Yale Law School Class of 2012 Forum

[SparkyLives]

correct me if i'm wrong, but are you proposing that the poorest 52% go into more debt in order to relieve the debt of the richest 48%?

And you counter the fact that the poorest kid will be saddled with 45K more debt under this new system with...need based aid.

so ultimately, it's the kids in the middle who are taking the brunt of the added debt so that the kids on the top don't have to take on as much?

The only people who benefit from this system are the ones who can afford HYS Law anyway....seems like a bush tax cut.

[Objection]

correct me if i'm wrong, but are you proposing that the poorest 52% go into more debt in order to relieve the debt of the richest 48%?

And you counter the fact that the poorest kid will be saddled with 45K more debt under this new system with...need based aid.

so ultimately, it's the kids in the middle who are taking the brunt of the added debt so that the kids on the top don't have to take on as much?

The only people who benefit from this system are the ones who can afford HYS Law anyway....seems like a bush tax cut.

$460,000 more to save $32,000,000, with the most extreme cases (the ones who would actually be substantially hurt in the new system) still receiving grants to keep their levels similar to what they would have been.

Yes, that is what is being proposed.

The only people who benefit from this system are the ones who can afford HYS Law anyway....seems like a bush tax cut.

Everyone can afford HYS Law. My proposed system (a slight tweak to westbayguy's) makes it so less debt has to be accrued in order to do so.

[dueprocess14]

-Under the current system, the extremely rich person (with no parental support) will start $200k in debt - a bit more than 3 years worth of debt.

-Under the proposed system, the extremely rich (with no parental support) will graduate with $149k in debt - a bit more than 2.5 years worth of debt.

Well, to be fair, the difference was $44k (105-149), and I said a little more than 2.5. It'd actually probably be closer to 2.75 if you're paying off $53k/year in loans (160k/3)...doing the math now...it'd be 2.81 years under the new system vs 3.77 under the old system . Almost a full year off of debt.

However, I think the benefit lies more in how much you'd be reducing the debt overall - over $30 million.

But of course, it's hard to really calculate any of this without specific and detailed information.

Ok, I wasn't really carefully following the math, but I don't understand how you'd reduce the debt by $30 million overall. At the end of the day, what you're proposing is a reshuffling of the debt. I don't see how the total overall debt is going to be reduced by so much? If anything, it seems like, if we assume some number of rich parents will pay off the total cost of their child's legal education, there will be MORE debt under your system, since proportionately less will be paid off by the rich parents (since those kids will have less debt under your system).

It just seems like fuzzy math somehow to get $30 million less in overall debt if Harvard would hypothetically have the exact same expenditures as before.

[Objection]

-Under the current system, the extremely rich person (with no parental support) will start $200k in debt - a bit more than 3 years worth of debt.

-Under the proposed system, the extremely rich (with no parental support) will graduate with $149k in debt - a bit more than 2.5 years worth of debt.

Well, to be fair, the difference was $44k (105-149), and I said a little more than 2.5. It'd actually probably be closer to 2.75 if you're paying off $53k/year in loans (160k/3)...doing the math now...it'd be 2.81 years under the new system vs 3.77 under the old system . Almost a full year off of debt.

However, I think the benefit lies more in how much you'd be reducing the debt overall - over $30 million.

But of course, it's hard to really calculate any of this without specific and detailed information.

Ok, I wasn't really carefully following the math, but I don't understand how you'd reduce the debt by $30 million overall. At the end of the day, what you're proposing is a reshuffling of the debt. I don't see how the total overall debt is going to be reduced by so much? If anything, it seems like, if we assume some number of rich parents will pay off the total cost of their child's legal education, there will be MORE debt under your system, since proportionately less will be paid off by the rich parents (since those kids will have less debt under your system).

It just seems like fuzzy math somehow to get $30 million less in overall debt if Harvard would hypothetically have the exact same expenditures as before.

That's a very good possibility. Math is not my forte. Let me try to redo it...

Here is the math I did, with attempted elaboration/clarification.

The average grant recipient receives a grant of $17,500. This means the rest of the $67,200 is paid "out of pocket" - through loans, working, parental contributions, etc.

$67,200 - $19,500 = $47,700.

(I increased the average grant amount by $2000 to reflect the $2000 increased student budget)

$47,700 * 3 = $143,100

In the current system, the average grant recipient is paying $143,100 out of pocket.

In the new system, the average grant recipient would be paying $149,100 out of pocket.

The average grant recipient would be paying $6,000 more out of pocket, or ~$4,680,000 more combined debt in the entire group 780 grant recipients (780 * $6000).

My earlier math here was incorrect - the cumulative debt increase would be $4,680,000 (not $468,000 as I previously said...mistyped into the calc).

Now, for the other 48%, they're paying the entire amount out of pocket - whether through loans, working, or through parental support.

Under the current system - student budget of $67,200 ($43.2k tuition, $24k other expenses) - that student and his family will be paying $203,700 out of pocket.

Under the proposed system - student budget of approximately $49,700 ($25.7k tuition, $24k other expenses) - that student will be paying $149,100 out of pocket.

Again, my numbers were off before, but this time it works out better for the proposed system. The 48% of loan only applicants would be saving $54,600 in the new system vs the old system.

Harvard's student body is 1500 people. 48% of 1500 is 720.

720 * $54,600 = $39,312,000 saved.

$39,312,000 (saved by the 48%) - $4,680,000 = $34,632,000.

So, under the new system, the HLS student body as a whole would save $34,632,000.

[dueprocess14]

I figured it out! Way back up at the top, you double-subtracted Harvard's grant expenditures:

The average grant received by the 52% HLS students who receive grants (approximately 780 students) is $17,500/year

This means HLS is paying $13.6 million in grants per year.

From the rest of the class, HLS brings in $31.6 million (720 students * $43.9k tuition). From the 780 who receive grants, HLS makes $20.6 million (780 * $26.4k). This means that HLS is making $52.2 million/year in tuition while paying $13.6 million in grants for a net profit of $38.6 million.

Ok, EITHER Harvard gets less in tuition money ($20.6 mil) OR Harvard gets the full amount from them as well AND we subtract the grant money from the net. You both took in less tuition money AND subtracted the grant expenditures. So:

This means HLS is ACTUALLY making $52.2 million/year either way (either 1500*$43.9k - $13.8 mil OR 720*$43.9k + 780*$26.4k). This means, if you want to raise that amount over everyone's tuition equally, the annual tuition cost would be $52.2 million/1500 = $34.8k per year. That, coupled with cost of living ($24k), puts total debt over three years at $58.8k*3 or
$176.4k.

So, to revise, the very poorest would go from having to take out approx $105k in debt to $176.4k in debt. The average grant recipient would have go from having to take out $143k in debt to $176.4k in debt. The very richest would go from $200k in debt to $176.4k in debt. This doesn't seem like a very good solution to me, especially since, like I said, the primary beneficiary is rich but generous parents!

[Objection]

Oooh, you're right, zab. Nice catch!

In that case, the proposed system doesn't look so hot

[dueprocess14]

Oooh, you're right, zab. Nice catch!

In that case, the proposed system doesn't look so hot

Westbayguy might still disagree, but yeah, the egalitarian in me is pretty happy they use the system they do!

[dueprocess14]

On a slightly related subjected, Asha posted to the 203 blog with a really helpful post talking about the advantages to Yale's COAP program vs. other schools. Is anyone besides me having a really hard time thinking about going anywhere else knowing you have to turn this security blanket down? It's sad, but the COAP is one of the major reasons I am finding it hard to consider turning down Yale.

http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissions/default.aspx

[KP429]

Um, anyway.. to get this thread back on track and away from some of the ridiculous "proposals," has anyone received additional mailings/e-mailings explaining in greater detail the "next steps" that we need to take?

Also, I was awarded a "scholarship," which I am assuming is the same thing as a grant -- but of course, I'm not sure. Do I need to fill out the online survey thing? I wish this was clearer.

Finally, does anyone know the maximum amount of need-based money Yale gives out to its "poorest" students? Just curious.

[Objection]

Um, anyway.. to get this thread back on track and away from some of the ridiculous "proposals,"

Yes, Queen KP

[KP429]

Um, anyway.. to get this thread back on track and away from some of the ridiculous "proposals,"

Yes, Queen KP

I much preferred your original post. You should have left it up for posterity's sake.

(And for the adcomms)

[Objection]

Um, anyway.. to get this thread back on track and away from some of the ridiculous "proposals,"

Yes, Queen KP

I much preferred your original post. You should have left it up for posterity's sake.

(And for the adcomms)

Well, I'm glad you saw it because it conveys much better just how unnecessarily dickish your post was.

[KP429]

Finally, bare in mind NO ONE is getting a free ride from Yale. They expect, at minimum, that you will assume responsibility for at least (approx) $35k of the cost of your legal education per year.

Hey Zab.. just wondering where you got the 35k number from. Is there actually a cap for need-based aid? Also, 20.5k of that 35k is from Stafford loans, I imagine?

[dueprocess14]

Um, anyway.. to get this thread back on track and away from some of the ridiculous "proposals," has anyone received additional mailings/e-mailings explaining in greater detail the "next steps" that we need to take?

Also, I was awarded a "scholarship," which I am assuming is the same thing as a grant -- but of course, I'm not sure. Do I need to fill out the online survey thing? I wish this was clearer.

Finally, does anyone know the maximum amount of need-based money Yale gives out to its "poorest" students? Just curious.

So, feuds aside, scholarship is the same as grant, Yale just uses a different word than some schools. Yeah, I was totally confused by that survey too - I'm assuming we fill it out for donors to read about how wonderful and amazing we are

From what I recall, the minimum Yale expects anyone to contribute to their legal education is around $35k a year, or a total of $105k for three years. By deduction, that probably means the most they give is about $30k a year. I think Stanford is a little more generous, based on what I've heard.

[KP429]

Yeah, that's what I figured you meant. Still wondering, though, where did you read/learn that the minimum they expect is 35k? I'm just asking because I don't recall seeing that number anywhere although it is um.. highly relevant to my interests lol.

[dueprocess14]

I asked her when I spoke with her.

[SparkyLives]

Also, I was awarded a "scholarship," which I am assuming is the same thing as a grant -- but of course, I'm not sure. Do I need to fill out the online survey thing? I wish this was clearer.

I filled out the online survey, there's a short bio at the end. I just put in my UG accomplishments and said I would start YLS in the fall--

it's my understanding we're going to receive more information about the loans, etc. via email in the coming weeks.

[franfair]

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[constellationx]

Hi! I'm joining this group. Got the call yesterday evening. Are most of you set on Yale by now?

[franfair]

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[Baboonis]

Does anyone know if, if we have to take out a little extra in loans to cover the $2,500 from summer work or another part that we are expected to pay according to the letter, will that be covered by the COAP later? I know they said that loans for expected parental contribution would be covered by COAP, but I wasn't sure about loans to cover our own expected contribution (from savings or summer work or whatever). Thanks!

Loans taken out to cover parental contribution are covered.

Loans taken out to replace "your own resources" (Barnes's phrase) will not be covered by COAP.

[franfair]

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[littleboyblue]

going back to the financial aid debate (sorry) - one quick thought.

i think h already has a fin aid incentive for "rich" people who are choosing to do public interest jobs post law school and are looking for ways to not dig into all their (or their parents) savings. since they won't have loans post graduation and therefore the coap program is basically meaningless to them, harvard gives them (and everyone else) a year of tuition for free when the commit to public interest post grad. that is a substantial cost savings for the "rich" that is not available at other schools.

[shuchong]

i think h already has a fin aid incentive for "rich" people who are choosing to do public interest jobs post law school and are looking for ways to not dig into all their (or their parents) savings.

Good point. I don't know why, but I wasn't thinking of Harvard's tuition break in those terms, even though I'm one of those people who isn't getting any grant money from Yale. Maybe it's because my after-law-school goals are way too vague for me to be sure that I'd do public interest for five years, so a tuition-free year isn't really even on my radar.

Hi! I'm joining this group. Got the call yesterday evening. Are most of you set on Yale by now?

Welcome and congrats! Not set yet, but hope to be soon! (I'm going to next Monday's Monday program, since I can't make the ASW. I'd be happy to type up a report next Tuesday for anyone who's interested.)

[ccw1234]

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