how golden is my friend? retake or no? Forum

[DOOM]

My advice: Ride that 175 into the sunset. DO NOT RETAKE! Retaking the LSAT--with a 175 in hand!--is an unnecessary ego trip. Plus, you run the risk of scoring lower.

This is probably the single best reason not to retake.

He's going to HYS. Probably will have a choice between all three.

[Lmao Zedong]

Probably will have a choice between all three.

we've already established that this is not the case

[rundoxierun]

FWIW, Im a black UG junior right now with ~3.6 LSDAS GPA and 177 LSAT and people who actually work in admissions have told me that I will be almost a lock for Harvard next cycle. So yea, your friend should be a lock. In fact, he will likely be the top black applicant this cycle with the 175 combined with a ~3.7

seriously?

Yea seriously, i have seen numbers from last cycle(2008-2009).. only 1 black applicant with GPA of 3.5+ and LSAT 175+. You have to remember that that LSAT is already at the 99.5th percentile or so for the general population and African-Americans overall score very poorly. That would definitely make a 175 around the 99.99th percentile for black applicants.

What data are you referring to?

Data that isnt freely available.. I accessed it through someone involved in admissions.

[09042014]

I know of a black applicant with a much lower GPA and a slightly lower score than 175 who got into Harvard.

3.7 175 AA probably has a much chance at yale as a 3.7 180 AA. At Yale high numbers get your application considered, but won't get you in. At most schools the higher the better, but at Yale that isn't the case.

And he will be in at Harvard no matter what.

[CoaltoNewCastle]

3.7 175 AA probably has a much chance at yale as a 3.7 180 AA. At Yale high numbers get your application considered, but won't get you in. At most schools the higher the better, but at Yale that isn't the case.

People keep saying this, but I don't think it's true. I believe the Yale admissions blog says that there are a few apps that are so strong that they don't even need to go to faculty review. People in this thread keep indicating that a 180 won't help him any more than a 175, but that just doesn't make sense. The "his numbers aren't what's holding him back" argument is silly. If a 3.7/175 gave him maybe an 80% chance of getting into Yale, a 3.7/180 would give him a higher percent chance. And even in faculty review they of course look at the numbers. Otherwise Yale's numbers might not be noticeably higher than Harvard's.

[09042014]

3.7 175 AA probably has a much chance at yale as a 3.7 180 AA. At Yale high numbers get your application considered, but won't get you in. At most schools the higher the better, but at Yale that isn't the case.

People keep saying this, but I don't think it's true. I believe the Yale admissions blog says that there are a few apps that are so strong that they don't even need to go to faculty review. People in this thread keep indicating that a 180 won't help him any more than a 175, but that just doesn't make sense. The "his numbers aren't what's holding him back" argument is silly. If a 3.7/175 gave him maybe an 80% chance of getting into Yale, a 3.7/180 would give him a higher percent chance. And even in faculty review they of course look at the numbers. Otherwise Yale's numbers might not be noticeably higher than Harvard's.

He will probably be the strongest African American candidate as is. If he were not a URM I think he'd benefit. But when you adjust his numbers for URM he is basically a 4.0/180 already

And Yale's numbers are only barely better than Harvard's.

[CoaltoNewCastle]

3.7 175 AA probably has a much chance at yale as a 3.7 180 AA. At Yale high numbers get your application considered, but won't get you in. At most schools the higher the better, but at Yale that isn't the case.

People keep saying this, but I don't think it's true. I believe the Yale admissions blog says that there are a few apps that are so strong that they don't even need to go to faculty review. People in this thread keep indicating that a 180 won't help him any more than a 175, but that just doesn't make sense. The "his numbers aren't what's holding him back" argument is silly. If a 3.7/175 gave him maybe an 80% chance of getting into Yale, a 3.7/180 would give him a higher percent chance. And even in faculty review they of course look at the numbers. Otherwise Yale's numbers might not be noticeably higher than Harvard's.

He will probably be the strongest African American candidate as is. If he were not a URM I think he'd benefit. But when you adjust his numbers for URM he is basically a 4.0/180 already

And Yale's numbers are only barely better than Harvard's.

I think you're exaggerating. I think being black makes his numbers look more like 3.85/180 to them, going by the common +9ish LSAT metric (raising the gpa to make up for maxed out LSAT). A 3.7/180 would be like a 4.0ish/180 to them though. I don't think he'll be the strongest African American candidate either. That's kind of ridiculous. I've known a black person or two with insane numbers. You really don't think there's even one black candidate in the cycle with something like a 4.0 and a 173+ in the application cycle? You think out of roughly 600 people who get a 175+ in a year, there isn't one black person getting one of those high scores in combination with a high gpa?

[RussianGirl]

so, whats the verdict??

[rayiner]

OP is well above Yale's median LSAT. Retaking wouldn't have helped.

[rundoxierun]

3.7 175 AA probably has a much chance at yale as a 3.7 180 AA. At Yale high numbers get your application considered, but won't get you in. At most schools the higher the better, but at Yale that isn't the case.

People keep saying this, but I don't think it's true. I believe the Yale admissions blog says that there are a few apps that are so strong that they don't even need to go to faculty review. People in this thread keep indicating that a 180 won't help him any more than a 175, but that just doesn't make sense. The "his numbers aren't what's holding him back" argument is silly. If a 3.7/175 gave him maybe an 80% chance of getting into Yale, a 3.7/180 would give him a higher percent chance. And even in faculty review they of course look at the numbers. Otherwise Yale's numbers might not be noticeably higher than Harvard's.

He will probably be the strongest African American candidate as is. If he were not a URM I think he'd benefit. But when you adjust his numbers for URM he is basically a 4.0/180 already

And Yale's numbers are only barely better than Harvard's.

I think you're exaggerating. I think being black makes his numbers look more like 3.85/180 to them, going by the common +9ish LSAT metric (raising the gpa to make up for maxed out LSAT). A 3.7/180 would be like a 4.0ish/180 to them though. I don't think he'll be the strongest African American candidate either. That's kind of ridiculous. I've known a black person or two with insane numbers. You really don't think there's even one black candidate in the cycle with something like a 4.0 and a 173+ in the application cycle? You think out of roughly 600 people who get a 175+ in a year, there isn't one black person getting one of those high scores in combination with a high gpa?

I know for a fact that last cycle this person wouldve been among the top 2 black applicants last cycle. It isnt that unlikely that out of 600 in the general population that only a few of those(i.e. single digits) are black considering blacks overall score significantly worse than many other groups. So out of those single digits of 175+ scorers it isnt that unlikely for all but 1 to have less than a 3.5 GPA. Im not sure why you would think any differently. 175 is the 99.5th percentile for general population, it is almost certainly the 99.9xth percentile for blacks.

[hiromoto45]

bump with an update of the situation and a new question.

so, my friend sat on the 175 and applied to yale. he was recently rejected (to recap, black, 3.7/175 from a good private school). does retaking the LSAT and reapplying make more sense now if he really has his heart set on yale? he was a pretty consistent 178+ on PTs when we were prepping together, so i don't doubt he'd be more likely to go up than down on a retake.

thanks

Do black ppl go to Yale law? Why does your friend think he was rejected? Is he socially awkward and only have his GPA and test score to show for him? Even so, I'm surprised he got a flat out rejection. I think there is more than what you are telling.

[kazu]

Do black ppl go to Yale law?

......

[CoaltoNewCastle]

You looked at all the black applicants to a Harvardish school? If you really did and know for a fact that there were no better candidates, then I guess I'm wrong. While I understand that blacks get lower scores, I figured that among the portion of blacks who tend to go to top schools and don't grow up in black, underfunded communities there would be more than just a few getting 175's and higher. I'm certainly getting no help from LSN on this front.

[rundoxierun]

You looked at all the black applicants to a Harvardish school? If you really did and know for a fact that there were no better candidates, then I guess I'm wrong. While I understand that blacks get lower scores, I figured that among the portion of blacks who tend to go to top schools and don't grow up in black, underfunded communities there would be more than just a few getting 175's and higher. I'm certainly getting no help from LSN on this front.

LSAC ethnic applicant volume summary says 9,870 black applicants Fall 2009(of which 4,180 were admitted). I dont think that anyone doubts that a 99.5th percentile general population score is at the 99.9xth percentile for blacks. That would mean if we conservatively assume just 99.9 as the percentile, less that 10 blacks scored 175+.. if we assume something more moderate like 99.95 as the percentile rank for 175+ we get less than 5 blacks with score of 175+.. and at the extreme if we assume 99.98 as the percentile that leaves us with 1 or 2 black applicants getting a 175+.

EDIT: If not clear, the data I saw was for all black applicants at every ABA school for the cycle, not just Harvardish schools.

[Lmao Zedong]

Do black ppl go to Yale law?

lmao

did you really just ask this?

[Lmao Zedong]

You looked at all the black applicants to a Harvardish school? If you really did and know for a fact that there were no better candidates, then I guess I'm wrong. While I understand that blacks get lower scores, I figured that among the portion of blacks who tend to go to top schools and don't grow up in black, underfunded communities there would be more than just a few getting 175's and higher. I'm certainly getting no help from LSN on this front.

LSAC ethnic applicant volume summary says 9,870 black applicants Fall 2009(of which 4,180 were admitted). I dont think that anyone doubts that a 99.5th percentile general population score is at the 99.9xth percentile for blacks. That would mean if we conservatively assume just 99.9 as the percentile, less that 10 blacks scored 175+.. if we assume something more moderate like 99.95 as the percentile rank for 175+ we get less than 5 blacks with score of 175+.. and at the extreme if we assume 99.98 as the percentile that leaves us with 1 or 2 black applicants getting a 175+.

EDIT: If not clear, the data I saw was for all black applicants at every ABA school for the cycle, not just Harvardish schools.

i'd never run the numbers on this, but your math looks solid to me. pretty crazy. i'm just more surprised now than i was before that he didn't get in. he's a well-rounded guy outside the numbers, no dark marks on his app, involved on campus, i'd imagine good recs, etc

[hiromoto45]

Do black ppl go to Yale law?

lmao

did you really just ask this?

I was being facetious, but you have to wonder.

There is average of 6 black males at Yale a year.

[Kohinoor]

You looked at all the black applicants to a Harvardish school? If you really did and know for a fact that there were no better candidates, then I guess I'm wrong. While I understand that blacks get lower scores, I figured that among the portion of blacks who tend to go to top schools and don't grow up in black, underfunded communities there would be more than just a few getting 175's and higher. I'm certainly getting no help from LSN on this front.

LSAC ethnic applicant volume summary says 9,870 black applicants Fall 2009(of which 4,180 were admitted). I dont think that anyone doubts that a 99.5th percentile general population score is at the 99.9xth percentile for blacks. That would mean if we conservatively assume just 99.9 as the percentile, less that 10 blacks scored 175+.. if we assume something more moderate like 99.95 as the percentile rank for 175+ we get less than 5 blacks with score of 175+.. and at the extreme if we assume 99.98 as the percentile that leaves us with 1 or 2 black applicants getting a 175+.

EDIT: If not clear, the data I saw was for all black applicants at every ABA school for the cycle, not just Harvardish schools.

Applicants =/= test takers. conclusion flawed because premise flawed.

[booby87]

.

[CoaltoNewCastle]

Damn, I guess you're right, sorry. Though I still doubt he's the top black applicant. Why didn't this guy get in?! He wasn't even waitlisted?

[Kohinoor]

Damn, I guess you're right, sorry. Though I still doubt he's the top black applicant. Why didn't this guy get in?! He wasn't even waitlisted?

People know much less about the process than they like to think they do.

[rundoxierun]

You looked at all the black applicants to a Harvardish school? If you really did and know for a fact that there were no better candidates, then I guess I'm wrong. While I understand that blacks get lower scores, I figured that among the portion of blacks who tend to go to top schools and don't grow up in black, underfunded communities there would be more than just a few getting 175's and higher. I'm certainly getting no help from LSN on this front.

LSAC ethnic applicant volume summary says 9,870 black applicants Fall 2009(of which 4,180 were admitted). I dont think that anyone doubts that a 99.5th percentile general population score is at the 99.9xth percentile for blacks. That would mean if we conservatively assume just 99.9 as the percentile, less that 10 blacks scored 175+.. if we assume something more moderate like 99.95 as the percentile rank for 175+ we get less than 5 blacks with score of 175+.. and at the extreme if we assume 99.98 as the percentile that leaves us with 1 or 2 black applicants getting a 175+.

EDIT: If not clear, the data I saw was for all black applicants at every ABA school for the cycle, not just Harvardish schools.

Applicants =/= test takers. conclusion flawed because premise flawed.

Yea, No data on test takers by ethnicity but trust me, the conclusion is not flawed. Not only is the number of black applicants with 175+ and 3.5+ only a few a year.. the number of black applicants with even 165+ and 3.5+ was only around 50 last cycle if I remember correctly. Black law applicants are just much much less qualified in general. Only 4,180 of 9,870 black applicants admitted last cycle. That is just incredibly bad. My sister actually had a friend last year applying to law school. The girl was a vandy undergrad, 3.5ish gpa in criminology(i know), member of the obligatory campus organizations and after all that only scored a 140 on the LSAT. For some reason(s) the LSAT is a major hurdle for the majority of otherwise qualified black applicants.

But yea, Yale (and Stanford to a lesser extent) is just a whole different ball game. Those guys have hundreds of applicants with phds, founders of service organizations, high level work experience, etc. To a certain degree at that level it takes on the randomness that you see with high level undergrad admissions.

[hiromoto45]

"the number of black applicants with even 165+ and 3.5+ was only around 50 last cycle "

Where did you get this information...that is not accurate at all.

[rundoxierun]

"the number of black applicants with even 165+ and 3.5+ was only around 50 last cycle "

Where did you get this information...that is not accurate at all.

I attended one of the diversity summer programs that LSAC sponsors with a university to promote diversity. When I updated the program on my LSAT result one of the admission officers shared some stats with me. I dont see why everyone thinks this is so shocking. Do you not realize that many T14 schools have to dip into the upper 150s to admit enough minorities?? Have you guys not heard the stories of the black males with 3.2 and 167 getting into Harvard?? We are talking about a blacks with BOTH 3.5+ and 165+. Take a peek over at the URM forum on TLS and see what you see.

[newyorker88]

"the number of black applicants with even 165+ and 3.5+ was only around 50 last cycle "

Where did you get this information...that is not accurate at all.

I attended one of the diversity summer programs that LSAC sponsors with a university to promote diversity. When I updated the program on my LSAT result one of the admission officers shared some stats with me.

How would an admissions officer know the scores of all black applicants as opposed to just the scores of students that applied to their school?