Top Law Schools

ari20dal7 wrote:I haven't posted here in forever, but I just finished my last 1L final yesterday and thought I owed the community a little bit of advice for the help I got. I think I'll just say a little bit and follow it up with a few bullet points.

Law school is not difficult in substance. I went to UCLA, which is an OK school and is pretty well regarded. If you're going to upper T14, maybe it will be harder for you. It was not hard for me. The reason it was not hard is that law school is a process. It rewards a very narrow skill set and provides no incentive to learn much at all. To do well in 1L classes (legal writing aside), you need to know how to do three things: briefly summarize a rule, type fast, and make arguments on the fly. That's it. You also need to figure out what your prof's G-spot is so that you can work it into your argument somehow. Knowing detailed fact patterns is useless. Memorizing details for fear of Socratic embarrassment is useless. Trying to put together a comprehensive two hundred page outline is useless. If you cannot fit all the law you need to know in a particular area (for example, acceptance in contracts) into two pages, this is probably because you do not understand the law in that area.

I did not learn all of this the hard way. I am lazy and do not like law school. I think the people are fine, but it's not my set at all. Therefore, I spent as little time at the law school as possible, probably studying about an hour a day five days a week on average. I went to about half of my classes. I got great grades (so far) and have no reason to expect that will not continue. Why do I tell you this? I tell you this because for most of us, whatever's going on at law school has very little to do with what we want to get out of it. How many of you are seriously interested in the philosophical implications of easements? How many of you really care about the difference between strict liability tort regimes and negligence-based regimes? Almost none of you, and if you don't know what those words mean, thanks for proving the point. Most of us care about getting good grades and good (read: well paying) jobs. Some of us have an interest that we hope to explore in law school, an interest that will consume fifteen percent of our time in class at best. A few of us actually want to help people. But Socratic methods and pointless briefing serves none of those objectives. Read the essay on "How to Succeed in Law School" on this site and, if you're not going to a really, really good school, cut out the bit about the hornbooks. Do not fall into the trap. If you're at something other than T6 and you're working ten hours a day, you're working four times too much.

Now, I should of course qualify this: your mileage may vary. You may read a little more slowly and need some more time. You may really care about the law, in which case feel free to knock yourself out. But I've seen nothing in a full year at what purports to be a good school that would indicate that the standard experience should vary all that much. If you do what's in that essay or even a scaled back version of it, you will win the dumbest game in graduate school. I should caution you: if you absolutely must finish #1 in the class, then do what's in that essay AND go crazy with the briefing. Just realize that the first 5% of your work will (presuming you know how to work) get you the first 90% of your results.

A few other random tips:

1) Watch out for the time suck. Law school will provide you with a deluge of stupidity designed to get you to spend every waking moment there. I found one thing I liked doing and did only that thing. Do not trick yourself into thinking "well, maybe I'll be interested in the drafting of contracts in widget law". If you want to do extracurricular thinking (as I do), whatever law school you consider will have a first rate university library. Use it. Read good books.

2) Avoid the temptation to talk about your own results. I guess there are a few people around TLS who know who I am, but most of them probably don't read this anymore. I've discussed my performance openly with only a couple of people here at the law school and only after I knew for sure that they were pretty straight up people who see the world in much the same way as I do. I think nothing is more pathetic than people who barely know you fishing for grades. Whether you got great grades or bad grades, act like you've been there before. You'll be less stressed.

3) Realize that, like it or not, the stupidity of your classmates serves your goals and the intelligence of your classmates is at best neutral. Don't go out of your way to work with everyone and form study groups. If you want to, then do it, I guess. But think about it this way: if you basically do the same thing as everyone else, you'll get basically the same results. In an awful economy, are you interested in putting your grades on the roulette wheel? Are you interested in hoping that the prof likes your IRAC better than the one that's exactly identical from the girl across the aisle? I wouldn't be. Learn how to summarize and type fast.

4) There are really a lot of things to like about law school. If you do it right, you'll have lots of time to pursue your own interests and people will assume you're busy. Great combination, if you ask me. I've met some really nice people and I haven't met a single person I dislike (very much). Don't waste what will probably be your last chance to read good books and watch more basketball than any reasonable person could stomach.

5) If you spend a lot of time, spend it on your memos. These are the thing where more time really does improve results. If your legal writing class is pass/fail, then who cares?

One last thing: I just read this and it sounds pretty arrogant and mean. That's not the intent. The intent is just to try and help many of you to see what I saw: the law school experience does nothing for you other than give you the ability to take a BarBri class and a set of credentials.

Also, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer.

Thanks for the advice. This is awesome. Also, I know you mentioned hornbooks are really only necessary at a T6 or so, and you said briefing is largely a waste of time. What supplements do you use? The E&E's? What pre-made briefs do you use?

Also, the how to essay on this site talks a bit about outlining. Do you start outlining from the very beginning of the semester, and then work on practice tests towards the exam? Or what's your strategy like?

Wouldn't things actually be easier at a T6 since, by and large, grades don't really matter?

1) Pre 1L prep: Should we do nothing? Skim/Read E&E etc.?
2) Any advice on taking notes in class? How did you figure out the prof's preferences?
3) When did you start outlining, looking at practice exams? How long were your outlines? Any special techniques you used?
4) You seem to be discouraging study groups...did you go solo? Or were you able to find "above-median" types?
5) How did you structure your exam answers to maximize points?
6) Sounds like you figured out some day-to-day short cuts that allowed you a great deal of free time while still getting great grades. What did your daily/weekly routine look like at the beginning/middle/end of the semester?
7) Did you find the advice of 2Ls and 3Ls useful? Especially as a 1L seems to me I won't know whose advice to trust because it's hard to know who's actually doing well.

Drake014 wrote:

ari20dal7 wrote:I haven't posted here in forever, but I just finished my last 1L final yesterday and thought I owed the community a little bit of advice for the help I got. I think I'll just say a little bit and follow it up with a few bullet points.

Law school is not difficult in substance. I went to UCLA, which is an OK school and is pretty well regarded. If you're going to upper T14, maybe it will be harder for you. It was not hard for me. The reason it was not hard is that law school is a process. It rewards a very narrow skill set and provides no incentive to learn much at all. To do well in 1L classes (legal writing aside), you need to know how to do three things: briefly summarize a rule, type fast, and make arguments on the fly. That's it. You also need to figure out what your prof's G-spot is so that you can work it into your argument somehow. Knowing detailed fact patterns is useless. Memorizing details for fear of Socratic embarrassment is useless. Trying to put together a comprehensive two hundred page outline is useless. If you cannot fit all the law you need to know in a particular area (for example, acceptance in contracts) into two pages, this is probably because you do not understand the law in that area.

I did not learn all of this the hard way. I am lazy and do not like law school. I think the people are fine, but it's not my set at all. Therefore, I spent as little time at the law school as possible, probably studying about an hour a day five days a week on average. I went to about half of my classes. I got great grades (so far) and have no reason to expect that will not continue. Why do I tell you this? I tell you this because for most of us, whatever's going on at law school has very little to do with what we want to get out of it. How many of you are seriously interested in the philosophical implications of easements? How many of you really care about the difference between strict liability tort regimes and negligence-based regimes? Almost none of you, and if you don't know what those words mean, thanks for proving the point. Most of us care about getting good grades and good (read: well paying) jobs. Some of us have an interest that we hope to explore in law school, an interest that will consume fifteen percent of our time in class at best. A few of us actually want to help people. But Socratic methods and pointless briefing serves none of those objectives. Read the essay on "How to Succeed in Law School" on this site and, if you're not going to a really, really good school, cut out the bit about the hornbooks. Do not fall into the trap. If you're at something other than T6 and you're working ten hours a day, you're working four times too much.

Now, I should of course qualify this: your mileage may vary. You may read a little more slowly and need some more time. You may really care about the law, in which case feel free to knock yourself out. But I've seen nothing in a full year at what purports to be a good school that would indicate that the standard experience should vary all that much. If you do what's in that essay or even a scaled back version of it, you will win the dumbest game in graduate school. I should caution you: if you absolutely must finish #1 in the class, then do what's in that essay AND go crazy with the briefing. Just realize that the first 5% of your work will (presuming you know how to work) get you the first 90% of your results.

A few other random tips:

1) Watch out for the time suck. Law school will provide you with a deluge of stupidity designed to get you to spend every waking moment there. I found one thing I liked doing and did only that thing. Do not trick yourself into thinking "well, maybe I'll be interested in the drafting of contracts in widget law". If you want to do extracurricular thinking (as I do), whatever law school you consider will have a first rate university library. Use it. Read good books.

2) Avoid the temptation to talk about your own results. I guess there are a few people around TLS who know who I am, but most of them probably don't read this anymore. I've discussed my performance openly with only a couple of people here at the law school and only after I knew for sure that they were pretty straight up people who see the world in much the same way as I do. I think nothing is more pathetic than people who barely know you fishing for grades. Whether you got great grades or bad grades, act like you've been there before. You'll be less stressed.

3) Realize that, like it or not, the stupidity of your classmates serves your goals and the intelligence of your classmates is at best neutral. Don't go out of your way to work with everyone and form study groups. If you want to, then do it, I guess. But think about it this way: if you basically do the same thing as everyone else, you'll get basically the same results. In an awful economy, are you interested in putting your grades on the roulette wheel? Are you interested in hoping that the prof likes your IRAC better than the one that's exactly identical from the girl across the aisle? I wouldn't be. Learn how to summarize and type fast.

4) There are really a lot of things to like about law school. If you do it right, you'll have lots of time to pursue your own interests and people will assume you're busy. Great combination, if you ask me. I've met some really nice people and I haven't met a single person I dislike (very much). Don't waste what will probably be your last chance to read good books and watch more basketball than any reasonable person could stomach.

5) If you spend a lot of time, spend it on your memos. These are the thing where more time really does improve results. If your legal writing class is pass/fail, then who cares?

One last thing: I just read this and it sounds pretty arrogant and mean. That's not the intent. The intent is just to try and help many of you to see what I saw: the law school experience does nothing for you other than give you the ability to take a BarBri class and a set of credentials.

Also, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer.

He gives useful info for those not in the T6. Can anyone verify that this information is still reasonable for the T6? It would make me feel better.

I call bullshit on the "you have to type at least 70 WPM to succeed in law school" theorem.

i sat in on a "review" torts class when i visted ND (as in it was the last class before finals), and the professor actually has a 2000 word limit on exams. I'm not saying OP is wrong... just noting that more words =/= better grades in all cases.

I have to admit this is pretty much TCOP. I especially agree with this point, and I would say put a lot of work into Legal Writing even if it is pass/fail. The skills you build writing a winning memo that even a working attorney would respect will help to make you fast and accurate and able to hit the sweet spot on exams, as long as you think about what you're doing and generalize your methods.

More important than any of this typing speed nonsense: do you think your advice of only needing to study 1.5 hours still matters in this economy? I don't know the exact timing but I don't think your class knew how bad things were getting until this semester?

I look forward to whooping your butt in court someday, Douche.

im curious why you think there is a difference in the study habits required between ucla and a t6? i always figured they would be roughly the same.

OP, word of advice - somewhat intelligent gamers like you can game school, and end up with nice mediocre careers. But there is a difference with those who truly excel, both in work ethic and top intelligence. You will realize this 10-15 years down the road as you join the malcontent whining band that gets lost in the crowd...

Drake014 wrote:

ari20dal7 wrote:I haven't posted here in forever, but I just finished my last 1L final yesterday and thought I owed the community a little bit of advice for the help I got. I think I'll just say a little bit and follow it up with a few bullet points.

Law school is not difficult in substance. I went to UCLA, which is an OK school and is pretty well regarded. If you're going to upper T14, maybe it will be harder for you. It was not hard for me. The reason it was not hard is that law school is a process. It rewards a very narrow skill set and provides no incentive to learn much at all. To do well in 1L classes (legal writing aside), you need to know how to do three things: briefly summarize a rule, type fast, and make arguments on the fly. That's it. You also need to figure out what your prof's G-spot is so that you can work it into your argument somehow. Knowing detailed fact patterns is useless. Memorizing details for fear of Socratic embarrassment is useless. Trying to put together a comprehensive two hundred page outline is useless. If you cannot fit all the law you need to know in a particular area (for example, acceptance in contracts) into two pages, this is probably because you do not understand the law in that area.

I did not learn all of this the hard way. I am lazy and do not like law school. I think the people are fine, but it's not my set at all. Therefore, I spent as little time at the law school as possible, probably studying about an hour a day five days a week on average. I went to about half of my classes. I got great grades (so far) and have no reason to expect that will not continue. Why do I tell you this? I tell you this because for most of us, whatever's going on at law school has very little to do with what we want to get out of it. How many of you are seriously interested in the philosophical implications of easements? How many of you really care about the difference between strict liability tort regimes and negligence-based regimes? Almost none of you, and if you don't know what those words mean, thanks for proving the point. Most of us care about getting good grades and good (read: well paying) jobs. Some of us have an interest that we hope to explore in law school, an interest that will consume fifteen percent of our time in class at best. A few of us actually want to help people. But Socratic methods and pointless briefing serves none of those objectives. Read the essay on "How to Succeed in Law School" on this site and, if you're not going to a really, really good school, cut out the bit about the hornbooks. Do not fall into the trap. If you're at something other than T6 and you're working ten hours a day, you're working four times too much.

Now, I should of course qualify this: your mileage may vary. You may read a little more slowly and need some more time. You may really care about the law, in which case feel free to knock yourself out. But I've seen nothing in a full year at what purports to be a good school that would indicate that the standard experience should vary all that much. If you do what's in that essay or even a scaled back version of it, you will win the dumbest game in graduate school. I should caution you: if you absolutely must finish #1 in the class, then do what's in that essay AND go crazy with the briefing. Just realize that the first 5% of your work will (presuming you know how to work) get you the first 90% of your results.

A few other random tips:

1) Watch out for the time suck. Law school will provide you with a deluge of stupidity designed to get you to spend every waking moment there. I found one thing I liked doing and did only that thing. Do not trick yourself into thinking "well, maybe I'll be interested in the drafting of contracts in widget law". If you want to do extracurricular thinking (as I do), whatever law school you consider will have a first rate university library. Use it. Read good books.

2) Avoid the temptation to talk about your own results. I guess there are a few people around TLS who know who I am, but most of them probably don't read this anymore. I've discussed my performance openly with only a couple of people here at the law school and only after I knew for sure that they were pretty straight up people who see the world in much the same way as I do. I think nothing is more pathetic than people who barely know you fishing for grades. Whether you got great grades or bad grades, act like you've been there before. You'll be less stressed.

3) Realize that, like it or not, the stupidity of your classmates serves your goals and the intelligence of your classmates is at best neutral. Don't go out of your way to work with everyone and form study groups. If you want to, then do it, I guess. But think about it this way: if you basically do the same thing as everyone else, you'll get basically the same results. In an awful economy, are you interested in putting your grades on the roulette wheel? Are you interested in hoping that the prof likes your IRAC better than the one that's exactly identical from the girl across the aisle? I wouldn't be. Learn how to summarize and type fast.

4) There are really a lot of things to like about law school. If you do it right, you'll have lots of time to pursue your own interests and people will assume you're busy. Great combination, if you ask me. I've met some really nice people and I haven't met a single person I dislike (very much). Don't waste what will probably be your last chance to read good books and watch more basketball than any reasonable person could stomach.

5) If you spend a lot of time, spend it on your memos. These are the thing where more time really does improve results. If your legal writing class is pass/fail, then who cares?

One last thing: I just read this and it sounds pretty arrogant and mean. That's not the intent. The intent is just to try and help many of you to see what I saw: the law school experience does nothing for you other than give you the ability to take a BarBri class and a set of credentials.

Also, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer.

He gives useful info for those not in the T6. Can anyone verify that this information is still reasonable for the T6? It would make me feel better.

Have you ever thought that it might all be a game?

how many practice tests did you take per class? when did you start taking practice tests?

JSUVA2012 wrote:For anyone talking shit about Ari, just know he was one of the most mild-mannered, reasoned, and helpful posters last cycle. He's not the type to come back here to brag about his efficiency or be arrogant. I assume he's just being honest.

That is all.

worldtraveler wrote:

JSUVA2012 wrote:For anyone talking shit about Ari, just know he was one of the most mild-mannered, reasoned, and helpful posters last cycle. He's not the type to come back here to brag about his efficiency or be arrogant. I assume he's just being honest.

That is all.

If people actually think Ari is a douche, I worry about them interacting with the real world. He's quite possibly one of the most sensible and polite people ever to be on TLS. I think he was just giving blunt advice to be as helpful as possible.

Apparently people can hate on you for anything.

worldtraveler wrote:

JSUVA2012 wrote:For anyone talking shit about Ari, just know he was one of the most mild-mannered, reasoned, and helpful posters last cycle. He's not the type to come back here to brag about his efficiency or be arrogant. I assume he's just being honest.

That is all.

If people actually think Ari is a douche, I worry about them interacting with the real world. He's quite possibly one of the most sensible and polite people ever to be on TLS. I think he was just giving blunt advice to be as helpful as possible.

Apparently people can hate on you for anything.

Sweet Moses, I'd love it if I could.

Truth be told, I don't completely see it. I'll probably get up and go to bed earlier. The Cardinals come first, so I'll never be studying to miss a Cardinal game. I'll try to get my workouts and personal stuff done before the first class starts. Then, I can study in between classes and in the time between the last class and the baseball game. Then, I'll probably go exercise again and study for a little while after that. So I could see putting in a few less hours during the week and a few more on the weekends.

So I'm hoping to do something like:

5:15 - wake up/read for myself/eat some breakfast
6:00 - exercise
7:30 - get some light studying in
9:00 - head over to class

Then class and studying in whatever schedule they put me on.

Around 3, I assume classes will be over, so I'll study till five, which is when most Cardinal games will start.

Around eight, I'll go exercise again, then get in an hour of studying before bed. So, on the average day, I'm looking at studying a couple hours less than X. I'd like to make that up by doing a little more on Saturday and Sunday.

Of course, the Cardinal games will end in late October (certainly not at the end of September, right?). So I'll have more time to study for finals.

Now for the bad news - Cardinal games start in April of the spring semester.......I had better hammer the fall.....

The key thing will be getting into whatever routine my class schedule allows. I'm usually pretty good about sticking to a set schedule as long as the schedule doesn't make my personal priorities impossible. Since my personal priorities are the Cardinals, we're good.

But yeah, X has given us some amazing info, and we're lucky he did that.

sirhitch wrote: well what in the world happened to this?