Harvard Class of 2012 Forum

[dueprocess14]

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Well, that's going a bit far...

No, I'm not being facetious or anything
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(I'm really not. The whole "I'M GOING TO HAVE TO WORK SO HARD TO KEEP UP WITH ALL THESE OTHER BRILLIANT, BEAUTIFUL MINDS" schtick is really grating.)

I'm done after this, but I will ask - point to one place where I've said I think all kids at X school are so uniformly more accomplished than others and that I will struggle to keep up? I haven't. I *have* said I've enjoyed the demeanor, attitude and interests of people at some schools more than others, but that's not the same thing. I think if you got to any school you've gotten into there's a very strong likelihood you'll do just fine there - law school admissions teams are in the business of making sure they don't admit people who aren't going to cut it. That is the out-dated HLS model of the 19th century.

[mallard]

For the record, equating the above to pleasant confusion is pretty disingenuous. And yeah, there's a big difference between running around reveling in random people being in awe of you because of where you're going to school and appreciating your classmates.

If you want to talk about how cool your future fellow students are, go right ahead - HLS kids are almost uniformly accomplished, intelligent, hard-working and destined for good things ahead. There are countless things to be proud of in your classmates. However, getting an ego boost from the significance that the name on your T-shirt conveys is *not* the same thing, let alone speculating on the ability to score based on it. I know we all worked really hard to get into the schools we're getting into and it's *definitely* something to be proud of, but I just think it's really easy for this to get to one's head.

I think you may have read the above conversation in the wrong light. As I interpreted it, what people said was basically

mallard: I had this weird experience I couldn't quite figure out while wearing my sweatshirt.
Objection: Yeah, I had a similarly strange experience, but after thinking about it it made me feel good.
Treple: My friends told me I was a douche for wearing my sweatshirt.
joschmo: Wearing my sweatshirt did not get me laid.

Not really sure what's objectionable there.

[FrenchiePatootie]

I really would like to hope this entire conversation is a parody, but somehow, sadly, I think it's not.

Don't hate on Zab. He's right.

I don't find anything particularly offensive to anything they said.
This oversensitive crap kinda gets on my nerves. So what if they wear their shirts and people slap them on the back?
It's just a shirt. They paid at least $12.00 for it. And it's their future school, which just happens to be a good one. Let them be. If you don't want to wear your own or be low-key about it, then that's your deal too. No need to be condescending or to try to make them feel guilty about it.

Heck, I hate telling people myself because I don't like the attention but hey, to each his own. Y'all don't have to be friends.

[kammysay504]

Hey everyone! I just got accepted this past friday, and unfortunately it's way too expensive for me to make a last minute trip to visit before the deposit deadline. I was just wondering if y'all could share some insights from visits...I know that's a really broad request, but I guess as far as the career services, the public interest opportunities, housing, area around the campus/cambridge itself, the people you met, etc. Really, if anything stood out in anyone's mind it would be great. I'm pretty sure I am going to deposit but I don't like not having gotten to see it beforehand. Thanks!!

[mallard]

Hey everyone! I just got accepted this past friday, and unfortunately it's way too expensive for me to make a last minute trip to visit before the deposit deadline. I was just wondering if y'all could share some insights from visits...I know that's a really broad request, but I guess as far as the career services, the public interest opportunities, housing, area around the campus/cambridge itself, the people you met, etc. Really, if anything stood out in anyone's mind it would be great. I'm pretty sure I am going to deposit but I don't like not having gotten to see it beforehand. Thanks!!

The people I met were great. Many - I'd say most - seemed to have plans to enter public interest. The housing was a bit small, not excellent, a little expensive. The area is very cool. Career services is incredible; they keep track of what everybody who's graduated from the place has gone on to do, which is, needless to say, a lot of people and a lot of stuff. The public interest opportunities are vast and really solid. I particularly like some of the hands-on first-year clinics, like the Defenders, the Tenant Advocacy Project, the Prison something something, etc.

[bgc]

joschmo: Wearing my sweatshirt did not get me laid.

Not really sure what's objectionable there.

I suspect joschmo found it objectionable.

[mallard]

joschmo: Wearing my sweatshirt did not get me laid.

Not really sure what's objectionable there.

I suspect joschmo found it objectionable.

lololol

[legends159]

you can't just wear the sweatshirt and expect to get laid. You gotta carry around your con law text book, drop it next to the girl to get her attention and tell her about your earning potential. That should do the trick.

or get a blonde attractive friend to slap you in the face in front of said girl, reprimanding you for not calling her back after giving her a wonderful night of pleasure a la legally blonde style.

[Cleareyes]

Hey everyone! I just got accepted this past friday, and unfortunately it's way too expensive for me to make a last minute trip to visit before the deposit deadline. I was just wondering if y'all could share some insights from visits...I know that's a really broad request, but I guess as far as the career services, the public interest opportunities, housing, area around the campus/cambridge itself, the people you met, etc. Really, if anything stood out in anyone's mind it would be great. I'm pretty sure I am going to deposit but I don't like not having gotten to see it beforehand. Thanks!!

You can PM me (or I suspect any of us) with specific questions, but for the most part the people were friendly (with a fair number of nerds), the campus is nice, the classrooms good, the career services seems REALLY on top of things, and the public interest opportunities were both numerous and well integrated into the school.

Here's my ultimate take on Harvard:

It will offer you any opportunity you like, but you have to be active, seek it out, and grab it. I think it's a great school for whatever you want to do and if you are leaning that way then you should definitely go.

In terms of the housing, the dorms are dorms and Harvard affiliated housing is expensive for what you get. There seems to be stuff off campus and in Sommerville that is more reasonably priced. Cambridge is Cambridge. I don't like it very much but the vast majority of people seem to.

[OperaAttorney]

I really would like to hope this entire conversation is a parody, but somehow, sadly, I think it's not.

Don't hate on Zab. He's right.

I don't find anything particularly offensive to anything they said.
This oversensitive crap kinda gets on my nerves. So what if they wear their shirts and people slap them on the back?
It's just a shirt. They paid at least $12.00 for it. And it's their future school, which just happens to be a good one. Let them be. If you don't want to wear your own or be low-key about it, then that's your deal too. No need to be condescending or to try to make them feel guilty about it.

Heck, I hate telling people myself because I don't like the attention but hey, to each his own. Y'all don't have to be friends.

I didn't find the conversation offensive. But I did find it amusingly pathetic: Some of the participants offered the impression that, perhaps, they lacked a healthy measure of self-esteem before their app cycles began.

And I'm not hating. My self-esteem is intact. I'm happy for those who are in at HYS even though I'm not. Zab expressed some of what I felt, so I had to cosign. That's all.

[Objection]

Wait what? I've been away from this thread. I'm confused which part of the conversation was offensive and/or pathetic.

Someone care to enlighten me?

[mallard]

Wait what? I've been away from this thread. I'm confused which part of the conversation was offensive and/or pathetic.

Someone care to enlighten me?

We like our sweatshirts too much. We should like each other instead.

I like you, Objection.

[Objection]

Wait what? I've been away from this thread. I'm confused which part of the conversation was offensive and/or pathetic.

Someone care to enlighten me?

We like our sweatshirts too much. We should like each other instead.

I like you, Objection.

I like you a lot. Especially when you wear your sweatshirt. I only liked you a little before, but now that you got into Harvard, I like you a lot.

Sometimes, if me and my girl are getting it on, and I'm having erection troubles, I'll look at my HLS binder...which I have superglued to my ceiling above my bed.

[Objection]

Hey everyone! I just got accepted this past friday, and unfortunately it's way too expensive for me to make a last minute trip to visit before the deposit deadline. I was just wondering if y'all could share some insights from visits...I know that's a really broad request, but I guess as far as the career services, the public interest opportunities, housing, area around the campus/cambridge itself, the people you met, etc. Really, if anything stood out in anyone's mind it would be great. I'm pretty sure I am going to deposit but I don't like not having gotten to see it beforehand. Thanks!!

I'll repost my review from the ASW thread:

OK, here goes!

Let me start by saying that this ASW has taught me the dangers of posting on a forum like this without trying overly hard to remain anonymous. I am the type of guy who much prefers to be behind the scenes, so this idea that my reputation preceded me was a bit disconcerting and made me quite nervous.

With each person I met that knew I was Objection (there were quite a few, including ones I didn’t plan to meet), I thought to myself, “Damn, this person has an opinion of me already.” This naturally led to: Is my reputation with them bad? If so, am I confirming that reputation? Are they even giving me an honest chance to disprove that reputation? When I leave, are they saying, “Yep, that Objection guy is the total weirdo/asshole/jackass/douchebag/<insert bad adjective here> I expected.” I didn’t think I was, but the fact that so many people had preconceived opinions of me made me a little bit paranoid, particularly because reputation is everything in this field, and law school can be quite gossipy.

There were quite a few times where someone outted me randomly. For example, I was walking with a group of people and a girl (who turned out to be Eri) calls out from the back, “Are you Objection?!”

Moments like that were kind of cool, but at the same time made me feel a bit exposed.

I hope I wasn't too bad. Haha

General

I came into HLS with relatively low expectations. The campus looked bleak and depressing in pictures. Coming from a state school, I expected ivy leaguers to be weird, awkward, arrogant, and lame. As a Steelers fan (and, to a much lesser extent, a Yankees fan), I had a built in dislike of Boston. I was a bit worried about the size of the school. To be honest, the only argument I could make for HLS as I went into it was “Well, it’s Harvard.”

Thankfully, every concern of mine seems to have been addressed, and the idea of graduating with over $200,000 in debt seems much more palatable now.

The people

Universally intelligent and accomplished. I feel bad for zab, because I only ran into a couple of bad eggs. I didn’t let them ruin my time, because there were so many other amazing and friendly people that there was no reason to interact with the jackasses. I think the social situation was what you made of it. If you let the rare bad egg bring you down and caused you to generalize everyone else, you really missed out. I also feel that you missed a lot of the experience because you had a circle of friends outside of HLS that probably kept you in a comfort zone. If I’ve learned anything from going 21 hours away for undergrad and then heading up to the ASW alone it’s that the best way to meet people is to be forced to meet people. When you travel with friends, you don’t need to move out of your comfort zone, and thus are more likely to write everyone else off on the basis of a few bad eggs. I don’t mean to rag on you, zab, but the few people I met who didn’t seem to like it were people who had come with friends and just hung out with them most of the time.

Anyway, to put my feelings on the people in context: I’m from Jersey. I’m a Yankee. I judge people in the first 2 seconds of a conversation. I can’t help it. I will dislike someone because they have too much grease in their hair, or their sunglasses are obnoxiously large. Yet, when thinking back on the weekend, there is not a single person that I spent time getting to know that I disliked.

Of course, there were some people who I probably would have disliked if I had talked to them. The two gunners in the “random drawing” group were annoying, but seriously, that’s only 2 people out of how many?

Oh, and I met a couple of Steelers fans. Made me happy.

The Faculty

Wow. Elizabeth Warren was phenomenal. The guy who gave the Supreme Court talk was phenomenal. Carol Steiker (the woman I ate lunch with…criminal law) was phenomenal. There isn’t much to be said here, except I’d like to respond to CCWs complaint about Dean Jackson…

From my understanding, he is coming over from the business school. He has a lot on his plate. The questions weren’t planned, so it seems completely understandable to me that he might not be able to rattle off facts and figures as well as a pure law school faculty member or, say, Dean Kagan would have. He’s also an interim. He wont be the actual dean. HLS is going through a minor transition period right now, so I gave Dean Jackson a bit of a pass on any evasiveness.

The Campus/Area

I actually really liked it. Obviously, it’s not up to the standard of Yale or Michigan or Stanford, but it was a lot better than I had expected. The library is phenomenal. I was awestruck.

I also absolutely loved how right in the middle of everything HLS was, while still retaining a quiet campus feel within the campus. It was a perfect balance. I fell in love with the city and the area.

Size

I find this discussion of “getting lost” or “not getting the full experience” to be a bit odd. Perhaps it is because my high school was approximately the size of HLS, or perhaps it’s that my undergrad has 40,000 people, but I don’t see how the size of HLS is a minus. The fact of the matter is, if there is something you want to experience, you can experience it. Even at my undergrad with 40,000 people, if you want to do an activity or get involved with a group, you can! 1,500 people is really not that big. HLS student:faculty ratio is 10:1. Yale’s is 7:1 (off the top of my head; correct if I’m wrong). Is 3 extra people per faculty member really something to base such a major decision on? In my opinion, it isn’t.

Faculty members may seem like they would be less accessible, but when you factor in the idea of section leaders, reading groups, and the fact that 200 of the 280 upper level classes have less than 25 people, are they really less accessible? If you want to interact with a faculty member, you will be able to. Reading groups, office hours, small classes, etc.

I also think there is something to be said for having 550 unique personalities vs 180, but that’s a personal choice, I guess.

Harvard certainly does have a lot of opportunities, but since when is having options a bad thing? It was reiterated several times that the people who really want to do something will be able to do it. There is so much at the school and it’s true – you won’t be able to see it all. But you will be able to do what you want to do if you know what you want to do, or do enough to find out what you want to do if you don’t.

vs Yale

In the interest of full disclosure, I have not yet heard from Yale.

With that out of the way, I take issue with several points made about the comparison:

1. KP brought up the Harvard name not having much impact in itself. 1Ls still struggling for jobs. Etc. If Harvard students are struggling to get jobs, Yale students are struggling to get jobs. Name doesn’t matter. The fates of HY grads are mirror images of each other. I don’t know if KP meant to imply that the Harvard name has taken a hit while Yale’s remains unblemished, but if so, I find that to be absolutely without merit. Both are affected equally by the job market. Furthermore, KP said “why compete with more students when I don’t have to?” But if you want to clerk or do academia, won’t you be competing with more students at YLS than you would at HLS? Furthermore, since neither school ranks, how exactly are you competing? You will have the same options at the top of your class at Yale as you would at the top of your class at HLS; you will have the same options at the bottom of your class at Yale as you would at the bottom of your class at HLS.


2. This was brought up by the Dean and I think it was a very, very valid point. Yale is a fantastic school, and better than Harvard in some areas to be sure. If you definitely want academia or clerkships, go Yale (although I believe a lot of the success Yale has with placing grads in academia and clerkships has to do with self-selection and a bit of a cycle because of reputation…I don’t believe Yale necessarily does anything to prepare their students better in this regard…but that’s for another post). If you absolutely know what you want, know you will not be swayed, and know Yale specializes in it, go Yale. For everyone else, I think Harvard is the way to go.

If this were the Olympics, Yale has a few 10s and a bunch of 7s and 8s. Harvard has 9s across the board. Take the international law program, for example. Harvard absolutely demolishes Yale in this respect. It’s disgustingly lopsided. So what happens if you go to Yale undecided and realize that your real desire is to do international law? You would be much better served at Harvard. What if you decide on sports law? You would be much better served at Harvard. But even if you get to Harvard and decide you want to do academia or get a clerkship, you won’t be at that much of a disadvantage relative to Yale.

Yale is better at its specialties than Harvard is in those areas, but not to the same extent that Harvard is better in the other areas. Going back to international law…the difference between H and Y in international law is exponentially greater than the difference between H and Y when it comes to academia.

So if you are unswayably sure about what you want to do and Yale excels in that area, go Yale. Otherwise, go Harvard.

The way I see it, Harvard will never be the wrong answer. It is excellent in every single area. Yale, on the other hand, is unmatched in a few areas but simply good in the others.

I just feel that at Harvard you have more options. If you want to do something at Harvard, you can. The same can’t always be said at Yale, and that to me is the biggest advantage Harvard has.

All that said, you really can’t go wrong with either choice. I do not mean to belittle Yale, but I feel as if people talk about Yale as if it’s clearly better than Harvard, when, all things considered, this is not the case.

Miscellaneous

I got bored of separating everything into different categories, so I just plan to ramble now. I just really loved it. The people I met were amazing. The activities were fun. The faculty members were intimidatingly accomplished. The surrounding area was fantastic. The opportunities were limitless. I don’t know. Am I forgetting anything?

Now, for my TLS-member review:

treple – the guy is awesome. Clicked the most with him and I feel like I’ve known him for much longer. My future roommate if I attend HLS (I’m trying to go into Michigan with an open mind, although the amazingness of the weekend made that task more difficult). He needs to stop trying to steal the girls I flirt with though. I even played wingman for him once but no, that wasn’t good enough!

Iagolives – Another great guy. Extremely intelligent and down to earth. I wish I had gotten to hang out with him more, but we kept ending up just missing each other.

sluggo (and his gf) – truly two of the nicest people I’ve ever met. Humble, intelligent, approachable, funny. I hope to see much more of them in the future.

Ccw – One of my biggest regrets about the ASW is that I didn’t get to talk with her more. From my brief interaction with her at breakfast, she was funny, charming, and obviously intelligent and accomplished. Hopefully, we’ll cross paths again. I plan to spend the next month and a half trying to convince her to come, just to make up for the lost opportunity.

krswmact – She attends a rival SEC school, so she had a lot to overcome in my mind! Yet she did. The little social butterfly, haha. Because of her, my experience was much smoother. She set up a group dinner prior to the start of ASW, which gave me a solid foundation of familiarity from the start. In fact, all of the (ridiculous number of) people from her school were fantastic.

FrenchiePatootie – Another one I wish I had been able to interact with more. Much like ccw, she came across extraordinarily intelligent and friendly.

Eri – Absolutely sweet, funny, and down to Earth. She was one of the people with whom I had quite a bit of interaction, and it was great.

I’m probably forgetting someone, but if I am, there wasn’t any TLSer I met that I didn’t like, so don’t worry.

[mallard]

I met some incredible people at the April ASW, but I really hope I get the chance to meet the TLS group you described, Objection.

[joschmo]

Wow - I did expect a mild psuedo-feminist response, but this was a little over the top. I dont even own an HLS Sweatshirt.

However, this was funny:

joschmo: Wearing my sweatshirt did not get me laid.

Not really sure what's objectionable there.

I suspect joschmo found it objectionable.

[sluggo]

Received my deposit confirmation... really excited to meet up with you guys again come late August!

[sluggo]

Cleareyes,

Just curious... what specifically do you not like about Cambridge (other than it being cold)?

[Cleareyes]

Cleareyes,

Just curious... what specifically do you not like about Cambridge (other than it being cold)?

The cold I don't mind. Cambridge is too much of a college town for me. Too dominated by its institutions. I prefer areas where the school blends in a little bit more. I mean it's just a personal taste thing. I understand why others like it.

[Objection]

Cleareyes,

Just curious... what specifically do you not like about Cambridge (other than it being cold)?

The cold I don't mind. Cambridge is too much of a college town for me. Too dominated by its institutions. I prefer areas where the school blends in a little bit more. I mean it's just a personal taste thing. I understand why others like it.

If you think Cambridge is a college town, I'm not so sure you've ever actually been in a college town.

Not criticizing, just sayin'.

[mallard]

I like that the campus bleeds into the surrounding area, but I have low standards; my UG was really in the middle of nowhere.

[iagolives]

Sometimes, if me and my girl are getting it on, and I'm having erection troubles, I'll look at my HLS binder...which I have superglued to my ceiling above my bed.

Hahahahahahaha

See, its statements like that that make me excited to be going to school with you next year.

...Until I find out that it is actually superglued to your ceiling. Then I'll be severely wierded out. Just FYI.

[Cleareyes]

Cleareyes,

Just curious... what specifically do you not like about Cambridge (other than it being cold)?

The cold I don't mind. Cambridge is too much of a college town for me. Too dominated by its institutions. I prefer areas where the school blends in a little bit more. I mean it's just a personal taste thing. I understand why others like it.

If you think Cambridge is a college town, I'm not so sure you've ever actually been in a college town.

Not criticizing, just sayin'.

I have been to college towns, and Cambridge certainly has more independence than, say, Charlottesville VA, but that's irrelevant because we're talking about my tastes. Cambridge was named in reaction to Harvard's existence and Harvard is the heart of the city, with MIT counterbalancing a little bit. To say that Cambridge is NOT a college town is disingenuous. The main reason it has the independence it does is really that it is part of the Boston area and so there's some general Boston city stuff that influences it.

[Currie84]

For the record, Cambridge is not a college town.

Harvard Square =/= Cambridge.

If you stay within the 1 mile radius of HLS, yes, you might think that. The section of Cambridge that Harvard is in, Harvard Square, is dominated by Harvard buildings and Harvard students (surprise!) but Cambridge is a lot bigger than just Harvard Square. And there are other universities in Cambridge, btw.

[littleboyblue]

For the record, Cambridge is not a college town.

Harvard Square =/= Cambridge.

If you stay within the 1 mile radius of HLS, yes, you might think that. The section of Cambridge that Harvard is in, Harvard Square, is dominated by Harvard buildings and Harvard students (surprise!) but Cambridge is a lot bigger than just Harvard Square. And there are other universities in Cambridge, btw.

Even areas outside of Harvard Square feel very much like a college town including areas near MIT, Central Square, etc.