Harvard Class of 2012 Forum

[iagolives]

I'm not going ahnielove, but I just wanted to say congrats and welcome! This thread (and HLS in general) seems to have a lot of cool people so you are in good company!

[FrenchiePatootie]

is anyone planning on getting involved in the negotiation/mediation clinic program?

[sluggo]

what does everyone think of the summer research assistant opportunities (emailed to us yesterday I believe)?

[iagolives]

They seem pretty interesting. I should apply but I already have a job and I'm kind of enjoying the thought of one more "free" summer to just work and enjoy life.

[sluggo]

yeah... too bad i dont have econ background that first one is 50/hr

[Objection]

Submitting my deposit this week!

[sluggo]

Obj, congrats on making a fairly tough (but correct imo) decision.

Am I correct in remembering April 30 as the date we get our hosuing windows for affiliated housing?

[excitedutterance]

Just got into Stanford, but still set on Harvard. That's the right decision, right?

Haha. Oversimplification.

[sluggo]

Do you want to go to Harvard or Stanford?

Buy a warm coat and join the party.

[Objection]

I am of the firm belief that the only reason to choose SLS over HLS is the weather.

[excitedutterance]

I am of the firm belief that the only reason to choose SLS over HLS is the weather.

And I'm from California, which means SLS is the easy route in a geographical/climactic/cultural sense. That's one of the reasons I'm leaning toward HLS. Who doesn't like heaping stressors atop 1L year?

[reasontobelieve]

looks like it's about time for me to join this group. i think i'm officially telling nyu 'no thanks' to their money offer tomorrow, which was my only other serious option (except for yls, where it looks like i will be waitlisted). i'm excited about harvard. think it'll be great. anyone here a public interest person? what specific interests?

[totalidiot]

I am of the firm belief that the only reason to choose SLS over HLS is the weather.

Are you confronting the decision? If you really think that's the only reason to attend SLS, I would bet that you haven't had the impetus to actually do any reading or (more importantly) serious thinking about the two. Harvard is a fantastic school, but there are a ton of reasons to attend Stanford (indeed, I don't think of Harvard as offering anything comparable to Yale or Stanford--it's really more comparable to Columbia or NYU, just with more name recognition and resources). There's a reason that so many opt for SLS over HLS, and while most consider SLS to be the odd man out in the HYS triad, I really think that as far as law schools are concerned, HLS is really the odd man out.

to name a few: smaller class size/ more accessible, better quality (although not quantity) clinicals / quality of life / teachers focused on teaching / more collegial atmosphere / joint degree programs .....I could go on, but there are just a number of considerations that would lead one to take Stanford over Harvard.

imo, while Harvard is a fantastic school, it just really doesn't offer much vis-a-vis Yale or Stanford besides name recognition. A lot of this is because the HLS is so different from the other two--it's hard to compare H and S, as Stanford is more a Yale-type school, while Harvard is more a Columbia-type school. They simply offer fundamentally different opportunities/incentives to an incoming student. Don't underestimate the differences between the small atmosphere of Stanford v. the lawyer-factory that is Harvard . But seriously, they all offer fantastic opportunities, but Yale and Stanford are just fundamentally different from the rest of the T14.

Purely anecdotal, but all of the current SLS students I've spoken with were cross-admits, and they're all very glad that they went to SLS over HLS when they look at their friends who went to HLS. SLS really seems like a fantastic, exciting place to be.

I'm posting this because that statement seemed to be ludicrous, not to hijack this thread, so I'll try not to argue too much--just wanted to throw in my .02 now that folks on this thread are confronting the decision. I was lucky enough to be admitted to both, and I'll say for my part that after a substantial amount of thinking/reading/etc, I'm planning on submitting my intent to enroll at SLS on Thursday or so, and I couldn't be happier/more comfortable with my decision. That said, no one will go wrong with Harvard obviously--both are fantastic schools and offer excellent opportunities to graduates of their schools.

[HAZMAT]

"Yale and Stanford are just fundamentally different from the rest of the T14."


Since when does different equal better??????

[dueprocess14]

I am of the firm belief that the only reason to choose SLS over HLS is the weather.

Are you confronting the decision? If you really think that's the only reason to attend SLS, I would bet that you haven't had the impetus to actually do any reading or (more importantly) serious thinking about the two. Harvard is a fantastic school, but there are a ton of reasons to attend Stanford (indeed, I don't think of Harvard as offering anything comparable to Yale or Stanford--it's really more comparable to Columbia or NYU, just with more name recognition and resources). There's a reason that so many opt for SLS over HLS, and while most consider SLS to be the odd man out in the HYS triad, I really think that as far as law schools are concerned, HLS is really the odd man out.

to name a few: smaller class size/ more accessible, better quality (although not quantity) clinicals / quality of life / teachers focused on teaching / more collegial atmosphere / joint degree programs .....I could go on, but there are just a number of considerations that would lead one to take Stanford over Harvard.

imo, while Harvard is a fantastic school, it just really doesn't offer much vis-a-vis Yale or Stanford besides name recognition. A lot of this is because the HLS is so different from the other two--it's hard to compare H and S, as Stanford is more a Yale-type school, while Harvard is more a Columbia-type school. They simply offer fundamentally different opportunities/incentives to an incoming student. Don't underestimate the differences between the small atmosphere of Stanford v. the lawyer-factory that is Harvard . But seriously, they all offer fantastic opportunities, but Yale and Stanford are just fundamentally different from the rest of the T14.

Purely anecdotal, but all of the current SLS students I've spoken with were cross-admits, and they're all very glad that they went to SLS over HLS when they look at their friends who went to HLS. SLS really seems like a fantastic, exciting place to be.

I'm posting this because that statement seemed to be ludicrous, not to hijack this thread, so I'll try not to argue too much--just wanted to throw in my .02 now that folks on this thread are confronting the decision. I was lucky enough to be admitted to both, and I'll say for my part that after a substantial amount of thinking/reading/etc, I'm planning on submitting my intent to enroll at SLS on Thursday or so, and I couldn't be happier/more comfortable with my decision. That said, no one will go wrong with Harvard obviously--both are fantastic schools and offer excellent opportunities to graduates of their schools.

I would +1 a lot of this. Any of YHS are fantastic opportunities and you can't go wrong, but as I've been talking to SLS profs and students the past few weeks I'm starting to consider SLS over both YLS and HLS, because I get the sense that the quality of the teaching, the faculty-student connections, and the support for interdisciplinary research is stronger at SLS than at either YLS or HLS. Those aren't the only reasons to pick a law school, but I would strongly research SLS before turning it down.

A lot of people on these boards are 0Ls (myself included) with little actual knowledge of these law schools and who are inclined to fixate on USNews and lay prestige elements of deciding a law school. As I have been told by students and faculty at all three of these schools, these are really stupid reasons to choose a law school, because any of YHS will give you the entree to a world of opportunities based on name alone - the question is what school will best provide you with want *you* want out of your law school experience. Do the research, talk to profs and students, and investigate opportunities. The statement that HLS is a better choice than SLS in all respects but weather is just patently absurd (sorry Obj).

[Objection]

to name a few: smaller class size/ more accessible, better quality (although not quantity) clinicals / quality of life / teachers focused on teaching / more collegial atmosphere / joint degree programs .....I could go on, but there are just a number of considerations that would lead one to take Stanford over Harvard.

I'm posting this because that statement seemed to be ludicrous

All of these - with the exception of smaller class size - are completely unsubstantiated and entirely subjective. This is fair if you are just attempting to give your opinion, but your opinion is hardly qualified to trump the opinions of others just because you say it does. However, if you have some evidence evidence that backs up your points that that clinics are better quality, the quality of life is better, the teachers are more focused on teaching, and the atmosphere is more collegial, please do.

Until then, it seems like a bad idea to call someone else's opinion ludicrous when yours has as little basis in objectivity as you insinuate theirs to have. That old adage about glasses houses and stones...

Furthermore, I began the post in question with "I am of the firm belief." It was a statement of opinion, not empirical fact. The beauty of opinions is that they inherently invite the right to disagree. However, disagreement does not mean dismissing as "ludicrous" an opinion that differs from your own opinion, which holds no more or no less weight than the other until it has some objectivity behind it. I don't desire to sway you, I was simply putting my $0.02 in about HLS vs SLS. Nor do I mean to anger you or incite hostilities - I just find it a bit perplexing when people dismiss the opinions of others simply because they clash with their own opinions. It's a bit of an insular mindset, no?

Anyway, to summarize why I feel the way I do:

I believe HLS has a better faculty.

I believe HLS has better clinics.

I believe that the quality of life in Boston trumps the quality of life in Palo Alto (California trumps Mass, for sure, but you're in law school, not summer camp - how often are you going to be traveling beyond the city in which your law school is for pleasure?)

I believe that accessibility is a lame argument, since all small class sizes tend to do is increase accessibility immediately after class. Given how universally underutilized office hours seem to be, and HLS' reading groups, I don't think the differences in accessibility is a big deal.

I believe HLS has a better alumni network.

I believe HLS has better connections to more major markets.

And I know that HLS has better lay prestige.

The statement that HLS is a better choice than SLS in all respects but weather is just patently absurd

I believe that HLS is equal to, or exceeds, SLS in every single area except weather (and, actually, federal clerkships - SLS does better than even YLS there). So I qualify my statement somewhat, but I stand by the overall sentiment.

All that being said, you'll be more than fine coming from either school. The differences are not that great. I simply believe that where there are difference, they are almost entirely in HLS' favor.

I have not heard from SLS yet, fwiw.

[packergirl13]

Put the deposit in the mailbox tonight....Oh so excited!

[dueprocess14]

Ok, I don't want to rain on anyone's parade here, because I think HLS is a fantastic law school and it has tons of things going for it. But for the sake of healthy debate, I'll take a crack at this. Not going to dispute the fact that everyone is entitled to their own opinions - I'm only going to present some counter-arguments that at least put a dent in the "better in all respects" argument.

I believe HLS has a better faculty.

Better how? Because Leiter's list of citations per faculty produces a better list at Harvard? I'm really not sure if this matters for most of your law school experience. Even the most dedicated faculty members can only have a handful of close advisees per year. With 1,650 students, I'm not as convinced I can ensure I'm one of them. Prolific scholars do not always equal caring mentors. I've heard many don't want to waste their time until you've already proven yourself out of your 550 classmates. I get the sense that SLS has a culture of stronger faculty-student interaction, having talked to profs at both, and it definitely, without question, has more interconnectedness with the other departments at the university.

I believe HLS has better clinics.

From my understanding, most clinics at HLS run on a lottery. At least, the two I wanted to join do. Personally, this is frustrating, especially since you can't join as a 1L. Further, with SLS' move to the quarter system, I believe you can spend one whole quarter SOLELY working on clinics. This is pretty fabulous. And at least for my interest in enemy combatant issues, Stanford has a much more robust clinic than Harvard (as does Yale).

I believe that the quality of life in Boston trumps the quality of life in Palo Alto (California trumps Mass, for sure, but you're in law school, not summer camp - how often are you going to be traveling beyond the city in which your law school is for pleasure?)

I define quality of life to be: access to fresh produce and organic markets, number of days of sunshine, average temperature, average rain (or in HLS' case, snow)fall, close proximity to natural open space, and demeanor of your peers. In my mind, SLS > HLS in every respect. Yes, Palo Alto has less going on than Boston. But with very few exceptions, no one I know at HLS spends much time in Boston, and I didn't personally find Cambridge to be super nice. Being able to go for a run outside almost any day of the year in shorts trumps any number of museums or bars, in my mind.

I believe that accessibility is a lame argument, since all small class sizes tend to do is increase accessibility immediately after class. Given how universally underutilized office hours seem to be, and HLS' reading groups, I don't think the differences in accessibility is a big deal.

Accessibility is WAY more than after class chit-chat. It means professors holding office hours you can sign up for. It means professors willing to supervise your work, read a draft of your paper, and give you feedback. It means having faculty go to bat for you when it comes time to apply for clerkships, academic jobs, or hard to score summer placements. Based on everything I have heard from students at both, SLS faculty are more accessible than at HLS. Of course there are great people who will bend over backwards at both, and of course the faculty at both are hella connected, but I get the sense that it's harder to access them at HLS in these various respects.

I believe HLS has a better alumni network.

Bigger, yes, better, I'm not as sure. With 3x as many HLS alums running around, the connection isn't going to mean as much.

I believe HLS has better connections to more major markets.

Definitely true. For someone interested in academia, this doesn't matter much to me.

And I know that HLS has better lay prestige.

I haven't heard one compelling reason from anyone, ever, for why this matters. Further, the fact that several HLS students at the ASW trumpeted this makes me skeptical of their intrinsic interests in choosing a law school. Prestige-mongers are not who I want my peer group to be. And at the level of YHS, lay prestige ain't taking you very far.

[Objection]

It's semi-pointless to argue opinions, but what the hell...

First, of course you can make the case for school A being better than school B if your interests are better represented at school A. By that same token, if I wanted a long and illustrious low wage doc review career, I could make the case that thomas cooley is better than HLS. That being said, it's a fair point that someone could reasonably choose SLS over HLS if SLS has better programs in their specific interests, but again, that doesn't necessarily make the school better, just a better fit (which, I know, goes away from the contention I made in my original post, but it seems that debate has shifted in this direction).

Better how? Because Leiter's list of citations per faculty produces a better list at Harvard? I'm really not sure if this matters for most of your law school experience. Even the most dedicated faculty members can only have a handful of close advisees per year. With 1,650 students, I'm not as convinced I can ensure I'm one of them. Prolific scholars do not always equal caring mentors. I've heard many don't want to waste their time until you've already proven yourself out of your 550 classmates. I get the sense that SLS has a culture of stronger faculty-student interaction, having talked to profs at both, and it definitely, without question, has more interconnectedness with the other departments at the university.

Better by both every objective data I've seen (mostly the Leiter data, such as membership in AAAS, citations, published works) as well as better just based on looking at a list of who's who. I'm curious to hear about "more interconnectedness" - afaik, at HLS, you can take classes at any Harvard college or grad school, as well as MIT and some of the other area schools. It's as interconnected as you'd like it to be.

From my understanding, most clinics at HLS run on a lottery. At least, the two I wanted to join do. Personally, this is frustrating, especially since you can't join as a 1L. Further, with SLS' move to the quarter system, I believe you can spend one whole quarter SOLELY working on clinics. This is pretty fabulous. And at least for my interest in enemy combatant issues, Stanford has a much more robust clinic than Harvard (as does Yale).

Perhaps, but on the flip side, you are unlikely to be completely shut out of a clinic that you really want to do (as per several faculty at the ASW). I personally don't see the big deal about joining clinics 1L year - you don't know enough law to do much of anything at that stage. Would you want to box Lennox Lewis as soon as you decide you want to be a boxer? It's better to learn the ropes first. That's personal opinion, though, like most of this discussion.

As for a whole quarter working on clinics - I don't know how long each SLS quarter is, but the HLS winter term allows you to work solely in a clinic for ~3 weeks.

Also, you can start your own clinic at HLS (beyond just an independent clinical). Don't know how it is at Yale.

I define quality of life to be: access to fresh produce and organic markets, number of days of sunshine, average temperature, average rain (or in HLS' case, snow)fall, close proximity to natural open space, and demeanor of your peers. In my mind, SLS > HLS in every respect. Yes, Palo Alto has less going on than Boston. But with very few exceptions, no one I know at HLS spends much time in Boston, and I didn't personally find Cambridge to be super nice. Being able to go for a run outside almost any day of the year in shorts trumps any number of museums or bars, in my mind.

Well, at least you backed up my weather remark. As for demeanor of peers, I understand you had a different experience with the students than most of us who reported back here, so again, that's completely subjective. This isn't to say your experience was wrong, just saying that it's not an empirical fact that SLS students have a more pleasant demeanor than HLS students.

Accessibility is WAY more than after class chit-chat. It means professors holding office hours you can sign up for. It means professors willing to supervise your work, read a draft of your paper, and give you feedback. It means having faculty go to bat for you when it comes time to apply for clerkships, academic jobs, or hard to score summer placements. Based on everything I have heard from students at both, SLS faculty are more accessible than at HLS. Of course there are great people who will bend over backwards at both, and of course the faculty at both are hella connected, but I get the sense that it's harder to access them at HLS in these various respects.

Ask professors how often they are swamped during their office hours. Ask students how often they and their friends went to office hours. Everything I've heard indicates that students don't go to office hours enough, and that professors would be readily accessible if they chose to do so. Throw in the HLS reading groups...

Furthermore, I'm not sure that the implicit criticism that HLS faculty won't go to bat for you when it's time to apply for clerkships, academic jobs, or hard to score summer placements has much basis since, objectively, HLS places better in all of those categories (although, as mentioned before, if you narrow it to federal clerkships, SLS places a higher %).

Bigger, yes, better, I'm not as sure. With 3x as many HLS alums running around, the connection isn't going to mean as much.

I'm not sure I follow you. It's bigger, sure - but they're HLS grads. They're not bums running around. The worth of an alumni network isn't measured by the scarcity of those alum, but rather the # of alum in positions of power. There is no weakening by saturation when it comes to alumni networks, particularly from HYS. If 20% of each schools' classes go on to achieve positions of power, it's better for HLS. Raw #s rule here, since the quality of grads are equal for the most part.

Definitely true. For someone interested in academia, this doesn't matter much to me.

Doesn't HLS place better in academia?

And at the level of YHS, lay prestige ain't taking you very far.

The point of lay prestige - for those to whom lay prestige matters - isn't lay prestige vs the other two of HYS, but vs the other 200+ (I think) accredited law schools.

[FrenchiePatootie]

Obj, congrats on making a fairly tough (but correct imo) decision.

Am I correct in remembering April 30 as the date we get our hosuing windows for affiliated housing?

hmm i thought it was the 26th...

edit: btw I'm submitting mine this week too! YAY
i hope i get a good window!

[pinkflamingo]

Congrats on everyone who is sending their deposits in this week! (I sent mine last week!)

[Krswmact]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I verified that you do not need to send in two passport sized photos as long you upload an appropriate picture to sidebar.

[mezzano87]

not sure if this is the right place to post this (not to mention, this question will probably seem inane to some) but: do i need to bring any 'dressy' clothes to the ASW - suit, ties, dress shirts, slacks? i'd prefer to not bring a garment bag on the plane, nor have to face the $15 charge for having more than two carry-ons...

thanks in advance

[lil.litworm]

not sure if this is the right place to post this (not to mention, this question will probably seem inane to some) but: do i need to bring any 'dressy' clothes to the ASW - suit, ties, dress shirts, slacks? i'd prefer to not bring a garment bag on the plane, nor have to face the $15 charge for having more than two carry-ons...

thanks in advance

De-lurking to say... You don't need any dressy clothes. As long as your clothes aren't hole-y you'll be perfectly fine in jeans and a sweater .

Oh, and seat deposit officially received! See you all in the fall!

[Pumpkin]

i'm really behind the curve as I didn't think I'd go here and now i'm leaning back towards it.

what is all this about windows for affiliated housing?