Darrow Invite Forum

[heyguys]

I used LSN to compile some stats for the Darrow over the previous three cycles. Highlights:

70% of full Darrows got into one of HYS
89% of those chose HYS

30% of full Darrows did not get into one of HYS
73% of those chose Michigan

So far, I'm thinking I agree with heyguys, even if LSN's Darrows didn't.

The only tough call would be full darrow at mich v. YLS. The nice thing about YLS is that there are no grades first semester and barely any subsequently. I think that this is something that I only came to appreciate as a 1L, seeing my buds at other law schools hammering out stuff meaninglessly based on whatever preferences their professors might have in order to get an A or whatever. Also, Yale's COAP program is...well...ridiculously awesome. And you won't have to ever worry about performing at any particularly high level in order to get a good job. Those are the perks, but you incur a lot of debt. The competition at Mich will be far more intense, but man no debt sounds really f&*&ing awesome. Ultimately, I think the YLS v. Mich comes down to a couple of questions:

1) Do you want to do academia? If so, go with Yale.
2) Is there some other specific reason that you want to go to Yale? If so, pick Yale.
3) Are you absolutely certain that you want to work as a lawyer? If not, then go Mich.

So, there are some reasons for going to YLS over the Darrow. I would mostly stress the lack of grades though--it's hard to appreciate how important that is as a 0L. But ultimately, it would have made more sense for me to pick the full Darrow had I been so offered.

As far as SLS and HLS:

HLS: I can't imagine a reason to pick HLS over Mich with full Darrow. I think that for most who make that decision, it's a prestige matter that I strongly suspect they would regret having made down the road. I mean, is the difference between the two really worth 150,000 dollars? I just can't imagine that it is. There is some risk mitigation, but HLS still has some level of competition (although greatly diminished compared to other law schools besides YLS), but probably not as much as Mich.

SLS: as a 0L, this would be a tough call. SLS has a lot of points of allure, albeit different ones from HLS: while the allure of HLS is prestige and potential to meet future world-shakers, for SLS it's the atmosphere generally, living in California, (maybe) a preference for the quarter system, etc. I think that the climate and atmosphere would weigh particularly for a 0L. That said, I would strongly suspect that if you gave a Darrow person who chose SLS the chance to choose again after understanding law school better, she would go with the Darrow.

So, ultimately, I could see a 0L pick any of the three over a Darrow; hell, as a 0L I probably would have unthinkingly taken any of the three over the Darrow. However, now that I'm a 1L and have debts and commitments, I would definitely take the Darrow no question.

[Emma.]

I used LSN to compile some stats for the Darrow over the previous three cycles. Highlights:

70% of full Darrows got into one of HYS
89% of those chose HYS

30% of full Darrows did not get into one of HYS
73% of those chose Michigan

So far, I'm thinking I agree with heyguys, even if LSN's Darrows didn't.

The only tough call would be full darrow at mich v. YLS. The nice thing about YLS is that there are no grades first semester and barely any subsequently. I think that this is something that I only came to appreciate as a 1L, seeing my buds at other law schools hammering out stuff meaninglessly based on whatever preferences their professors might have in order to get an A or whatever. Also, Yale's COAP program is...well...ridiculously awesome. And you won't have to ever worry about performing at any particularly high level in order to get a good job. Those are the perks, but you incur a lot of debt. The competition at Mich will be far more intense, but man no debt sounds really f&*&ing awesome. Ultimately, I think the YLS v. Mich comes down to a couple of questions:

1) Do you want to do academia? If so, go with Yale.
2) Is there some other specific reason that you want to go to Yale? If so, pick Yale.
3) Are you absolutely certain that you want to work as a lawyer? If not, then go Mich.

So, there are some reasons for going to YLS over the Darrow. I would mostly stress the lack of grades though--it's hard to appreciate how important that is as a 0L. But ultimately, it would have made more sense for me to pick the full Darrow had I been so offered.

As far as SLS and HLS:

HLS: I can't imagine a reason to pick HLS over Mich with full Darrow. I think that for most who make that decision, it's a prestige matter that I strongly suspect they would regret having made down the road. I mean, is the difference between the two really worth 150,000 dollars? I just can't imagine that it is. There is some risk mitigation, but HLS still has some level of competition (although greatly diminished compared to other law schools besides YLS), but probably not as much as Mich.

SLS: as a 0L, this would be a tough call. SLS has a lot of points of allure, albeit different ones from HLS: while the allure of HLS is prestige and potential to meet future world-shakers, for SLS it's the atmosphere generally, living in California, (maybe) a preference for the quarter system, etc. I think that the climate and atmosphere would weigh particularly for a 0L. That said, I would strongly suspect that if you gave a Darrow person who chose SLS the chance to choose again after understanding law school better, she would go with the Darrow.

So, ultimately, I could see a 0L pick any of the three over a Darrow; hell, as a 0L I probably would have unthinkingly taken any of the three over the Darrow. However, now that I'm a 1L and have debts and commitments, I would definitely take the Darrow no question.

Great post... Thanks! Now I just hope they like my essay.

[Emma.]

I congratulate and hate you all.

Does anyone know of someone who was invited to apply and then didn't receive at least a half Darrow?

[ankit]

I congratulate and hate you all.

Does anyone know of someone who was invited to apply and then didn't receive at least a half Darrow?

No....in fact I heard of only one applicant last year who got the invite, and didnt get the Full Darrow (got half). And that's only on TLS. LSN/LSD do not have any instances of people getting the invites and not getting a full Darrow. I think your chances are very strong....hang in there!!

[Tangerine Gleam]

I congratulate and hate you all.

Does anyone know of someone who was invited to apply and then didn't receive at least a half Darrow?

No....in fact I heard of only one applicant last year who got the invite, and didnt get the Full Darrow (got half). And that's only on TLS. LSN/LSD do not have any instances of people getting the invites and not getting a full Darrow. I think your chances are very strong....hang in there!!

That's fascinating/crazy. So the essay is essentially a stopgap to filter people who don't give a @#!& enough to apply?

The website says that, on average, every class is comprised of approximately 14 Darrow recipients. So they're either over-extending, expecting lots of HYS-ers to go elsewhere, OR TLS is basically where all of the geniuses hang out (which we already knew ), because I swear we've seen a good 10 Darrow winners so far this month (with several more on the way, perhaps, based on the fact that many seem to still be waiting).

[james18]

In response to the debate over YLS vs. Darrow:

I had the decision last year between Darrow, Hamilton, and YLS and chose the Darrow at Mich.

I won't say that turning down Yale was easy, but the final decision did not involve any real discussion of YLS. For me, it came down to the Hamilton or the Darrow - coming out with no debt was just too good to pass up.

For what it's worth, I haven't regretted the decision at all - love Michigan so far. I sometimes wonder what Columbia would have been like, but I haven't given much thought to what might have been at Yale.

[Tangerine Gleam]

Wow, what led you to pick the Darrow over the Hamilton? What a great bunch of choices.

[bottomshelf]

Lack of debt is a huge plus for me. $140,000 is a crazy amount of money to not have to borrow. Prestige, when I look at these boards, seems to be huge (and relevant to post-graduation finding a job); when I leave these boards and talk to non-lawyers (and lawyers), it doesn't seem to matter as much in the face of a massive scholarship. I know, however, that people here are pretty well-informed about the legal market while people who don't browse this (or other law-related sites) may not know much about the trouble we're in as prospective students.

Having to weigh all this has been giving me a headache.

[james18]

Mostly personal stuff. Family issues plus I'm not a big city guy. I was one of the few who actually liked Ann Arbor much more than NYC.

Still, it wasn't an easy decision, and the family circumstances ended up being a major factor.

[booby87]

.

[tinman]

I didn't apply to Michigan last year, but I was awarded the Hamilton at Columbia. I ended up choosing Yale over the Hamilton, and I think anyone who get into Yale is crazy to go to Mich or Columbia, even with the full scholarships.

As heyguys said, the no-grades-first-semester thing at Yale is amazing. I didn't appreciate it last year either. But both heyguys and I have our con law final tomorrow, and we are posting on TLS. That's how low stress it is here. I even watched a movie this morning (although I did read a con law book for fun over winter break, and I am going to meet my classmates in a half hour, so I'm not a totally slacker).

But besides Yale being a nice place to go to school, the economics (at least for most people) make going to Yale a no brainer, in my opinion, for two reasons:

1) you can get a better job from Yale more easily than anywhere else. In a bad economy, it makes even more sense to come to Yale over the Hamilton and Darrow! Unless you have money from parents or work, you will still have to pay for room in board over the three years. It adds up. I think people on the Hamilton end up with $40-60K in debt. Most Yale students end up with ~100K I think. 40K is sill a pain to pay off without a job. Going to Yale and increasing your chances of getting a good job in a bad economy is the best thing you can do for yourself, in my opinion.

2) as heyguys mentioned, the loam repayment program (LRAP) is awesome at Yale! You don't even have to have a law job to qualify. You could even, for example, teach high school civics at make 50K a Yale and you will not have to pay your loans back. As far as I know, you only qualify for LRAP at other schools if you would in law, usually in public interest law. This is a huge safety net!!

Think about the LRAP at Yale for a second. This means if you make less than 80K after graduating from Michigan with a Darrow or Yale paying full sticker, you will actually be paying more money toward your loans from Michigan!!

The Darrow or Hamilton over Yale actually makes more sense (in fact, I think it only make sense) for people that are sure they are going to get biglaw jobs from any of these schools. If you are making >150K, you will not qualify for LRAP from anywhere and it's nice to pay less loans. But I still think, in the long run, you will likely end up making more money in biglaw coming from Yale. But as I said, in the short rum (3-5 years after law school), taking the Darrow over Yale makes sense if you go into biglaw.

But are you sure you will get biglaw from Mich? Are you really sure? You know the economy tanked, right? I mean, I know you must be very highly qualified because you received the Darrow, but are you sure you will be high enough in your class at Mich to land biglaw job? I'm not sure what you need to be from Mich to land biglaw these days but I think it is close to top 25%. Yale is much more forgiving.

For what it's worth, I also would have gone to Stanford over the Hamilton (if I didn't get into Yale), but that is because they gave me good financial aid and I love California. I would have chosen the Hamilton over Harvard.

[FlightoftheEarls]

I didn't apply to Michigan last year, but I was awarded the Hamilton at Columbia. I ended up choosing Yale over the Hamilton, and I think anyone who get into Yale is crazy to go to Mich or Columbia, even with the full scholarships.

As heyguys said, the no-grades-first-semester thing at Yale is amazing. I didn't appreciate it last year either. But both heyguys and I have our con law final tomorrow, and we are posting on TLS. That's how low stress it is here. I even watched a movie this morning (although I did read a con law book for fun over winter break, and I am going to meet my classmates in a half hour, so I'm not a totally slacker).

But besides Yale being a nice place to go to school, the economics (at least for most people) make going to Yale a no brainer, in my opinion, for two reasons:

1) you can get a better job from Yale more easily than anywhere else. In a bad economy, it makes even more sense to come to Yale over the Hamilton and Darrow! Unless you have money from parents or work, you will still have to pay for room in board over the three years. It adds up. I think people on the Hamilton end up with $40-60K in debt. Most Yale students end up with ~100K I think. 40K is sill a pain to pay off without a job. Going to Yale and increasing your chances of getting a good job in a bad economy is the best thing you can do for yourself, in my opinion.

2) as heyguys mentioned, the loam repayment program (LRAP) is awesome at Yale! You don't even have to have a law job to qualify. You could even, for example, teach high school civics at make 50K a Yale and you will not have to pay your loans back. As far as I know, you only qualify for LRAP at other schools if you would in law, usually in public interest law. This is a huge safety net!!

Think about the LRAP at Yale for a second. This means if you make less than 80K after graduating from Michigan with a Darrow or Yale paying full sticker, you will actually be paying more money toward your loans from Michigan!!

The Darrow or Hamilton over Yale actually makes more sense (in fact, I think it only make sense) for people that are sure they are going to get biglaw jobs from any of these schools. If you are making >150K, you will not qualify for LRAP from anywhere and it's nice to pay less loans. But I still think, in the long run, you will likely end up making more money in biglaw coming from Yale. But as I said, in the short rum (3-5 years after law school), taking the Darrow over Yale makes sense if you go into biglaw.

But are you sure you will get biglaw from Mich? Are you really sure? You know the economy tanked, right? I mean, I know you must be very highly qualified because you received the Darrow, but are you sure you will be high enough in your class at Mich to land biglaw job? I'm not sure what you need to be from Mich to land biglaw these days but I think it is close to top 25%. Yale is much more forgiving.

For what it's worth, I also would have gone to Stanford over the Hamilton (if I didn't get into Yale), but that is because they gave me good financial aid and I love California. I would have chosen the Hamilton over Harvard.

The figure landing biglaw offers this year, while not confirmed yet, is rumored to have been significantly better than this. Of course, there's no argument that Yale will not always place better into biglaw, but I'm fairly confident you just pulled this 25% figure completely out of the air. Speaking with several 2Ls/3Ls it seems like we've dipped a little, but the majority of people who wanted biglaw ended up still landing a gig, although some were forced to settle on secondary markets. While some were shut out, the consensus I've gathered seems to suggest that people ended up ultimately doing a little better than all the panic made it initially seem.

[musketeerlady]

Mostly personal stuff. Family issues plus I'm not a big city guy. I was one of the few who actually liked Ann Arbor much more than NYC.

Still, it wasn't an easy decision, and the family circumstances ended up being a major factor.

Hey James18 - if you don't mind, could you give us a range of debt that you (or any other Darrow recipient you know) still need to take on top of the Darrow? It's full tuition for 3 years, plus 1L stipend, but the cost of living, books and other misc costs must still be around $15K+ a year?

Thanks in advance.

[booby87]

.

[james18]

It's likely going to come out to a little less than that per year, but I'll be working for a firm my 1L summer (as well my 2L summer hopefully!) and making some money, so I'm hoping to only have to take out loans for this one year. The 1L summer stipend also makes things easier. AA isn't very expensive, and I live pretty comfortably without spending too much.

Overall, I'm expecting to come out with about 15k in debt.

[Alexandria]

The figure landing biglaw offers this year, while not confirmed yet, is rumored to have been significantly better than this. Of course, there's no argument that Yale will not always place better into biglaw, but I'm fairly confident you just pulled this 25% figure completely out of the air. Speaking with several 2Ls/3Ls it seems like we've dipped a little, but the majority of people who wanted biglaw ended up still landing a gig, although some were forced to settle on secondary markets. While some were shut out, the consensus I've gathered seems to suggest that people ended up ultimately doing a little better than all the panic made it initially seem.

Uh yeah, tinman def pulled the 25% out of his a$$.

[heyguys]

I hate to down on a classmate, but I think that anyone who turns down a Hamilton is insane.

Edit: unless you have an advanced degree and know that you want academia

[aussie3b]

I'm glad this thread has been revived. It is especially helpful to get some perspective from others who had these decisions to make last year.

[tamlyric]

I'm glad this thread has been revived. It is especially helpful to get some perspective from others who had these decisions to make last year.

+1

[ndnlawdc]

That said, I would strongly suspect that if you gave a Darrow person who chose SLS the chance to choose again after understanding law school better, she would go with the Darrow.

FWIW, I chose SLS over the Darrow and don't regret it -- and I LOVED Michigan. Sometimes when I sit in my tiny and really expensive apartment, I wish I could live in Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor also (probably surprisingly) has more going on than Palo Alto. I tell people I'm married to Stanford, but I have an ongoing emotional affair with Michigan.

But in terms of schools, though SLS and Michigan are similar in a lot of respects, I get the sense that my career options in this market are substantially better coming from SLS. For the risk-averse, a transcript full of Ps at SLS will probably get you farther than a Michigan transcript with mediocre grades. I also think that those doing well at SLS, but who aren't at the tippy top of their class (say top third, but not top 10%), are probably doing better than similarly situated Michigan students.

Career options for my wife was also a concern. I'm absolutely sure the job she has in Palo Alto is way better than the job she would have had at Michigan, and she wouldn't have gotten a job within a week like she did here.

The only thing that would have made a difference is financial aid. SLS also has really generous financial aid. I'm certainly going to come out of SLS with more debt than I would have at Michigan, but not by a large amount. I imagine my decision might have been different if I was taking out loans for 100% of my SLS education.

[tinman]

I didn't apply to Michigan last year, but I was awarded the Hamilton at Columbia. I ended up choosing Yale over the Hamilton, and I think anyone who get into Yale is crazy to go to Mich or Columbia, even with the full scholarships.

As heyguys said, the no-grades-first-semester thing at Yale is amazing. I didn't appreciate it last year either. But both heyguys and I have our con law final tomorrow, and we are posting on TLS. That's how low stress it is here. I even watched a movie this morning (although I did read a con law book for fun over winter break, and I am going to meet my classmates in a half hour, so I'm not a totally slacker).

But besides Yale being a nice place to go to school, the economics (at least for most people) make going to Yale a no brainer, in my opinion, for two reasons:

1) you can get a better job from Yale more easily than anywhere else. In a bad economy, it makes even more sense to come to Yale over the Hamilton and Darrow! Unless you have money from parents or work, you will still have to pay for room in board over the three years. It adds up. I think people on the Hamilton end up with $40-60K in debt. Most Yale students end up with ~100K I think. 40K is sill a pain to pay off without a job. Going to Yale and increasing your chances of getting a good job in a bad economy is the best thing you can do for yourself, in my opinion.

2) as heyguys mentioned, the loam repayment program (LRAP) is awesome at Yale! You don't even have to have a law job to qualify. You could even, for example, teach high school civics at make 50K a Yale and you will not have to pay your loans back. As far as I know, you only qualify for LRAP at other schools if you would in law, usually in public interest law. This is a huge safety net!!

Think about the LRAP at Yale for a second. This means if you make less than 80K after graduating from Michigan with a Darrow or Yale paying full sticker, you will actually be paying more money toward your loans from Michigan!!

The Darrow or Hamilton over Yale actually makes more sense (in fact, I think it only make sense) for people that are sure they are going to get biglaw jobs from any of these schools. If you are making >150K, you will not qualify for LRAP from anywhere and it's nice to pay less loans. But I still think, in the long run, you will likely end up making more money in biglaw coming from Yale. But as I said, in the short rum (3-5 years after law school), taking the Darrow over Yale makes sense if you go into biglaw.

But are you sure you will get biglaw from Mich? Are you really sure? You know the economy tanked, right? I mean, I know you must be very highly qualified because you received the Darrow, but are you sure you will be high enough in your class at Mich to land biglaw job? I'm not sure what you need to be from Mich to land biglaw these days but I think it is close to top 25%. Yale is much more forgiving.

For what it's worth, I also would have gone to Stanford over the Hamilton (if I didn't get into Yale), but that is because they gave me good financial aid and I love California. I would have chosen the Hamilton over Harvard.

The figure landing biglaw offers this year, while not confirmed yet, is rumored to have been significantly better than this. Of course, there's no argument that Yale will not always place better into biglaw, but I'm fairly confident you just pulled this 25% figure completely out of the air. Speaking with several 2Ls/3Ls it seems like we've dipped a little, but the majority of people who wanted biglaw ended up still landing a gig, although some were forced to settle on secondary markets. While some were shut out, the consensus I've gathered seems to suggest that people ended up ultimately doing a little better than all the panic made it initially seem.

OK. fair enough. The 25% figure was out of the air (my a$$ as you fellow TLSer said), and I am glad it is higher for UMich during this bad times.

And as I said, I think for people going into BigLaw the Darrow makes more sense than going to Yale in the short term. Perhaps in long-term earnings in BigLaw, it also makes more sense to choose the Darrow, but I am skeptical. But I don't think BigLaw is assured for everyone. I know some extremely bright 3Ls here at Yale that were no-offered from there 2L-summer firms. This worries me. The superstars at every top school will always be fine, but I don't think all the people who are superstars coming in are superstars going out.

But for public interest work, I think it makes more sense to go to Yale because of the LRAP program.

And for supercompetitive things like some clerkships and some academic jobs, Yale seems to provide a huge advantage.

I think Yale makes more sense for people who are risk-adverse. Yes, you will likely take on more loans regardless of your financial situation, but you have a better chance of getting a BigLaw job and a better safety net if you decide not to take a BigLaw job and work as a PI lawyer or high school librarian.

From Yale, you ONLY pay back your loans if you make a high salary. You can think of your loan repayments as an odd sort of social insurance that you agree to pay later if you take a BigLaw job, but which will pay your loans if you don't. It's basically like social welfare for law students.

[tinman]

That said, I would strongly suspect that if you gave a Darrow person who chose SLS the chance to choose again after understanding law school better, she would go with the Darrow.

FWIW, I chose SLS over the Darrow and don't regret it -- and I LOVED Michigan. Sometimes when I sit in my tiny and really expensive apartment, I wish I could live in Ann Arbor. Ann Arbor also (probably surprisingly) has more going on than Palo Alto. I tell people I'm married to Stanford, but I have an ongoing emotional affair with Michigan.

But in terms of schools, though SLS and Michigan are similar in a lot of respects, I get the sense that my career options in this market are substantially better coming from SLS. For the risk-averse, a transcript full of Ps at SLS will probably get you farther than a Michigan transcript with mediocre grades. I also think that those doing well at SLS, but who aren't at the tippy top of their class (say top third, but not top 10%), are probably doing better than similarly situated Michigan students.

Career options for my wife was also a concern. I'm absolutely sure the job she has in Palo Alto is way better than the job she would have had at Michigan, and she wouldn't have gotten a job within a week like she did here.

The only thing that would have made a difference is financial aid. SLS also has really generous financial aid. I'm certainly going to come out of SLS with more debt than I would have at Michigan, but not by a large amount. I imagine my decision might have been different if I was taking out loans for 100% of my SLS education.

I would have taking SLS over the Darrow too (and over the Hamilton), but I also got great financial aid from Stanford. Standard and Yale are very generous, so in the end the difference between them at the full scholarships may not be that much money. But I don't think SLS's LRAP programs is as generous as YLS's. To me, that is a huge factor that many people do not appreciate.

Who we really would want to survey would be the people 10 years out who either took the Darrow or Hamilton or decided on SLS or YLS. Because my suspicion is that a lot of 0-3Ls from YLS who feel like 100K is too much of a burden are, 10 years later, 1) so rich that they laugh that they ever worried about student loans or 2) are thankful for the LRAP program because it meant they didn't have to pay any of their loans back despite taking a lot of loans and a low paying job.

[ankit]

Has anyone with a Darrow offer received physical conformation, like a letter or email? I was in the first batch of offers and I haven't gotten anything yet. Are we supposed to get a letter via snail mail? (I kinda blacked out the convo a little bit..)

I was in the first batch and haven't received anything as yet, but I am sure we're supposed to get something via snail mail. I am based abroad though, so mine's likely to take significantly longer than yours to arrive (unless they use a courier service).

[ankit]

I see that most of these hypotheticals involve a choice between HYS and the Darrow, or the Hamilton and the Darrow.

If we move past those, are there any reasons (non-personal of course) that would justify choosing NYU, Chicago or Berkeley over the Darrow?

I know that some very specific and specialised career aspirations could drive the choice. But if one's interest is in generic Big Law/Academia/PI , I am wondering if it ever makes sense to choose one of those schools (at sticker) over the Darrow?

[tinman]

I see that most of these hypotheticals involve a choice between HYS and the Darrow, or the Hamilton and the Darrow.

If we move past those, are there any reasons (non-personal of course) that would justify choosing NYU, Chicago or Berkeley over the Darrow?

I know that some very specific and specialised career aspirations could drive the choice. But if one's interest is in generic Big Law/Academia/PI , I am wondering if it ever makes sense to choose one of those schools (at sticker) over the Darrow?

I personally think it would be crazy it to take any of these schools at sticker vs. the Darrow. But I think if you are smart enough to get a Darrow, you earn the right to make a bad decisions. Ultimately, it is you who will have to live with your decisions (and the debt).

Also, if you or your parents are so rich that the money doesn't matter, I might say Berkeley because the grading is more illusory and the weather is better.

I think the stereotype is that NYU might be better (than Mich) for public interest and Chicago might be better for clerkships and academia, but I think the differences are small enough that it's not worth forgoing a full scholarship. (And unlike Yale, I don't think these other schools have as forgiving LRAP programs, so the different in debt could seriously change your life).