Harvard ASW-W-WHAT! Forum

[ndnlawdc]

KP, I met you too. We were at the same lunch table -- I was the guy who said he wanted to do Indian law to your left.

[Pumpkin]

wow ndn, harvard won you over that easily from michigan? have you stopped considering nyu? i'm still stuck on my three way fence but leaning away from michigan although they are so nice, they make me feel guilty

[ndnlawdc]

Here we go. I’m copying Objection’s format. A few caveats:
- Not thinking about or discussing Yale. I’m not expecting to be admitted, so I was focused on comparing Harvard to free Michigan/the prospect of free NYU.
- I tried to hate Harvard going in, so I wouldn’t have to worry about the money issue. It didn’t work.
- I have a lot of “other” factors to consider. My wife needs to be happy, and we need a good church fit.

General:

Again, I tried to hate Harvard. We walked around Harvard Square on Friday night and weren’t impressed, but we liked it a lot better in the days following. We were staying at the Hotel Marlowe near Lechmere/Kendall, and didn’t really like that area at all (but the hotel was great!).

We took the bus through Inman and walked around Central a bit, and decided we could really enjoy living in Cambridge. As I said, Harvard Square itself grew on me over the weekend (as things warmed up!), and I’d love to live close to all that stuff.

All my concerns about HLS were addressed, and I even feel more comfortable about the money thing.

Apparently the bar that everyone went to was terrible, which makes me glad I didn’t go. We like going out to bars, but we tend to like the laid-back vibe (for DC folks, think Tryst or Looking Glass Lounge).

People:

All very accomplished, and generally really nice. I had been worried, to be honest, about whether I could “keep up” with these folks. I went to a no-name state school (seriously, you’ve never heard of it) and never have had a really rigorous academic experience. Those “fears” (which were probably irrational to begin with) were allayed at the opener when I realized that these folks were like a giant room full of Truman Scholars. Since some of my closest friends are Scholars from my year, this was pretty exciting to me.

There were a couple of douchey “Hahvad” types, but I generally ignored them. Most folks were down-to-earth and sincere.

One big fear I had was that my wife wouldn’t fit in at all. That was absolutely not the case – she said, again, that it was like a room full of our friends. Insofar as people aren’t determined to just be friends with law students, she’s convinced she can be friends with these folks. Plus, she’s a pastry chef, making her very popular.

We’re quite serious about faith, and we really enjoyed our dinner with the HLS Christian Fellowship. Not only was the food (Indian) great, but I felt like there would be a really supportive community at the law school. Most of them attend the church we visited (Christ the King Presbyterian), and they testified to the fact that I will in fact have time to spend with my wife and she will be treated as part of the community. Apparently, their law school baby is graduating, and they indicated they’d like another. We also loved the church, and can easily see ourselves there.

Faculty:

I thought the Negotiation exercise was fine, though it did seem like an odd choice. I wonder if HLS tried to think of their most dynamic, jeans-clad, young professor – and then structured the session around him. I thought the exercise was fine, though it didn’t take our group the full 20 minutes to decide who lived and who died.

Ronald Sullivan is great – we apparently had a very different experience from the A-M group. There was no cold calling, but there was a lively back and forth.

I was in Randall Kennedy’s class on race, and it was even more laid back. It was almost a negative – it seemed like Prof. Kennedy thought out loud for a significant part of the class. Several students Oyez-ed or Wikipedia-ed the case when it was brought up, and lots of folks were g-chatting or facebooking. I liked the class generally, though the subject matter is extremely interesting to me. A very nice student introduced herself before class and made herself available for questions afterward if I had any.

I think the faculty is generally quite strong, and you can probably find someone to agree to just about any topic of research, etc.

Campus/Area:

We didn’t really love East Cambridge, where we stayed. We were right next to the mall, which was “meh.” We did cave and get cheesecake from Cheesecake Factory one evening.

Harvard Square was perfectly nice – the Coop is the best bookstore I’ve ever been in. There were lots of cute (man, I’ve been married too long! “CUTE?”) restaurants and shops. My wife spent far too much time eying up the Harvard baby stuff for my comfort. We got dessert at Finale one night, and pizza at Cambridge1 the next night, and enjoyed them both.

Boston itself is surprising. We spent one day in the North End, doing touristy things, and weren’t particularly impressed. There was a very impressive farmer’s market (the kind that existed before they got trendy) at Haymarket. The last couple of days we spent in the South End and Back Bay areas, which we really enjoyed. Seemed like the perfect tension between New York and DC, in my opinion. We found a lot of cool coffee shops and places to hang out. And the coolest, largest Apple Store ever. If I didn’t want to live so close to the law school, we’d probably end up living out that-a-way. We spent the afternoon at the Institute of Contemporary Art which was just great. They had an exhibition in Shepard Fairey (of Obama HOPE print fame), and we found out that he was the one who painted a painting on an abandoned building next to our DC apartment building.

The campus itself was fine. Pound wasn’t impressive, but the library was seriously impressive. Like, “wow, this is HARVARD” impressive. All the classroom facilities were nice, and Austin Hall was nice as well. Free coffee is great, and I appreciated hearing that the free coffee won’t be a casualty of the economic downturn.

After visiting Boston, my wife is convinced that she won’t be happy in Ann Arbor. I’m going to visit to see for myself, but I’m inclined to think we’ll be happier in Cambridge, given our urban bent.

Size

I was in a tiny department in undergrad, so I’m a little tired of the incestuous interactions between folks in small schools. Neither Michigan, NYU, or Harvard is particularly small, so I’m not counting this as a big factor.

Housing

Harvard Affiliated Housing is a big plus, but I’d really rather have a dishwasher for my pastry chef wife. That’s a big complaint about our current place – her baking projects turn our galley kitchen into a disaster that takes hours to clean. There are plenty of places in Cambridge though, and HAH is a great option to maximize location and minimize rent. We’d still have a car though, and that might be an issue.

Financial Aid

Hopefully they’ll be generous. I felt like there was a nice tension between “we do this for 1300 students per year, it’s routine” and “we’ll help you out personally if you need it.” I don’t think LIPP will ever work for me, unless I want to do a Skadden or something abroad where my family can actually live on $45k. The LRAP is where Yale excels.

Public Interest

Alexa Shabecoff is amazing. The OPIA folks were amazing. Did anyone else catch that part about them funding 12 positions for HLS grads to do what they really wanted to do post-graduation?

There’s a strong public interest community, and I’m convinced there’s no place with more public interest resources. Period.

Summary

Again, I’m visiting NYU and Michigan with an open mind. I’m not at all certain I’ll be offered the AnByrce, and I’d probably turn down the Root. I thought I would take it when the interview was offered, but now I just don't think I can commit to anything for ten years. Maybe Ann Arbor will be amazing. Maybe Michigan will win me over with its gothic architecture, academics, and collegial atmosphere. But I’m not counting on it.

[dueprocess14]

Ok, before I am disparaged any more for bringing friends, let me just say while I think you guys are right, it definitely can color the weekend, I think it only really affected my Saturday experience (which was the negotiation panel and the reception). Sunday and Monday I was on my own, apart from a friend joining up (and then leaving) the sketchy bar, and unlike all of you, I had a great time at the sketchy bar (free drinks! how can anyone complain?), so I don't think my friend being there hurt the experience. I felt it was really easy to meet people and I didn't feel very outside my comfort zone at all during the weekend - a testament to my very friendly and laid back fellow admitted students! And for the record, that bar really wasn't that sketchy...I've been to some real dives and that wasn't even close!

Further, if anything, I think my slightly less forgiving attitude came as a result of coming straight from a wonderful experience at Yale and being greeted by a bunch of tools at Harvard. If you want to PM me I will tell you more about my Friday night, but I very much watered down what happened out of decorum and the fact that the forums are a small community, so who knows who's reading this. Nevertheless, it was pretty appalling, and really hurt my perception of HLS right off the bat (another Admitted Student was there as well, and we ran into each other later in the weekend and agreed about how poorly they sold their school).

For the record, the weekend got much better after that, but here's the rub: At the ASW, you mostly hang out with other ADMITTED students. Not attending students. Keep this in mind - the people you loved, clicked with, etc., may very well end up somewhere else. Therefore, most of my sensory inputs were the students ALREADY at the school, because they will be better representatives of it than the admitted students. Many of my favorite fellow admits were seriously considering other schools, so I can't say I'm sure they will attend HLS. Some of the people I found most offensive were current HLS students. Like someone else said, I was put off by the fact that multiple people I talked to would only even ENTERTAIN Yale as a legitimate option over HLS. At Yale no one scoffed at me for considering Stanford, NYU or Berkeley (except Koh...), and they were very willing to talk pros and cons, including at Yale. People at HLS seemed to act like the reputation of being Harvard immunized it from any form of weakness.

I also agree with a lot of what KP said about H vs. Y, and it was confirmed by faculty I spoke to at HLS. I asked point blank to several faculty if having more international law classes at Harvard meant I would have some sort of advantage that I couldn't get at Yale. They both contended that given Yale's very flexible curriculum, the fact that it's Yale, and generally gung-ho attitude Yale students have, the classroom component is relatively minor in the scope of 3 years there. Taking an international criminal law seminar is not going to help you as much as spending a summer at the Hague, and while both schools probably can send many students to such opportunities, I got a stronger sense at Yale that it could very easily be done. The "here's your timber and plot of land, build whatever you want" approach is extremely appealing to me, and hearing all of the things kids at Yale do with that timber is pretty inspiring. I'm sure people at HLS do the exact same things, but the weekend was not sold to me like that, it was sold to me as "HLS can be everything to everyone all the time." And just like many New Yorkers, many HLS students seemed to think very little existed outside of New York/HLS!

There are definitely some huge pros to Harvard. I think HLS gives a fuller classroom education and it would be much easier to engage rigorously with black letter law training. I love what they're doing with their curriculum, and I think the winter term sounds absolutely fantastic. I think the faculty is larger, so it would be almost impossible not to find a niche if you worked at it. I think there are more women and minority faculty members, which is really important, especially since the law is a very white male institution in the US. I think if you suddenly discover as a 2L you love [fill in the blank] type of law, you will have great opportunities in most instances to keep pursuing that at HLS.

However, at the end of the day, for me at least, the most valuable part of my education (I'm at my third university now, having transferred during undergrad) has always been the fellow students, and I guess I just came away from HLS with a much more mixed sense of the students than at Yale. I still need to go to Berkeley and Stanford ASWs before I know whether this is something unique to Yale, unique to Harvard, neither, or both, but I guess I got a stronger "vibe" (however inarticulate this is) from Yale than I did from Harvard, and I don't think this is just because I had friends in town. Before you think I have Yale-o-vision, I visited NYU earlier last week (for half a day, so I'm loathe to make any generalizations) and got a fantastic vibe from the place, students, faculty and campus from my brief time there. Also, the fact that HLS 1Ls effectively reintroduced grades by figuring out what the curve was and where they stood only reinforces my perception of HLS kids as much more grade-obsessed. That most sections had over 90% participation tells me people still care very deeply about their grades, H/P/LP/F or not!

Finally, in my experiences with the administrations of several schools, HLS has also reinforced the factory stereotype it sometimes gets. Several schools very quickly (and very nicely) processed my financial aid and offered my astoundingly generous awards. Other schools that give merit offers were also quick and have been very friendly. In contrast, at HLS I have been back and forth with the financial aid office about 6 times as they keep requesting more and more tax forms from my mother (who I am completely independent from) before I can get even a preliminary award. Literally, they have asked for supplementals to supplementals, and now want her to fill out a 5-page questionnaire for each of three partnerships she has some hand in participating in (these are really small and collectively provide a couple thousand dollars in income). She had to call them herself just to figure out what they were asking for. I don't understand why they need pages and pages of tiny details in order to process a preliminary offer?! My mom is now refusing to fill out any more "invasive" (her words) paperwork and I'm sort of stuck as to what to do next...

Sorry if I come off as a downer. I really was excited about HLS when I got the shiny binder and the fancy email address, and I still think there are lots of great things to recommend about HLS. But I guess my interactions with the school since I got my admissions materials, at least from my vantage point, confirmed some of the negative stereotypes people have about the school, and I guess it has started to affect my overall perception of the place. I'm really glad to hear others had very different experiences at the ASW and I think like anything, we color our own perceptions to a very large degree. Many people went in with lowered expectations, and I think mine were very high. However, I do think my concerns about HLS stem from more than having a few friends in town last weekend.

As always, I'm eager to hear other people's thoughts and counter-assessments, and I want to reiterate that I think I would be VERY fortunate and happy to be at HLS for three years if things were to end up that way.

[FrenchiePatootie]

I did have a great time at Harvard but I'm not sure I fell in love with the school. In other words, I really hope I can eventually have Stanford to compare it with, though I am very grateful to even have HLS as an option.

[shuchong]

Am I the only one that has heard complaints about the H/P/LP/F system? Did anyone talk to current students about this at the ASW? (I'm shamelessly trolling for info, because I couldn't go.)

The two Harvard students that I've had in-depth conversations with both said they'd rather go back to grades. Granted, the new system hasn't been in place very long, and it could be that everyone's still just trying to adjust, but they felt that H/P/LP/F made people more gunnerish (it's a word, dang it!). Their view was that before, you could distinguish yourself by grades alone, whereas now there are fewer gradations, so people are brown-nosing more, competing with profs for face time, etc.

By the way, both these students were people that the admissions office put me in contact with. One chose Harvard over Yale, and the other chose Harvard over Columbia with the Hamilton. A lot of our conversation revolved specifically around Chinese law, which is what I'd want to do if I went into academia, but I'd be happy to share my notes (yeah, I took notes... do not laugh at me). Just PM me if you want them

[Objection]

I'm not going to respond to the other points you made because, well, I'm lazy. But I wanted to address one particularly point.

• “I just feel that at Harvard you have more options. If you want to do something at Harvard, you can. The same can’t always be said at Yale, and that to me is the biggest advantage Harvard has.” – Honestly, this is definitely not what I took away from Harvard. The assumption here is that Harvard excels in all areas it offers classes.

This actually isn't the assumption. I meant exactly what I said: If you want to do something at Harvard, you can. The same can't always be said for Yale. Using your example of the sports law clinic - perhaps Harvard's sports law clinic isn't the greatest thing in the world. But guess what? Yale doesn't even have one. So if you decide you want to do Sports Law, you would have been better off choosing HLS by default. And going back to the example of international law - Yale is essentially a TTT in international law compared to HLS. For anyone who has any interest in studying abroad, your only option is HLS.

Harvard is not a “9 across the board.”

Maybe not, but I think that HLS would end up with a higher average score than would Yale, despite the fact that Yale has a few 10s and HLS doesn't.

Sure, there are specialties at Harvard that don’t exist at Yale and other specialties that Harvard reigns supreme in. However, a larger curriculum /=/ better opportunities in more fields post-law school.

I never said this. In fact, I said that your opportunities are going to be the same post-law school. You will get any job you want from either school.

Their view was that before, you could distinguish yourself by grades alone, whereas now there are fewer gradations, so people are brown-nosing more, competing with profs for face time, etc.

Brown-nosing isn't really a big deal, is it? It doesn't affect the curve. It doesn't hinder you. I don't know, when I think of gunner I think of people trying to sabotage or just not help you in order to get the top grade. I don't care about brown-nosing and sucking up since you are graded anonymously.

[iagolives]

The LRAP is where Yale excels.

From everything I've heard and read, +1

[excitedutterance]

(also, if you were the guy who kept raising his hand when she was clearly just going to call on people, please stop. It was kind of rude and your future classmates won't appreciate that gunnerism)

Haha. Agreed. No one needs a negative reputation this early--keep it in check.

[shuchong]

Brown-nosing isn't really a big deal, is it? It doesn't affect the curve. It doesn't hinder you. I don't know, when I think of gunner I think of people trying to sabotage or just not help you in order to get the top grade. I don't care about brown-nosing and sucking up since you are graded anonymously.

You're right, Objection, I think it would be more an annoyance than an actual hindrance. I'm still kind of worried about it though because 1) it was a point that the current Harvard students I've talked to brought up as something that has colored their experience this past semester and 2) if other, more aggressive, students are competing for the attentions of specific professors, then I might not be able to get the most out of class discussions or get the attention that I would need if I wanted to go into academia.

Also, there's nothing I hate more than having a productive conversation hijacked by somebody who just likes to hear himself/herself talk. That's what I think of when I think of a gunner.

Not that this worry is in any way specific to Harvard. I'm pretty sure I'll run into people like this wherever I go, and it probably won't be that big a deal. I'll just roll my eyes and move on:) But, since I'm trying to decide between a school with letter grades, a school that has been without them for ages, and a school that just dropped them, I'm curious as to what effect, if any, the H/P/LP/F system has had at Harvard.

[Objection]

PS: Objection, one of my friends was reading over my shoulder as I was reading your opinions of the TLS people you met and when she saw you called me “down to earth” she literally laughed until there were tears. I’m glad I came off better this weekend than I apparently have for the past four years of school

Ha! That surprises me. When I say down to Earth I mean unpretentious, likable...just an every day chill sort of person. Do you come across another way at school?

Another gem of my visit was some girl's mom asking in the financial aid session how to protect her trust fund in the financial aid process.

Thankfully I missed that or I would have instantly vomited.

[hlsjd12]

Let's all be humble.

[franfair]

.

[KP429]

Using your example of the sports law clinic - perhaps Harvard's sports law clinic isn't the greatest thing in the world. But guess what? Yale doesn't even have one. So if you decide you want to do Sports Law, you would have been better off choosing HLS by default. And going back to the example of international law - Yale is essentially a TTT in international law compared to HLS. For anyone who has any interest in studying abroad, your only option is HLS.

I wanted to respond to this briefly by saying that the current kids I know at Yale have had far more success in "Sports Law" than the kids at Harvard with a clinic and dedicated faculty member/visiting professor. I know for a fact I wouldn't be "better off" choosing HLS by default. The kids at Yale have found work in the sports & entertainment field without a clinic and without a single sports law class offered. By working with faculty members/doing independent research, some of what they've done is amazing. Being at Yale also gives one the flexibility to travel to NYC, which is where all of the 3 major professional sport associations are headquartered. With that said, this is just the case for sports law and I agree to an extent that in a more "institutionalized" field Harvard's advantage in international law over Yale is probably worth noting.

I will be attending April ASW and I just want to say that some of you guys (not all) come across as kind of arrogant, an outsider reading this board would view some people on here as the most ungrateful, arrogant, self-entitled, scum of the earth. I guess what i am trying to say is that realize what a great position we are all in and stop complaining so much, Most of the people on this thread are going to T-6 School, and I understand comparing and contrasting but the way some people on here talk about harvard like its a shyt school is a little annoying, i shudder to think what they would be saying about lower ranked schools had they got 2 or 3 more questions on the LSAT wrong. Imagine how people who are going to T-30 schools feel when they see people complaining about "job placement in Sports Law" WTF; its just mind boggling to me especially in the sense that a year ago (when you didn't know your LSAT score) you guys would have killed to get into Harvard, but now that you are in you start to lose perspective of the world and think you are entitled to something. I can attest to this myself as i found myself ripping my friend for thinking about going to USC Gould Law School, i think everyone in this thread should visit a project, an Indian Slum, even small town America where people don't make more then 20K or 30K and humble themselves down a bit, sorry for the rant but i couldn't not say something.

-I'm a lurker, but i just had to say something.........And there are a lot of nice people in this thread (objection and some others)

Assuming this post is directed towards me (kudos to the subtle sports law reference), I am surprised at how judgmental your post is after trying to take the moral high ground against people like me. I'm shelling out over $150,000 to go to law school and I think I have the right to be critical of aspects of the school that I find overrated/underrated/overhyped etc. Sorry, but I do feel entitled in the sense that I don't want to make the "wrong" (however wrong it might be) six-figure investment. My bad. I actually grew up in a very poor neighborhood and don't think that seeing an "Indian slum" would give me any more perspective. If you want to get defensive that someone isn't riding Harvard's jock that's fine -- but my point is not to disparage the school, but to offer additional perspective to those who might be in the same/similar situation as myself. If that makes me "ungrateful, arrogant, self-entitled, and a 'scum of the earth,'" I apologize. But don't conflate critical comparison with complaining.

I actually agree with a lot of what's been said in support of Harvard and really do think it would be great to be there. Like I said, it would be a no-brainer for me unless there was significant money involved from a place like Columbia (or a Yale acceptance). I am thrilled with the opportunity to attend Harvard, but I'm not going to enroll there blindly.

[hlsjd12]

I respect your opinion but i stand by mine.

[pinkflamingo]

hlsjd12- I understand your (previously deleted) point, and I don't think you're targeting me either, but I'd like to at least defend the comments that others have made. I think nearly all of us recognize that choosing between any of the top law schools is a very fortunate position to be in. Despite the fact that I really enjoyed the Harvard ASW, I appreciate everyone else's comments and criticism (thank you all for all of your thoughts and perspectives). This is one of the only places that people can be openly critical of top law schools, because the people in this forum are in the same position and can understand; I can't have these kind of conversations with my friends. I don't think anyone has been too arrogant, just honest and open about what they like and don't like. In reality, I think most of us are extremely humbled by our acceptances, and just want to ensure that we make the best decision for each of us--considering this will be one of the most expensive choices we will have to make.

edit: KP429 beat me to it.

[ndnlawdc]

We Priceline-d the Marriott for a dinner at HLS next month. Any thoughts on that place from those who stayed there this weekend? Not that we can change it...

[Objection]

I do wish I would have gotten to meet pink and KP

They would have loved the group I was hanging out with soooo much they'd have already submitted their deposits.

We Priceline-d the Marriott for a dinner at HLS next month. Any thoughts on that place from those who stayed there this weekend? Not that we can change it...

The Marriott is great. Great location (right on the T), nice rooms, etc. I didn't stay there, but swung by one evening to drop my stuff off in a friend's room. So much better than the Hyatt.

[hlsjd12]

Yeah i deleted it; a little too self-righteous but i just talked to an individual that was laid off from a Chicken Plant for over 2 hours with them stressing about what they're gonna do, and then reading this thread kind of touched a nerve.....

[SparkyLives]

The more critical posts have been the most helpful, TBH....I pretty much get what's great about Harvard, I want to know what's not so great. Just the other side of the coin, or whatever.

[mightyaphrodite]

We Priceline-d the Marriott for a dinner at HLS next month. Any thoughts on that place from those who stayed there this weekend? Not that we can change it...

I stayed there for the ASW and I really liked it! I thought the staff was really pleasant, the room was decently sized, and the bed was very comfortable. There's also a flat screen HDTV in the room. The drawback was that they did charge for internet, but I had a way around that so it didn't affect me too much. This was, however, mitigated by the presence of a super efficient Starbucks in the lobby and the uber convenience of the T right outside the back doors of the hotel.

[pinkflamingo]

I do wish I would have gotten to meet pink and KP

They would have loved the group I was hanging out with soooo much they'd have already submitted their deposits.

Like ndn said, we might just have three years to hang out.

[ndnlawdc]

The more critical posts have been the most helpful, TBH....I pretty much get what's great about Harvard, I want to know what's not so great. Just the other side of the coin, or whatever.

I'll say the OMGWE'REHARVARD!!!!! thing got a slight bit old by the end. The most helpful emphasis along those lines (from HLS) is that employers tend to react to the name in the same way. They react to Yale similarly, but I doubt they react to Michigan as strongly.

Anyone else get a chuckle out of the closing session slip? "The city of Chicago... errm... Boston... yeah"

The lady in charge of academics had been at Chicago before Harvard, apparently.

[iagolives]

Anyone else get a chuckle out of the closing session slip? "The city of Chicago... errm... Boston... yeah"

The lady in charge of academics had been at Chicago before Harvard, apparently.

Hahahaha, I had to leave before the closing session but I wish I would have been there for that. Schadenfreude FTW.

[iagolives]

PS: Objection, one of my friends was reading over my shoulder as I was reading your opinions of the TLS people you met and when she saw you called me “down to earth” she literally laughed until there were tears. I’m glad I came off better this weekend than I apparently have for the past four years of school

Ha! That surprises me. When I say down to Earth I mean unpretentious, likable...just an every day chill sort of person. Do you come across another way at school?

I guess not. Granted, if I said anything else, I would be praising myself and I suppose come across as pretentious... Hmmmm...