Big firms were the least receptive, small firms were tepid but not quite as flat out 'no 1Ls, at all, period', and judges were the most receptive. I focused on a major east coast market, big firms, and federal courts though - so depending on your goals / market, your mileage may vary.

To repeat once more: 1L positions are already being given out, and the competition for them will be more fierce than it has ever been given the number of firms that are jettisoning 1L hiring entirely. All it takes is a few hours, start cranking out applications ASAP.

Anonymous User wrote:

biglaw930 wrote:Is it worth it to begin sending out resumes as a 1L when I don't have any grades yet and no legal experieince? Should I wait until January when I have my grades, or will it be too late?

It's already too late. That's a tad over-dramatic, but I know people who have already been hired at various positions (mostly with judges and professors) and are already interviewing for others. You need to get your materials out ASAP to have a fighting chance in this market.

For the record, I did everything between December 1st and December 3rd. I had 6 rejections, 2 interview requests, and an offer before December 20th. Big firms were the least receptive, small firms were tepid but not quite as flat out 'no 1Ls, at all, period', and judges were the most receptive. I focused on a major east coast market, big firms, and federal courts though - so depending on your goals / market, your mileage may vary.

To repeat once more: 1L positions are already being given out, and the competition for them will be more fierce than it has ever been given the number of firms that are jettisoning 1L hiring entirely. All it takes is a few hours, start cranking out applications ASAP.

I'd say it's probably too late for firms, but not for most government jobs or judges.

Those saying it's too late for firms are either 1) trying to sabotage you so you don't bother applying or 2) are grossly misinformed.

That is all.

I figured it was a waste of time and money to even bother trying to find a SA position as a 1L. Pretty much nobody is getting hired for those spots unless the firm has some sort of diversity initiative to recruit for 1L summers. Being white and male and straight pretty much takes me out of the running for those, so I'm happy to take some PILF money and spend the summer at the courthouse.

For firms, it depends on the name of your school. If you go to a national school, I'd say get your apps out ASAP. But as others have said, these firms may have already hired. If you go to a lower ranked school, I think you should wait for grades. You won't get hired without them. The only people I know who got 1L biglaw jobs from a lower ranked school had top grades. For smaller firms, you might as well wait for grades. It's definitely not too late.

For every other type of employer, I'd apply ASAP without grades. Some judges/etc. may respond and say they don't hire until you have grades, but plenty of other employers will take unpaid interns without grades.

3 of the 12 firms I sent to have done their first round of cuts already. I know that's a tiny sample, but YES it is too late for at least some firms.

Once spoke to a recruiter at a major market V50. She said that there is literally a massive pile of resume packages on her desk by 12/2. It's pretty amazing. And this is, of course, not counting the crazy amount of emails she received.

I don't think it's too late, as I always think it's worth trying, but sending stuff out 20 days after 12/2 ain't doing you any favors. If the firm is going to hire 1Ls, it'll be SEO kids. If the firm still has space afterwards, they'll take URMs who will be in their city over break. If not URMs, then regular people in the city. Odds are that firms have already made up their minds as to whom they will invite for these interviews.

ISquareJudd wrote:Once spoke to a recruiter at a major market V50. She said that there is literally a massive pile of resume packages on her desk by 12/2. It's pretty amazing. And this is, of course, not counting the crazy amount of emails she received.

I don't think it's too late, as I always think it's worth trying, but sending stuff out 20 days after 12/2 ain't doing you any favors. If the firm is going to hire 1Ls, it'll be SEO kids. If the firm still has space afterwards, they'll take URMs who will be in their city over break. If not URMs, then regular people in the city. Odds are that firms have already made up their minds as to whom they will invite for these interviews.

Most firms (particularly V50) aren't going to hire 1Ls prior to receiving their 1st semester grades.

Most firms (particularly V50) aren't going to hire 1Ls prior to receiving their 1st semester grades.

Doesn't mean it's not too late to send in your stuff. What if the firm already has enough resumes from which to cull a list of promising candidates and solicit their transcripts? What if the firm wants to interview people before asking for grades, especially since those candidates might be in their city during the winter break (as they should have indicated in their cover letter)? Plenty of firms do either of these things.

Edit: Note what I said in my earlier post: "Odds are that firms have already made up their minds as to whom they will invite for these interviews." The fact that firms won't hire until seeing grades doesn't mean diddly squat.

so...

what types of jobs do you apply for with a judge over 1L summer?

what are some of the positions names, and what do you typically do?

thanks

ISquareJudd wrote:

Most firms (particularly V50) aren't going to hire 1Ls prior to receiving their 1st semester grades.

Doesn't mean it's not too late to send in your stuff. What if the firm already has enough resumes from which to cull a list of promising candidates and solicit their transcripts? What if the firm wants to interview people before asking for grades, especially since those candidates might be in their city during the winter break (as they should have indicated in their cover letter)? Plenty of firms do either of these things.

Edit: Note what I said in my earlier post: "Odds are that firms have already made up their minds as to whom they will invite for these interviews." The fact that firms won't hire until seeing grades doesn't mean diddly squat.

Fortunately for 1Ls, none of this is backed up by any evidence (at least it hasn't been to this point in the thread).

To the contrary, virtually every firm who attended the 1L Job Fair at my school on 12/1 said don't rush to submit your applications, since no one will have any grades back anyway. They said even January isn't too late. These weren't slouch firms either (Wachtell, Paul Weiss, Vinson, etc).

But before your last post, you didn't post evidence either...

Anyways, my evidence is experience (and your evidence doesn't contradict it. It could mean that... times have changed!)

These weren't slouch firms either (Wachtell, Paul Weiss, Vinson, etc).

Enjoy your 1L summer firm jobbie at Wachtell/Paul Weiss/Vinson!!!

Its absurd to even imply that its "too late" to apply for government and other non-firm jobs. Many have not yet begun taking applications, and those that have will be accepting them into January and February.

As for firms/biglaw jobs....They were difficult to get in even the best economy, and are nearly impossible to get now. Very few people will get them at all, and nobody is going to get them before grades come out. Applying as early as possible is helpful, but I have to question how much it really helps if there is a "massive pile" of resumes on the desk on Dec. 2nd. If your resume, sans grades, is spectacular enough to stand out from that massive pile, it won't matter whether you applied Dec. 2nd or Dec. 22nd.

Yes, you should get apps in as soon as possible. It can only help. Waiting to get grades is a poor choice, because A) you should take advantage of the time you have, and B) you don't know what your grades will look like. However, you aren't doomed simply because you chose to focus on finals instead of applying for pie in the sky, nearly unattainable jobs.

Many people will start applying Christmas break, and many more will wait until January, when grades come out. There is no need to start panicking, especially before Christmas. Save the panic for when 1L grades come in.

ISquareJudd wrote:But before your last post, you didn't post evidence either...

Anyways, my evidence is experience (and your evidence doesn't contradict it. It could mean that... times have changed!)

These weren't slouch firms either (Wachtell, Paul Weiss, Vinson, etc).

Enjoy your 1L summer firm jobbie at Wachtell/Paul Weiss/Vinson!!!

For your next trick, are you going to provide firm salary details based on old information as well? Cravath to 100!

Yes, you should get apps in as soon as possible. It can only help. Waiting to get grades is a poor choice, because A) you should take advantage of the time you have, and B) you don't know what your grades will look like. However, you aren't doomed simply because you chose to focus on finals instead of applying for pie in the sky, nearly unattainable jobs.

That sounds pretty good.

I think panicking, in general, about 1L summer firm jobs is silly, anyways.

I'm pretty humored that some firms are even putting on an act of looking at 1L resumes. I already know the 1L classes for some of them

For your next trick, are you going to provide firm salary details based on old information as well? Cravath to 100!

Yes, experience from 12/2008-1/2009 is completely irrelevant here...

Objection wrote:

ISquareJudd wrote:

Most firms (particularly V50) aren't going to hire 1Ls prior to receiving their 1st semester grades.

Doesn't mean it's not too late to send in your stuff. What if the firm already has enough resumes from which to cull a list of promising candidates and solicit their transcripts? What if the firm wants to interview people before asking for grades, especially since those candidates might be in their city during the winter break (as they should have indicated in their cover letter)? Plenty of firms do either of these things.

Edit: Note what I said in my earlier post: "Odds are that firms have already made up their minds as to whom they will invite for these interviews." The fact that firms won't hire until seeing grades doesn't mean diddly squat.

Fortunately for 1Ls, none of this is backed up by any evidence (at least it hasn't been to this point in the thread).

To the contrary, virtually every firm who attended the 1L Job Fair at my school on 12/1 said don't rush to submit your applications, since no one will have any grades back anyway. They said even January isn't too late. These weren't slouch firms either (Wachtell, Paul Weiss, Vinson, etc).

Actually I provided evidence above:
1) that some firms in my market hire 1L's from top schools before grades
2) that some firms in my market interview over break

Our career services told us that even in a good economy, most 1L's who score firm jobs do so in smaller markets they have connections to. For people who have this option, it is crucial to send resumes early enough that an interview can be scheduled over break if the firm wants to do so. That being said, this week might still not be too late.

Edit: I am the poster from the second post.

I did not post the above.

Anyways, a lot of it seems on the dot. Historically, the most 1L friendly firms are BigTex ones, but those are usually shut out for people who don't have Tex connections.

Where do you find judge and government jobs?

My apologies for being snarky with you before, Judd.

No need for it, really.

Objection wrote:My apologies for being snarky with you before, Judd.

No need for it, really.

It's cool man. Good luck, and cast a wide net.

biglaw930 wrote:Where do you find judge and government jobs?

You can go to court websites for judges.

You can also visit government websites for jobs, and you can check out the Government Honors and Internship Handbook: http://www.law.arizona.edu/career/honorshandbook.cfm (requires login from your CSO).