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Esc wrote:

JazzOne wrote:Is it bad that I am in no way interested in clerking? What the hell does a judicial clerk do?

Wiki is our friend! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_clerk

A law clerk or a judicial clerk is a person who provides assistance to a judge in researching issues before the court and in writing opinions. Law clerks are not court clerks or courtroom deputies, who are administrative staff for the court.

Most law clerks are recent law school graduates who were at the very top of their class and graduated from the most prestigious law schools.[1] Various studies have shown clerks to be influential in the formation of case law through their influence on judges' decisions. Working as a law clerk generally opens up career opportunities.

If you don't want to clerk, we won't force you to.

I'm just wondering how important of a stepping stone that kind of job is. Do you guys want to clerk out of personal desire? Or is it completely career motivated? Or a combination of both?

Definitely both. On one hand, I do believe that I would find the work interesting for a year or two, and the idea of working with a judge and helping them craft their decisions on important issues would be awesome. But clerking would also give me more time to figure out what I want to do in the rest of my career, and would give me the star-studded resume boost that would make me competitive for any job that I decide to pursue.

Former federal law clerks are generally highly sought by large firms. Firms believe that such individuals have excellent legal research and writing skills, and a strong command of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Firms are even more interested in a former law clerk if the firm generally appears before the clerk's former judge. The interest in former law clerks is seen by the fact that most large firms have a special hiring process for former clerks, and often pay such individuals large signing bonuses.

While I'm not interested in Biglaw, the same applies for prestigious public service and public interest jobs, in the event that I end up going for, say, a job with the DOJ or a nationally known non-profit.

This is definitely something I'm wondering about as well.....

For people that are interested in BigLaw, is there still a worthwhile return on clerkships, beyond personal interest, translating into more opportunities / financial reward?

I have a friend that is a 3L at UT this year who is going to London for BigLaw after she graduates, she said that it wasn't worth the sacrifice to her. I know that she had good grades, somewhere in the top 25% of her class I believe.

The main reason I'm concerned is because I'm interested in clerking (assuming I end up being in a competitive position after the hell of 1L). However, at the same time, given my financial background (CPA - ewwwww), and the amount of debt I will have after graduation (minor scholarship, I guess I'm just vanilla), there is a high probability I will end up in BigLaw for at least a few years. This isn't to say that I'm power hungry, nor is it meant to imply that I have anything against public interest; it's just a realistic prediction.

Glad to see the board has lit back up and we finally got over the damn chocolate discussion

SSDD wrote:This is definitely something I'm wondering about as well.....

For people that are interested in BigLaw, is there still a worthwhile return on clerkships, beyond personal interest, translating into more opportunities / financial reward?

I have a friend that is a 3L at UT this year who is going to London for BigLaw after she graduates, she said that it wasn't worth the sacrifice to her. I know that she had good grades, somewhere in the top 25% of her class I believe.

The main reason I'm concerned is because I'm interested in clerking (assuming I end up being in a competitive position after the hell of 1L). However, at the same time, given my financial background (CPA - ewwwww), and the amount of debt I will have after graduation (minor scholarship, I guess I'm just vanilla), there is a high probability I will end up in BigLaw for at least a few years. This isn't to say that I'm power hungry, nor is it meant to imply that I have anything against public interest; it's just a realistic prediction.

Glad to see the board has lit back up and we finally got over the damn chocolate discussion

don't badmouth the chocolate

i'm also a cpa! and don't complain about your debt...you're in-state right?

f0bolous wrote:
don't badmouth the chocolate

i'm also a cpa! and don't complain about your debt...you're in-state right?

I am in-state; my scholly was just enough to offset the tuition bump. I'm glad I found another cpa! It makes me feel less guilty about turning down the dredges of Big 4 Accounting and actually doing what I want with my life

I'll try to minimize my bitching about the debt; I'm from a pretty debt averse lot, but yes, I know I'm getting a damn good deal.

The chocolate was great! The best I've felt about myself in months was when I was able to offer the turtles to my folks as a symbol of my appreciation for all they've done...... wow, not a fair trade

Im also on that CPA track. Passed all the parts just need another 3 months to hit my year. Probably going to have to work for a CPA during law school to get them.

blackknight wrote:Im also on that CPA track. Passed all the parts just need another 3 months to hit my year. Probably going to have to work for a CPA during law school to get them.

That exam was a pain (especially FAR)! I passed and I'm a few months short as well; I was able to claim time from my internships and jobs I had while in college. I guess I shouldn't walk around calling myself a cpa... I'm guess I'm still just a half ass accountant

blackknight wrote:Im also on that CPA track. Passed all the parts just need another 3 months to hit my year. Probably going to have to work for a CPA during law school to get them.

hah same here, except 4 more months. what cpa firm would allow u to work part time during the year though? this is part of the reason why i deferred. i didn't want to miss the mark by a few weeks and have to pay back all the bonuses and not get licensed.

SSDD wrote:

blackknight wrote:Im also on that CPA track. Passed all the parts just need another 3 months to hit my year. Probably going to have to work for a CPA during law school to get them.

That exam was a pain (especially FAR)! I passed and I'm a few months short as well; I was able to claim time from my internships and jobs I had while in college. I guess I shouldn't walk around calling myself a cpa... I'm guess I'm still just a half ass accountant

big4 is a b!tch. i hope i get laid off come next july

f0bolous wrote:

blackknight wrote:Im also on that CPA track. Passed all the parts just need another 3 months to hit my year. Probably going to have to work for a CPA during law school to get them.

hah same here, except 4 more months. what cpa firm would allow u to work part time during the year though? this is part of the reason why i deferred. i didn't want to miss the mark by a few weeks and have to pay back all the bonuses and not get licensed.

I'm tax, so hopefully I can sling a few returns during busy season if I have to. I was able to work busy season part time during my senior year of college and grad year for a local firm in college station.

I have to pay back my bonus my firm gave us all of the money at the end of the internship, as soon as we signed on. I plan on paying it back piece by piece (my tax refund was actually enough to recover most of it, yay internships).

I will get it taken care of ASAP. It's funny that during the boom, Big4 would have spent the amount of my bonus on a happy hour... now, during the bust, they may send hit-men after me for it Ok, probably not... but still

...

davidin wrote:
You can't chastise us for discussing chocolate and then proceed to drone on about accounting, of all things...

ok ok...

so u guys seriously think this is gross? http://www.vosgeschocolate.com/product/ ... candy_bars

--ImageRemoved--

it looks so yummy, not gonna lie

what cpa firm would allow u to work part time during the year though?

At many firms you can intern during the year and work. Also Im probably going to look into working at a small place so it isnt as stressful. The only thing that sucks is a month of part time doesnt count as an actual month. At least in CA if you work part time you have to work 170 hours for it to count for a month

davidin wrote:

You can't chastise us for discussing chocolate and then proceed to drone on about accounting, of all things...

Good point!

And yeah, the bacon bar is gross dude........

SSDD wrote:This is definitely something I'm wondering about as well.....

For people that are interested in BigLaw, is there still a worthwhile return on clerkships, beyond personal interest, translating into more opportunities / financial reward?

I have a friend that is a 3L at UT this year who is going to London for BigLaw after she graduates, she said that it wasn't worth the sacrifice to her. I know that she had good grades, somewhere in the top 25% of her class I believe.

The main reason I'm concerned is because I'm interested in clerking (assuming I end up being in a competitive position after the hell of 1L). However, at the same time, given my financial background (CPA - ewwwww), and the amount of debt I will have after graduation (minor scholarship, I guess I'm just vanilla), there is a high probability I will end up in BigLaw for at least a few years. This isn't to say that I'm power hungry, nor is it meant to imply that I have anything against public interest; it's just a realistic prediction.

Glad to see the board has lit back up and we finally got over the damn chocolate discussion

Chocolate > Accounting. 'Nuff said.

Basically, a prestigious clerkship (using Federal CoA as example) gives you more and better initial job opportunities for Biglaw than you get coming fresh out of law school, while giving you a huge prestige boost that will help your opportunities for your entire legal career (remember that most Biglaw associates don't make partner, only last 3-7 years, and then need to find work somewhere else). Yes, for two years or so you will make ~55k instead of ~140-160k, but this is moderated by the fact that a former federal CoA clerk gets hired onto Biglaw at the starting salary of a third year associate, and often receives a sizable hiring bonus of ~20-50k (up to 200k for former SCOTUS clerks.)

Clerking is definitely not for everyone. If you land your dream Biglaw job at OCI and don't have any interest in clerking, then there may not be any reason for you to do so....but if you are interested in clerking, there isn't a single person in the world who would think you foolish for delaying Biglaw for a year or two.

One other thing...with the legal market in the condition its in, I think that we need every competitive credential we can get.

Esc wrote:

SSDD wrote:This is definitely something I'm wondering about as well.....

For people that are interested in BigLaw, is there still a worthwhile return on clerkships, beyond personal interest, translating into more opportunities / financial reward?

I have a friend that is a 3L at UT this year who is going to London for BigLaw after she graduates, she said that it wasn't worth the sacrifice to her. I know that she had good grades, somewhere in the top 25% of her class I believe.

The main reason I'm concerned is because I'm interested in clerking (assuming I end up being in a competitive position after the hell of 1L). However, at the same time, given my financial background (CPA - ewwwww), and the amount of debt I will have after graduation (minor scholarship, I guess I'm just vanilla), there is a high probability I will end up in BigLaw for at least a few years. This isn't to say that I'm power hungry, nor is it meant to imply that I have anything against public interest; it's just a realistic prediction.

Glad to see the board has lit back up and we finally got over the damn chocolate discussion

Chocolate > Accounting. 'Nuff said.

Basically, a prestigious clerkship (using Federal CoA as example) gives you more and better initial job opportunities for Biglaw than you get coming fresh out of law school, while giving you a huge prestige boost that will help your opportunities for your entire legal career (remember that most Biglaw associates don't make partner, only last 3-7 years, and then need to find work somewhere else). Yes, for two years or so you will make ~55k instead of ~140-160k, but this is moderated by the fact that a former federal CoA clerk gets hired onto Biglaw at the starting salary of a third year associate, and often receives a sizable hiring bonus of ~20-50k (up to 200k for former SCOTUS clerks.)

Clerking is definitely not for everyone. If you land your dream Biglaw job at OCI and don't have any interest in clerking, then there may not be any reason for you to do so....but if you are interested in clerking, there isn't a single person in the world who would think you foolish for delaying Biglaw for a year or two.

One other thing...with the legal market in the condition its in, I think that we need every competitive credential we can get.

Damn, I'm just not interested in that. I need to figure out what it is I want to do with my JD. I'm leaning toward IP. Any reason to do a clerkship if I'm going that direction? Also, what do you think about my financial situation, Esc? I can keep working for PR part time and probably get through LS with $0 debt. Or I can take out loans for my COL and focus on earning a top spot in the class. I see advantages and disadvantages to both. I am personally leaning toward working. Here's my rationale; tell me if I'm mistaken: I've already been teaching MCAT and LSAT for years, so it's not like I have to learn the tests or the curriculum. It's strictly a matter of showing up a few nights a week and delivering lectures I've done dozens of times before. The job is so easy that I am very hesitant to quit.

f0bolous wrote:

davidin wrote:
You can't chastise us for discussing chocolate and then proceed to drone on about accounting, of all things...

ok ok...

so u guys seriously think this is gross? http://www.vosgeschocolate.com/product/ ... candy_bars

--ImageRemoved--

it looks so yummy, not gonna lie

"Mmmm. Move over, eggs. Bacon just got a new best friend — fudge."

Esc wrote:
Chocolate > Accounting. 'Nuff said.

Basically, a prestigious clerkship (using Federal CoA as example) gives you more and better initial job opportunities for Biglaw than you get coming fresh out of law school, while giving you a huge prestige boost that will help your opportunities for your entire legal career (remember that most Biglaw associates don't make partner, only last 3-7 years, and then need to find work somewhere else). Yes, for two years or so you will make ~55k instead of ~140-160k, but this is moderated by the fact that a former federal CoA clerk gets hired onto Biglaw at the starting salary of a third year associate, and often receives a sizable hiring bonus of ~20-50k (up to 200k for former SCOTUS clerks.)

Clerking is definitely not for everyone. If you land your dream Biglaw job at OCI and don't have any interest in clerking, then there may not be any reason for you to do so....but if you are interested in clerking, there isn't a single person in the world who would think you foolish for delaying Biglaw for a year or two.

One other thing...with the legal market in the condition its in, I think that we need every competitive credential we can get.

Hey, thanks for the response Esc; I actually minored in chocolate....

I am definitely interested in clerking. I know enough from my experience with Big4 Accounting (i know, i know) that even if I do end up starting out in BigLaw, I won't stay there anywhere near long enough to make partner.

Clerking seems like a worthwhile strategy for the long term; I agree with you on the need for some kind of differentiation. I can handle not having much money for a while; I'm pretty used to it.

It'll certainly be fun to explain to my parents that after 8 years of college and 3 degrees, I make 55k Oh the joy of financing yourself, you get to do whatever the hell you want!

I'm interested in clerking because of what a clerkship would do for my career. That's the only reason. I think my decision to pursue a clerkship will depend on how l perform in law school and how my career goals shape up. Right now, as an 0L, I want BigLaw--I'm thinking litigation--immediately after law school so that I can make money . But what will I want in 3 years?

Of course, one benefit of clerking is the distinction a clerkship confers: it's another way to separate oneself from the pack. If I were attending HYSCCN, however, I'd probably ride that "brand" name into the sunset! Clerk-what?

Yeah, I'm interested in clerkships both for the career bump and the personal satisfaction of clerking.

Over the long run I think clerking wouldn't be that much of a financial hit relative to a biglaw job, but in the short term it is far more enjoyable work than biglaw doc review.

Of course, this is a hypothetical dilemna for us all. The decision whether to clerk or go biglaw is a fantastic problem to have.

JazzOne wrote:Damn, I'm just not interested in that. I need to figure out what it is I want to do with my JD. I'm leaning toward IP. Any reason to do a clerkship if I'm going that direction? Also, what do you think about my financial situation, Esc? I can keep working for PR part time and probably get through LS with $0 debt. Or I can take out loans for my COL and focus on earning a top spot in the class. I see advantages and disadvantages to both. I am personally leaning toward working. Here's my rationale; tell me if I'm mistaken: I've already been teaching MCAT and LSAT for years, so it's not like I have to learn the tests or the curriculum. It's strictly a matter of showing up a few nights a week and delivering lectures I've done dozens of times before. The job is so easy that I am very hesitant to quit.

Clerkships will help you get any job, but if you aren't interested in clerking, you shouldn't go into something you know you would be bored out of your brains with. Regarding the part-time work deal, there are strict limits on the number of hours we can work in our first year, as working is discouraged. My opinion is that in law school, our future opportunities will be determined by the grades we receive and the activities we participate in, so why would you want to risk your future for a few part-time dollars? Not worth it. Instead of working part-time, I'd rather spend 10-20 hours a week doing practice tests or preparing for law review write-on.

SSDD wrote:
Hey, thanks for the response Esc; I actually minored in chocolate....

I am definitely interested in clerking. I know enough from my experience with Big4 Accounting (i know, i know) that even if I do end up starting out in BigLaw, I won't stay there anywhere near long enough to make partner.

Clerking seems like a worthwhile strategy for the long term; I agree with you on the need for some kind of differentiation. I can handle not having much money for a while; I'm pretty used to it.

It'll certainly be fun to explain to my parents that after 8 years of college and 3 degrees, I make 55k Oh the joy of financing yourself, you get to do whatever the hell you want!

lol. As long as you are satisfied with your career path, they can eff off, correct?

Esc wrote:Regarding the part-time work deal, there are strict limits on the number of hours we can work in our first year, as working is discouraged. My opinion is that in law school, our future opportunities will be determined by the grades we receive and the activities we participate in, so why would you want to risk your future for a few part-time dollars? Not worth it. Instead of working part-time, I'd rather spend 10-20 hours a week doing practice tests or preparing for law review write-on.

Thanks for the advice Esc. This is a hard decision for me because I think my living expenses will come to around $20K per year. So I'm looking at a debt load of around $60K if I don't work. That seems a bit ridiculous to me in light of the fact that I have a full scholarship. I make about $40/hour, so we're talking about more than a few part-time dollars. Working 10 hours a week would guarantee that I can graduate debt free. However, if I do not work, there is no guarantee that I'll finish near the top of our class or that I will make law review. So this is why the decision is so tough. I have a guarantee on one side and only a possibility on the other. Am I willing to give up a guarantee of no debt for a chance at law review? Also, there is always the possibility that I could be organized enough to work and accomplish my academic goals.

If anyone else has thoughts on this, please help me out!

JazzOne wrote:

Esc wrote:Regarding the part-time work deal, there are strict limits on the number of hours we can work in our first year, as working is discouraged. My opinion is that in law school, our future opportunities will be determined by the grades we receive and the activities we participate in, so why would you want to risk your future for a few part-time dollars? Not worth it. Instead of working part-time, I'd rather spend 10-20 hours a week doing practice tests or preparing for law review write-on.

Thanks for the advice Esc. This is a hard decision for me because I think my living expenses will come to around $20K per year. So I'm looking at a debt load of around $60K if I don't work. That seems a bit ridiculous to me in light of the fact that I have a full scholarship. I make about $40/hour, so we're talking about more than a few part-time dollars. Working 10 hours a week would guarantee that I can graduate debt free. However, if I do not work, there is no guarantee that I'll finish near the top of our class or that I will make law review. So this is why the decision is so tough. I have a guarantee on one side and only a possibility on the other. Am I willing to give up a guarantee of no debt for a chance at law review? Also, there is always the possibility that I could be organized enough to work and accomplish my academic goals.

If anyone else has thoughts on this, please help me out!

I know we're discouraged from working during our first year, but I'm not certain doing an easy job for 10 hrs each week will affect your academic performance negatively. (You might have to remain tight-lipped about your job, though.) 1L's are encouraged to participate in social activities (e.g. bar review, "society" events, affinity groups, etc.). These are optional activities, which may very well require a time commitment in excess of 10 hrs/week. You could skip some of these activities, thus creating time for your part-time job. Would it be a sacrifice? Yes, but it would be a worthy one. And your TLS buddies would still visit you for pizza night.

art vandelay wrote:Yeah, I'm interested in clerkships both for the career bump and the personal satisfaction of clerking.

Over the long run I think clerking wouldn't be that much of a financial hit relative to a biglaw job, but in the short term it is far more enjoyable work than biglaw doc review.

Of course, this is a hypothetical dilemna for us all. The decision whether to clerk or go biglaw is a fantastic problem to have.

+1

Yeah, I've kind of learned not to count the chickens before they've hatched or however the saying goes...

After I get my 1L grades, I'll have a better idea whether I'm likely to end up up clerking, at biglaw, or performing alongside leslie on the drag (though I'm probably not talented enough for that)

SSDD wrote:

art vandelay wrote:Yeah, I'm interested in clerkships both for the career bump and the personal satisfaction of clerking.

Over the long run I think clerking wouldn't be that much of a financial hit relative to a biglaw job, but in the short term it is far more enjoyable work than biglaw doc review.

Of course, this is a hypothetical dilemna for us all. The decision whether to clerk or go biglaw is a fantastic problem to have.

+1

Yeah, I've kind of learned not to count the chickens before they've hatched or however the saying goes...

After I get my 1L grades, I'll have a better idea whether I'm likely to end up up clerking, at biglaw, or performing alongside leslie on the drag (though I'm probably not talented enough for that)

or there's always shitlaw doc review in nyc for 30K