Official 2010 US News Law School Rankings Forum

[de5igual]

I'm pretty sure that Michigan, at #6, is better than UPenn State Law School.

I'm gonna have to agree with you... why the hell is Upenn State ranked above Michigan this year? Michigan has better architecture, professors, and name recognition. Upenn, on the other hand, is some podunk school in State College, isn't it?

Yeah, and they have 'Dick' in their name LOL

I do have to say that Upenn State has a great football team, though. It's good to see two Big 10 schools in the law school top 10.

blatant anti-NU trolling

[Adrian]

I'm pretty sure that Michigan, at #6, is better than UPenn State Law School.

I'm gonna have to agree with you... why the hell is Upenn State ranked above Michigan this year? Michigan has better architecture, professors, and name recognition. Upenn, on the other hand, is some podunk school in State College, isn't it?

Yeah, and they have 'Dick' in their name LOL

I do have to say that Upenn State has a great football team, though. It's good to see two Big 10 schools in the law school top 10.

Dude Penn is in the Ivy leage and that is the one that is the top 10 law school. Penn State is a completely different school that is in the Big 10 (not sure where it is ranked in terms of law school) and in my opinion an overrated conference when it comes in terms of football (the Rose Bowl is pretty much USC destroying whatever Big 10 school happens to win their conference).

[de5igual]

^someone clearly doesn't know his t10 schools

[Bosque]

Some people are dense/oblivious, aren't they?
Pretty sure they are all joking guys...

[darkarmour]

Wait, which Penn State campus is ranked #8? Philadelphia or College Park?

why does penn state refer to their two different law schools under different names? it's like they are trying to hide the family's dirty little secret... (lest we find out that they have a law school ranked... 65! as well). well their cover is blown.

[Adrian]

Wait, which Penn State campus is ranked #8? Philadelphia or College Park?

why does penn state refer to their two different law schools under different names? it's like they are trying to hide the family's dirty little secret... (lest we find out that they have a law school ranked... 65! as well). well their cover is blown.

lo well I am glad we cleared that up. It was more of a comment on Big 10 football either way

[legends159]

sorry if this has been covered, this is a massive thread:

but it seems that almost every school's score has gone up (at least within T20) relative to Yale's (which is set at 100).

Even GULC, whose GPA/LSAT 25/75 took a hit b/c of PT assesment, score went up 1 point. Does this mean that all the schools are getting better or that Yale is somehow a little bit worse than it was last year?

[Bosque]

sorry if this has been covered, this is a massive thread:

but it seems that almost every school's score has gone up (at least within T20) relative to Yale's (which is set at 100).

Even GULC, whose GPA/LSAT 25/75 took a hit b/c of PT assesment, score went up 1 point. Does this mean that all the schools are getting better or that Yale is somehow a little bit worse than it was last year?

I don't know if worse or better are the right words to use, but I think it is far more likely that Yale is falling into line with the other schools on the assessment criteria.

[sba314]

the Rose Bowl is pretty much USC destroying whatever Big 10 school happens to come in second place in their conference, because the big ten champ is usually at the BCS title game which USC doesn't reach on account of choking against a lesser opponent every year

fixed?

[JimBobIII]

Oh no, it's all a conspiracy!!!!

[Adrian]

the Rose Bowl is pretty much USC destroying whatever Big 10 school happens to come in second place in their conference, because the big ten champ is usually at the BCS title game which USC doesn't reach on account of choking against a lesser opponent every year

fixed?

Well this year USC and Penn State were number one in their conference, so to make the correction the Big 10 team that is in the national championship gets destroyed by an SEC team.

[darkarmour]

the Rose Bowl is pretty much USC destroying whatever Big 10 school happens to come in second place in their conference, because the big ten champ is usually at the BCS title game which USC doesn't reach on account of choking against a lesser opponent every year

fixed?

Well this year USC and Penn State were number one in their conference, so to make the correction the Big 10 team that is in the national championship gets destroyed by an SEC team.

I hate on USC (being a UCLA alum), so I'll have to go with Upenn State football. Besides, Upenn State has a top 10 law school, while USC's a TTT.

[chadstew55]

Some people are dense/oblivious, aren't they?
Pretty sure they are all joking guys...

TITCR

[ejf11]

Even though I feel like this "Upenn State" guy is the same person as sixigan Michigan, let me try to help you:

There is no Upenn State. There is the University of Pennsylvania - an ivy league school located in Philly. It has a crappy football team and a t-14 law school.

Then, there is also Penn State University. This school also has a crappy football team, coached by Joe Pat, located in College Park and a lot of skanky girls go there. They have a law school ranked a lot lower than the University of Pennsylvania.

Also, sixigan, I read that Michigan's ranking was a mistake. Look up Michigan State University, and you will see that in reality, they fell off the map and are now a tier-3 school located in East Lansing. It was actually a typo that made them seem like they hit 6th place. It was supposed to say Muskegon Lake School. Starting salary avg is 43k. I am sorry about this, but you deserve it! Honestly though, Michigan has been slipping for years in all aspects. . . caliber of student, wealth of the city, surrounding areas and State. The football team. your mom. . .

[de5igual]

Some people are dense/oblivious, aren't they?
Pretty sure they are all joking guys...

or maybe some people like to keep the game going

[thedogship]

There is no Upenn State. There is the University of Pennsylvania - an ivy league school located in Philly. It has a crappy football team and a t-14 law school.

Then, there is also Penn State University. This school also has a crappy football team, coached by Joe Pat, located in College Park and a lot of skanky girls go there. They have a law school ranked a lot lower than the University of Pennsylvania.

Problems with this post:
1. You called him "Joe Pat" instead of "Joe Pa"
2. The school is in State College, PA, not College Park, which is where the University of Maryland is located.
3. You insinuate that there is actually two distinct schools, when in fact they are the same school.

it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about and your entire post should be interpreted as a scathing lie. UPenn State will have a dominant season and be in the Orange Bowl next season. Go Quaker Lions!

[Bankhead]

There is no Upenn State. There is the University of Pennsylvania - an ivy league school located in Philly. It has a crappy football team and a t-14 law school.

Then, there is also Penn State University. This school also has a crappy football team, coached by Joe Pat, located in College Park and a lot of skanky girls go there. They have a law school ranked a lot lower than the University of Pennsylvania.

Problems with this post:
1. You called him "Joe Pat" instead of "Joe Pa"
2. The school is in State College, PA, not College Park, which is where the University of Maryland is located.
3. You insinuate that there is actually two distinct schools, when in fact they are the same school.

it is clear that you don't know what you are talking about and your entire post should be interpreted as a scathing lie. UPenn State will have a dominant season and be in the Orange Bowl next season. Go Quaker Lions!

I wish they would just combine UPenn and Penn State into one law school. Then you'd have a decent top 30 school, with reasonable admission standards. It could be the GW of PA.

[darkarmour]

Ok, I think I've milked this long enough.

"Upenn State" is actually an internet meme coined in Abovethelaw.com's post about the 2009 rankings [link (LinkRemoved)]. It's an expression designed to play on the insecurities of internet ninjas who feel the burning desire to correct and differentiate between Upenn and Penn State.

The use of the troll/meme obliterated ATL's comment threads for many a month, and swung over to autoadmit, but, for some reason, never caught on here. Anyway, if you took the post seriously, you're a noob to the law school admissions internetz.

[Protip, click my profile link]

[sba314]

the Rose Bowl is pretty much USC destroying whatever Big 10 school happens to come in second place in their conference, because the big ten champ is usually at the BCS title game which USC doesn't reach on account of choking against a lesser opponent every year

fixed?

Well this year USC and Penn State were number one in their conference, so to make the correction the Big 10 team that is in the national championship gets destroyed by an SEC team.

True. But then again, who doesn't get destroyed by SEC teams in the title game?

[ajtheaj]

3.9 / 166 will be attending Texas. Of the schools on this chart, I had:

Admit 2 / 3) - Waitlist, withdrew at one, in at the others
Pos (0 / 4) - Waitlist, withdrew at all
Neg (0 / 2) - Waitlist/Held, withdrew at all
Reject (0 / 0)

[Bosque]

3.9 / 166 will be attending Texas. Of the schools on this chart, I had:

Admit 2 / 3) - Waitlist, withdrew at one, in at the others
Pos (0 / 4) - Waitlist, withdrew at all
Neg (0 / 2) - Waitlist/Held, withdrew at all
Reject (0 / 0)

I think you think you are posting this somewhere else...

[LegalEase]

2007-2008 Hylton Rankings of ALL Law Schools

The 2007-08 Rankings:
FIRST QUARTILE Raw Score 2006 Ranking
1. Yale 92 2
2. Harvard 90 1
3. Columbia 87.5 3
4. University of Chicago 86.5 5
4. Stanford 86.5 3
6. New York University 86 6
7. Michigan 83 8
7. Virginia 83 7
9. Pennsylvania 82 9
10. California—Berkeley 80 10
10. Georgetown 80 11
12. Northwestern 79 12
13. Cornell 78 14
13. Duke 78 13
15. UCLA 75.5 15
16. Texas 75 15
17. Southern California 73 17
18. Vanderbilt 72.5 18
19. Minnesota 70 19
20. Washington University 69.5 21
21. Boston University 68.5 23
21. George Washington 68.5 20
21. Notre Dame 68.5 25
21. Washington & Lee 68.5 21
25. Emory 68 27
26. Illinois 67.5 23
27. Boston College 67 29
27. Fordham 67 26
29. California-Davis 66 33
29. North Carolina 66 27
29. William & Mary 66 30
32. Iowa 64.5 30
32. Wisconsin 64.5 30
34. California—Hastings 63.5 33
34. Ohio State 63.5 37
34. University of Washington 63.5 64
37. Wake Forest 63 35
38. Indiana-Bloomington 62.5 37
39. Arizona 62 39
39. Colorado 62 42
41. Brigham Young 61.5 44
41. Maryland 61.5 47
43. Tulane 61 39
44. Yeshiva-Cardozo 60.5 45
45. Alabama 60 51
45. Connecticut 60 47
45. George Mason 60 47
45. Georgia 60 42
SECOND QUARTILE Raw Score 2006 Ranking
49. American 59.5 46
49. San Diego 59.5 47
51. Brooklyn 59 52
51. Florida 59 39
53. Arizona St. 57.5 60
53. Florida St. 57.5 56
53. Pittsburgh 57.5 58
53. Villanova 57.5 53
57. Chicago-Kent 57 53
57. Oregon 57 63
57. SMU 57 67
57. Temple 57 56
61. Utah 56.5 53
62. Case Western 56 58
62. Lewis & Clark 56 71
62. Loyola-Chicago 56 71
62. Loyola-Los Angeles 56 60
62. Miami 56 63
62. Rutgers-Camden 56 63
68. Houston 55.5 60
68. Seton Hall 55.5 71
70. Baylor 54 63
70. Cincinnati 54 71
70. Kansas 54 79
70. Missouri 54 68
70. Tennessee 54 68
75. Kentucky 53.5 68
75. Richmond 53.5 76
77. Rutgers-Newark 53 76
78. Georgia St. 52.5 84
78. Pepperdine 52.5 87
78. Santa Clara 52.5 79
78. St. Johns 52.5 76
82. Catholic 52 83
82. DePaul 52 81
82. Hawaii 52 84
82. Northeastern 52 71
86. Denver 51.5 81
86. Indiana-Indianapolis 51.5 91
88. Nebraska 51 91
88. Oklahoma 51 87
90. UNLV 50.5 102
90. South Carolina 50.5 91
THIRD QUARTILE Raw Score 2006 Ranking
92. Marquette 50 91
92. New Mexico 50 102
92. Penn St.-Dickenson 50 105
92. San Francisco 50 87
92. St. Louis 50 87
92. Wayne St. 50 97
98. LSU 49.5 95
98. Louisville 49.5 97
98. Michigan St. 49.5 97
98. Seattle 49.5 105
98. SUNY-Buffalo 49.5 95
103. Syracuse 49 97
104. Hofstra 48.5 84
104. Willamette 48.5 111
106. Arkansas-Fayetteville 48 105
107. Maine 47.5 104
107. Pacific-McGeorge 47.5 97
107. Quinnipiac 47.5 111
107. Toledo 47.5 105
111. Mississippi 47 109
112. Albany 46 111
112. Gonzaga 46 121
114. Akron 45.5 111
114. Drake 45.5 124
114. Mercer 45.5 117
114. New York Law 45.5 111
114. Samford-Cumberland 45.5 128
114. Stetson 45.5 121
114. Suffolk 45.5 121
121. Creighton 45 135
121. Missouri-Kansas City 45 111
121. Pace 45 117
121. Vermont 45 109
125. Arkansas-Little Rock 44.5 117
125. Washburn 44.5 142
127. Cleveland St. 44 128
127. Idaho 44 117
127. St. Thomas (MN) 44 ---
127. Texas Tech 44 124
127. William Mitchell 44 134
132. Chapman 43.5 148
132. Hamline 43.5 128
132. Loyola-New Orleans 43.5 124
132. Memphis 43.5 128
136. Howard 43 139
136. Montana 43 128
136. Southwestern 43 128
136. West Virginia 43 146
FOURTH QUARTILE Raw Score 2006 Ranking
140. Baltimore 42.5 135
140. Duquesne 42.5 139
140. John Marshall 42.5 142
143. City Univ. of New York 42 152
143. Franklin Pierce 42 142
143. South Dakota 42 148
143. Texas Wesleyan 42 148
143. Tulsa 42 142
143. Wyoming 42 139
149. Dayton 41.5 135
149. Northern Kentucky 41.5 148
149. Southern Illinois 41.5 124
152. Widener 41 158
152. Valparaiso 41 146
154. California Western 40.5 152
154. Northern Illinois 40.5 135
154. Roger Williams 40.5 158
154. South Texas 40.5 152
154. St. Mary’s 40.5 152
159. Capitol 40 152
159. North Dakota 40 161
159. Western New England 40 163
162. Campbell 39.5 152
162. Florida International 39.5 ---
164. New England 39 163
164. Nova Southeastern 39 166
164. Touro 39 163
167. Golden Gate 38.5 161
167. Ohio Northern 38.5 169
169. Ave Maria 38 158
170. Regent 37.5 169
171. Whittier 37 167
172. Oklahoma City 35.5 171
172. Thomas Jefferson 35.5 167
174. Detroit Mercy 35 173
175. Florida Coastal 34.5 173
175. Mississippi College 34.5 171
177. U. of the District of Columbia 34 173
177. North Carolina Central 34 177
179. St. Thomas (FL) 33.5 176
180. thomas cooley 33 178
181. Appalachian 32.5 ---
181. Texas Southern 32.5 179
183. Barry 31 ---
184. Southern 30.5 180
Additional Comments
1. The Formula for the Hylton Ratings.
To obtain a single number for ranking purposes the Hylton Rankings combine the
US News Peer Assessment Score times 10 with the mean of the 25th and 75th LSAT
percentiles minus 130. These adjustments produce a number between 10 and 50 for both
categories. For example, Yale Law School, the highest ranked school in the US News
rankings, has a Peer Assessment score of 4.9 which converts to 49. It 25% and 75%
LSAT scores are 170 and 176 which average 173. 173 minus 130 equals 43 which is then
added to the Peer Assessment score for a total score of 92 out of a possible 100.
Although it may seem arbitrary, deducting 130 from the LSAT score actually
converts the score into a meaningful number. LSDAS and ABA data suggest that
virtually no one is accepted to law school with an LSAT score below 140, hence the real
range of LSAT scores is the 40 point range between 140 and180. The current medium
Peer Assessment score is 2.3 (or 23 for rankings purposes), and the current medium
LSAT score is 157 (or 27 for ranking purposes).
2. Which Law Schools Were Most Hurt and Most Helped by the US News Formula?
There is very little variation between the Hylton Rankings and the US News
Ratings at the top of the chart. The 21 highest ranked schools in the US News Rankings
are all ranked between 1 and 21 in the Hylton Rankings. There are, however, significant
differences below this level.
The six schools which benefit most from the U.S. News’ use of additional
categories are New Mexico (ranked 22 places higher than in the Hylton Rankings);
Toledo (also +22); SUNY Buffalo (+21); Kentucky (+15); Mercer (+14); Stetson (+14).
In addition, four schools ranking in the “3rd Tier” in the US News Ratings (Florida
International, Franklin Pierce, Southern Illinois, and Wyoming) would be in the “4th Tier”
if the Hylton Rankings scoring system was used.
The schools that are harmed most by the additional US News categories are San
Diego (which dropped 36 places below where it would have been under the Hylton
Rankings); Lewis & Clark ( -20); Oregon (-15); Catholic (-15); and Santa Clara (-13). In
addition, Wayne State which ranks number 92 in the Hylton Rankings drops to Tier 4 in
the US News Rankings. Similarly, Michigan St., ranked 98 in the Hylton Rankings, is
placed in Tier 3 in the US News Ratings. Willamette, Chapman, and Hamline, all placed
in Tier 4 in the US News Rankings would be in Tier 3 if the Hylton Rankings formula
was used.
3. Which Law Schools Experienced the Greatest Change in their Hylton Ranking
Between 2006 and 2007?
Because the Hylton Rankings use fewer categories, and the categories are
relatively stable from year to year, there is less movement from one year to the next in the
Hylton Rankings than in its US News counterpart. As the above chart reveals, the
schools at the top of the Hylton rankings remained very stable. None of the top 21
schools moved more than one place in the rankings. However, a small number of schools
did make seemingly significant movement up or down in the rankings.
Six schools moved up more than ten places in the rankings. They were:
Washburn (+17, from #142 to #125); Chapman (+16, from #148 to #132); Samford-
Cumberland (+14, from #128 to #114); Creighton (+14, from #135 to #121); Penn St-
Dickenson (+13, from #105 to #92); and UNLV (+12, from #102 to #90).
The reason for the improvement in ranking is primarily the result of increased
LSAT scores. All six schools reported higher LSAT scores this year, and four of the six
(Washburn, Chapman, Samford, and UNLV) saw their Peer Assessment scores increase
by one-tenth of a point over 2006. All six schools were ranked below #100 in 2006,
though Penn State-Dickinson and UNLV are now ranked #92 and #90, respectively.
Eight schools dropped more than ten places in the rankings. They were: Southern
Illinois (-25, from #124 to #149); Hofstra (-20, from #84 to #104); Northern Illinois (-19,
from #135 to #154); Dayton (-14, from #135 to #149); Florida (-12, from #39 to #51);
Vermont (-12, from #109 to #121); Northeastern (-11 from #71 to #82); and Ave Maria (-
11 from #158 to #169). Southern Illinois, Hofstra, Florida, and Ave Maria experienced
both a one-tenth of a point drop in their Peer Assessment scores and a decline in LSAT
scores. The peer assessment scores remained the same for the other four, although each
experienced a drop in LSAT scores.
Of the fourteen schools that moved more than ten places in the rankings, only one
(the University of Florida) was ranked among the top fifty schools in 2006. Florida also
experienced the large change in its raw score of any school as it dropped from 62.5 in
2006 to 59 in 2007. This was the result of its Peer Assessment score dropping from 3.2
in 2006 to 3.1 in 2007, and its LSAT 25% / 75% range declining from 157/164 to
155/161.
4. Why Are There 184 Schools Ranked This Year?
Four schools which recently achieved full ABA accreditation were ranked for the
first time in 2007. They were St. Thomas of Minnesota (#127); Florida International
(#162), Appalachian (#181), and Barry (#183).

[Mr. Matlock]

2007-2008 Hylton Rankings of ALL Law Schools
1. The Formula for the Hylton Ratings.
To obtain a single number for ranking purposes the Hylton Rankings combine the
US News Peer Assessment Score times 10 with the mean of the 25th and 75th LSAT
percentiles minus 130. These adjustments produce a number between 10 and 50 for both
categories. For example, Yale Law School, the highest ranked school in the US News
rankings, has a Peer Assessment score of 4.9 which converts to 49. It 25% and 75%
LSAT scores are 170 and 176 which average 173. 173 minus 130 equals 43 which is then
added to the Peer Assessment score for a total score of 92 out of a possible 100.
Although it may seem arbitrary, deducting 130 from the LSAT score actually
converts the score into a meaningful number. LSDAS and ABA data suggest that
virtually no one is accepted to law school with an LSAT score below 140, hence the real
range of LSAT scores is the 40 point range between 140 and180. The current medium
Peer Assessment score is 2.3 (or 23 for rankings purposes), and the current medium
LSAT score is 157 (or 27 for ranking purposes).
2. Which Law Schools Were Most Hurt and Most Helped by the US News Formula?
There is very little variation between the Hylton Rankings and the US News
Ratings at the top of the chart. The 21 highest ranked schools in the US News Rankings
are all ranked between 1 and 21 in the Hylton Rankings. There are, however, significant
differences below this level.
The six schools which benefit most from the U.S. News’ use of additional
categories are New Mexico (ranked 22 places higher than in the Hylton Rankings);
Toledo (also +22); SUNY Buffalo (+21); Kentucky (+15); Mercer (+14); Stetson (+14).
In addition, four schools ranking in the “3rd Tier” in the US News Ratings (Florida
International, Franklin Pierce, Southern Illinois, and Wyoming) would be in the “4th Tier”
if the Hylton Rankings scoring system was used.
The schools that are harmed most by the additional US News categories are San
Diego (which dropped 36 places below where it would have been under the Hylton
Rankings); Lewis & Clark ( -20); Oregon (-15); Catholic (-15); and Santa Clara (-13). In
addition, Wayne State which ranks number 92 in the Hylton Rankings drops to Tier 4 in
the US News Rankings. Similarly, Michigan St., ranked 98 in the Hylton Rankings, is
placed in Tier 3 in the US News Ratings. Willamette, Chapman, and Hamline, all placed
in Tier 4 in the US News Rankings would be in Tier 3 if the Hylton Rankings formula
was used.
3. Which Law Schools Experienced the Greatest Change in their Hylton Ranking
Between 2006 and 2007?
Because the Hylton Rankings use fewer categories, and the categories are
relatively stable from year to year, there is less movement from one year to the next in the
Hylton Rankings than in its US News counterpart. As the above chart reveals, the
schools at the top of the Hylton rankings remained very stable. None of the top 21
schools moved more than one place in the rankings. However, a small number of schools
did make seemingly significant movement up or down in the rankings.
Six schools moved up more than ten places in the rankings. They were:
Washburn (+17, from #142 to #125); Chapman (+16, from #148 to #132); Samford-
Cumberland (+14, from #128 to #114); Creighton (+14, from #135 to #121); Penn St-
Dickenson (+13, from #105 to #92); and UNLV (+12, from #102 to #90).
The reason for the improvement in ranking is primarily the result of increased
LSAT scores. All six schools reported higher LSAT scores this year, and four of the six
(Washburn, Chapman, Samford, and UNLV) saw their Peer Assessment scores increase
by one-tenth of a point over 2006. All six schools were ranked below #100 in 2006,
though Penn State-Dickinson and UNLV are now ranked #92 and #90, respectively.
Eight schools dropped more than ten places in the rankings. They were: Southern
Illinois (-25, from #124 to #149); Hofstra (-20, from #84 to #104); Northern Illinois (-19,
from #135 to #154); Dayton (-14, from #135 to #149); Florida (-12, from #39 to #51);
Vermont (-12, from #109 to #121); Northeastern (-11 from #71 to #82); and Ave Maria (-
11 from #158 to #169). Southern Illinois, Hofstra, Florida, and Ave Maria experienced
both a one-tenth of a point drop in their Peer Assessment scores and a decline in LSAT
scores. The peer assessment scores remained the same for the other four, although each
experienced a drop in LSAT scores.
Of the fourteen schools that moved more than ten places in the rankings, only one
(the University of Florida) was ranked among the top fifty schools in 2006. Florida also
experienced the large change in its raw score of any school as it dropped from 62.5 in
2006 to 59 in 2007. This was the result of its Peer Assessment score dropping from 3.2
in 2006 to 3.1 in 2007, and its LSAT 25% / 75% range declining from 157/164 to
155/161.
4. Why Are There 184 Schools Ranked This Year?
Four schools which recently achieved full ABA accreditation were ranked for the
first time in 2007. They were St. Thomas of Minnesota (#127); Florida International
(#162), Appalachian (#181), and Barry (#183).

Do you ever get the feeling that you may be a day late and a dollar short?

[Bosque]

Shhh... don't acknowledge it.

[3yearsnoprob]

Way to go TLS!

Now update UT at 15, please

Learn to read please?