What LSAT will I need for money Forum

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mintless

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What LSAT will I need for money

Post by mintless » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:41 am

I am assembling a list of schools to apply to, and emphasizing schools that are in regions I have ties to/am ok living in, are relatively generous with their funding (although not all of the listed schools are!), and have a decent enough rank that I can feel some confidence about the education I would receive. I am not looking for biglaw or huge mobility; part of the draw for me at this point is the idea of attending a school and knowing the region I need to network in/will probably live in. Below I have listed both my stats/application factors and then the schools I am interested in thus far. My question is, what LSAT score will I need to go with what I have thus far in order to get significant money or even a full ride at these schools?

UG GPA: 3.56

Grade trend: Massively back-loaded with stronger grades after rough first year

Graduate education: In two more years, I will have completed both an MA and PhD in Communication (rhetorical and media studies concentrations)

Scholarly accomplishments/activities: One peer-reviewed academic journal article in highly ranked journal in the field with strong chance of 1-3 more before graduating, served for multiple years as an editor at a graduate student run journal, experience as teaching and research assistant as well as one year as a full-time lecturer in my field, academic awards (two top four paper panel placements at national conferences, top graduate student paper award at another national conference), competitive dissertation proposal development fellowship from my college

Life story/adversity/inspiration fodder for personal statement: Queer preacher's son from oppressive, small town in the deep south

Schools:
Iowa
Indiana-Bloomington
Washington University
Ohio State
Arizona State
Boston University
Utah
North Carolina
Vanderbilt
Wisconsin
Minnesota (resident)

Took an LSAT practice test cold and got a 162.

I think this is all the relevant info, but if I should provide any more I am happy to!

TTTTorbust

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by TTTTorbust » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:09 am

You can run the numbers on LSN and see where similar applicants got money, but look at the 75th LSAT percentiles for each of these schools as a general guide for the number to be above. 162 makes you competitive at many of these schools, upper 160s will put you in a solid spot for any of them. You shouldn't count out the T-14. Your GPA isn't incredible, but it by no means precludes you from money at top schools (Aside from HYS, and even then you might get some interest at H given your publishing history and story), especially if coupled with an LSAT score in the 170s. You should at least add Michigan and peer schools given your B1G bias. Not sure how you feel about Chicago, but Northwestern might be a good fit as well. With Vandy, is there any reason not to add Duke or Virginia? I had thought maybe you just didn't want to be back in the south, but neither is too far nor to different from Vanderbilt/UNC.

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cavalier1138

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:29 am

Just to sate my curiosity: Why didn't you go to law school after applying ten years ago?

And you mentioned not wanting to do biglaw, but what are your career goals?

mintless

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by mintless » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:31 am

Sooo...

I was young and vaguely interested in law school, but I was being aggressively pushed toward that path by people at my UG institution. It was a small, private Christian school and they awarded me a full ride to Pepperdine because it was a Christian school and they had ties. It was during a time in my life when I was leaving religion, coming out of the closet, but had not fully done either yet. As I said, I was not uninterested in law, but it was something I didn't have the clearest vision of in terms of what a career might look like and its level of difficulty was intimidatingly drilled into me. All of this caused me to move away from the idea and toward grad school. I (not all that correctly!) felt like I had a stronger sense of both what grad school would be like and what an academic career looked like. I was also drawn to critical theory for reasons informed by my experiences at the time.

Now, however, I am weary and wary of the manufactured scarcity of academia that makes employment in fields like mine incredibly difficult and sends people all around the country for bullshit term positions off the tenure track only to have to move and do it again after a couple years. The pandemic has intensified all of this. I've stayed in touch with close friends who went to law school and have developed a clearer view of what a legal career could be. Granted, this vision is not fully clear yet. I have not fully thrown myself into research mode for this possible career move yet because the idea is still fairly new and I am beginning my dissertation, which will take at least one year, but likely two. So, I've got time to work this out and do research.

It is more accurate to say I am not biglaw-or-bust. I primarily want to finally lay down some roots somewhere and stop moving around the country (I've gone Texas-Colorado-Indiana-Virginia-Minnesota thus far and academia doesn't provide any assurances that the list won't just go on and on). I know I have an intellectual disposition toward reading, writing, research, etc., so I know I would want to practice at the appellate level. My interests are in the cluster of areas of the law that fall under the, as I understand it, somewhat manufactured umbrella of media law. So, I'm interested in first amendment law, entertainment law, intellectual property law, internet/data/computer/cyberlaw, and any other areas that can address concerns/issues in the world of media more broadly. That is why UNC is on my list, despite not being a very generous school in terms of aid, they do have a strong concentration in this area. The other southern school on my list, Vanderbilt, is there because I love Nashville and have ties there. I will definitely check out the other schools suggested here thus far though, and thank you for highlighting them!

crazywafflez

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by crazywafflez » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:02 pm

Hey, interesting post. I'll try and give my two cents as best I can; feel free to disregard it and there are other folks who are truly pros on here.
1) Your goals: Appeals. This won't happen from most of your schools (or even most of the T14). The job that can more routinely see that kind of stuff without being tippy-top is working as a state AG. You can do this from any of these schools but you'll need to network and some states are more competitive than others. From these schools though, and truthfully, even T14 types, you won't be doing appeals level work. You might get a project once in awhile, but it won't be your norm. I don't think you said it was the only work you were interested in, but just be warned that it isn't really something most folks do, especially right off the bat.
2) Schools:
Iowa
Indiana-Bloomington
Washington University
Ohio State
Arizona State
Boston University
Utah
North Carolina
Vanderbilt
Wisconsin
Minnesota (resident)

It is fine to take a regional approach and go on full scholarship- I'd just warn you that you really ought to know what region- if you are truly comfortable with any of these states more power to ya.
If you've got ASU you might as well add U of A, they are peers in the state (and don't place outside of it except to NM and West TX and some pull to Utah if you are Mormon).
If you are applying to BU apply to BC, again, peer schools.
UNC? Add Wake- effectively peers (I don't care for WS, so I can understand not adding it).
The rest of your list looks fine.
These schools all require lower 160 LSAT scores- since you want a scholarship (and I think it is always a good idea to go to a T1 school for free) you'll need around 164-168 to get good packages from most of these schools. Aside from Vandy and WashU, at these two you'll need something akin to a 169-171 (I'm guessing, and you may need higher LSAT scores as your GPA, while not low, is a bit on the lower side).
For Utah type schools with a 3.5-3.6 I'm guessing you'll need a 162 for entrance, 164ish for a good scholly.
For BU/BC type, 164 for entrance with a 167-69 for good packages.
The ranks really stop mattering after around 20 or so- UNC may be marginally better than UTk, but if you want to be in Nashville, Chattanooga, or Knoxville it is a substantially better choice.
There won't be an educational difference from Vanderbilt to U of Oregon to Ole Miss, the content is all the same; your peers will be different, but most professors at all of these places are type notch (pedigrees at least).
Just aim to get your LSAT as high as possible- even if you can get a fullride to ASU with a 165 it doesn't hurt to get a 170.
Best of luck.

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cavalier1138

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:46 am

I agree with wafflez that you should not be applying to any of these schools with the anticipation of appellate work.

More importantly, it sounds like you aren't interested in practicing law so much as you're interested in having a backup plan if you fail to secure the career in academia you actually want. That's not a good reason to go to law school. You need to actually want a career in law.

Your academic background also seems to be causing you to approach the law school admissions process from the wrong angle. "Specialty" programs at law schools are meaningless. This isn't like a doctorate; every school will offer you the chance to study media law. A T13 student who took zero classes in anything related to media law has a better shot at working for the FCC, the Post, top non-profits, etc. than a UNC graduate who spent all of 2L and 3L taking "specialized" classes.

TTTTorbust

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by TTTTorbust » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:29 am

To crystalize what cavalier said in his last response, the specialty programs you see at some of these schools are really just marketing schemes to attract applicants who don't know any better and should largely be ignored in your search, should you continue. The local T2/3 school near me advertises their third ranked Supreme Court litigation seminar or some such. Take a guess at how many graduates have clerked for SCOTUS. Probably a few on the state supreme court, but I doubt that's what most envision when they see the advertisements.

nixy

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by nixy » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:01 am

Just to throw a slightly different perspective in, if by “appellate” you’re willing to include criminal work rather than, say, working on something like the cheerleader free speech case that just came down, you can do that kind of appellate work from the kind of schools you describe, either in a state AG’s office (in some states, they have a dedicated appellate unit) or as a PD of some variety.

I realize this may not fit as well with your preferred practice areas, but I will also note that practicing in a given area is actually very different from studying it as an academic field. In my own experience, the best example of this was employment discrimination - as an academic field it’s interesting because you’re reading only the cases that changed the law (often with horrible employers and sympathetic employees). In practice, it often depends on volume and churning cases, and involves dealing with a lot of disgruntled employees who actually probably weren’t really discriminated against but maybe they were and they definitely want to screw their employers (obviously there will be meritorious cases because lots of employers suck, but you will have to do a lot of work to get to them). You maybe want to think about whether the content matter (media etc) is more important to you, or whether the work conditions (writing and research heavy) are more important to you, if both doesn’t work out.

I know a number of former academics who went into law and pivoting to law - as a really clear path to a specific job - is definitely defensible. It’s hard to generalize about experience or outcome, it varies a lot by the person. But the posters above are correct that specialization isn’t a thing in law the way that it is in academia. Because of accreditation and bar passage, most schools offer all the same kind of stuff, and generic pedigree (and your performance/experience overall) is more important than specialist programs.

So for instance, if you look at what UNC touts as its media law concentration, look at the actual courses/clinics listed, then look at your average top ranked schools and see how many of those courses actually exists at the other schools - you will most likely be able to recreate that concentration at any number of schools that just don’t try to sell themselves as having a media law concentration. There’s also a famous argument that there’s no “law of the horse” - there’s contract law or property law or criminal law, and they can all be relevant to someone who owns a lot of horses, without that person having to get a background in “horse law.” So constitutional law (1A) and administrative law and copyright law and such will all inform media law, without necessarily needing to take a lot of classes that are labeled media law. Even specialized clinics aren’t that significant because you can often find a relevant employer to volunteer for outside of the clinic structure. It’s fine to consider these things if all else is equal, but overall employment statistics and funding are more important to weigh first.

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hookem7

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by hookem7 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:48 am

If you took the LSAT cold and got a 162, you have the aptitude to reach 170+ with studying/taking LSAT classes. Don't focus on, well if I get a 167 that's money from Iowa, UNC, etc. I say this often, but studying for the LSAT has a very high ROI. From personal experience, I only wanted a high enough score to get into Texas and I did just that. But a good friend got the same score, knew he could do better, retook and got into all three of HYS (admittedly, he had other things going for him that I didn't like a near-perfect GPA). As another example, a well known, major champion golfer has said that when he first made it to the PGA Tour, his goal was simply to make the cut (i.e. survive to the weekend in the top 60-70). And he often did just that but little more. When he refined his goal as making Top 10s, he did just that but again little more. It was only when he set his goal was to win that he began actually winning.

All the above goes to say, get the highest score you can and then apply broadly and see where the chips fall. Don't sell yourself short by looking at simply what will get you in with money at regional schools. A 3.56 only shuts you out of a very small number of schools.

The posters above make good points regarding "specialties" or certain programs offered by schools. In reality, all of these specialties are just extensions of the basic 1L courses taught at every school, i.e. wills and estates or oil and gas are really just advanced Property classes. In your case, Media law is just going to be an extension of Con Law where you dive deeper into First Amendment cases and the like. You can learn the necessary skills at any reputable school. The question is what schools will get your hired in positions in those fields as an attorney, and the answer is the better the school is the better your chances.

Finally, take some time to determine if this is the career move you want to make. I get that the academia field you are currently pursuing seems frustrating to break into. But you should only pivot to law if you really want to be a lawyer because, at the end of the day, a JD is a professional program that qualifies you to do exactly that.

mintless

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Re: What LSAT will I need for money

Post by mintless » Sun Jun 27, 2021 6:31 am

Thank all of you for the information and advice here! You have given me a lot to think about.

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