Considering Law as Second Career Forum

[scigradstudent]

I am mid-30s, have an M.S. in Mathematics and a Ph.D. in a STEM (science) field. I currently work as a research assistant in that field. Undergrad GPA was 4.0; graduate a bit lower (would estimate ~3.85). I am considering a second career in law.

1) How is the job market for JDs right now compared with a few years ago? Is this a realistic career move for someone with my background?

2) Is there a particular practice area that might be a better fit/easier transition for someone with my background?

3) My preliminary interest is in criminal law; perhaps I would pursue a PD position. I live in a western US state, have a house and do not want to relocate. Is this a realistic possibility?

4) I would like to avoid taking on excessive debt to finance the JD, particular if my career prospects are uncertain. Would attending a part time, evening, or online program limit my opportunities? Is there a program that you recommend? What are my admissions prospects?

5) What kind of financial aid could someone with my background expect? (No LSAT score yet.)

I hope my questions weren't too vague and thank you for any advice!

[CanadianWolf]

Without an actual LSAT score it is difficult to address possibility of merit scholarship money offers. Nevertheless, with a 4.0 undergraduate GPA, a score in the high 160s (or above, of course) should yield very generous scholarship offers if you apply to the appropriate law schools.

Additionally, a PhD in a STEM field should be very attractive to law schools and future employers as much activity in M&A (mergers & acquisitions) involves STEM entities and large law firms seek those with technical or life sciences backgrounds. (Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati is an example of a high paying biglaw firm with Western US offices that would likely find your educational background & work experience attractive. Markets such as San Francisco, Palo Alto, Silicon Valley & Seattle should welcome your resume.

Why PD ?

Have you considered researching pre-law educational requirements for qualifying as a Patent Attorney ?

Or practicing in IP (intellectual property) ?

https://www.law.uw.edu/academics/llm/ip/curriculum

[scigradstudent]

As far as your recommendations, I should clarify that I have extensive training and experience in mathematics and data analysis, but my Ph.D. is in a geoscience field. I do not have an extensive background in biology or chemistry. So I didn't see an immediate application to IP law. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

As far as PD, maybe I'm being absurdly idealistic but I'm burnt out on my career and interested in moving into public service in some capacity. This is a preference but not an absolute requirement.

Thanks again!

[ESQ92]

I'm burnt out on my career and interested in moving into public service in some capacity.

If you're burnt out, I think being a PD ain't it. Law in general is really a grind (in my opinion), and my friends who are PD's seem to have it just as bad as everyone else. Being a PD is a labor of love - it's a vocation.
Sounds like you want to work more in public interest, which tends to be more relaxed on hours but usually pays horribly.

[scigradstudent]

I should clarify a little. I'm not averse to hard work, but I want to move into a career where I feel like what I'm doing matters. My research in my current field is so abstruse that ~5 people in the world are interested (if that) and it's unclear if there are any practical applications. That's the part that is so demotivating for me.

By "pays horribly," what are we talking here? I make a decent high/mid 5-figure salary now.

[nixy]

I think it’s still common for PDs to start in the $50k range, though it can vary, especially depending on local COL.

The key to getting a PD job is demonstrated commitment and (in law school) experience, more so than law school pedigree (though that usually never hurts). It’s absolutely an accessible job, but it’s not guaranteed. Basically you want to do all the internships/criminal law stuff you can, particularly in the summer after your 2L year, when in many jurisdictions you can represent defendants in court. Your biggest challenge will be convincing employers that you really want to leave science and become a PD, so whatever you can do to make this clear on your resume will help. (I’m not saying you have to go volunteer etc now, you can establish this through law school experience, although if there are any kind of volunteer opportunities working with the indigent, that would probably look good. Just avoid stuff that leans at all toward criminal prosecution.)

You also probably don’t have to relocate if you want to be a PD in the area where you’re currently living - you have an excellent UGPA, if you get a decent LSAT, a great outcome would be to go to the best local school with a free ride (and that’s probably attainable, as long as your western state isn’t California, although Stanford and Berkeley aren’t exactly local schools).

[scigradstudent]

Thank you. I suppose I can reveal that my "western state" is CO.

[nixy]

I have a slight personal preference for CU, but DU is perfectly fine as well - there are lots of alums from both schools all throughout the state. Probably the main objective difference is that CU has historically had higher bar passage rates (although I think DU has improved theirs and I haven’t compared them for a while). Mind you, that’s really about the standardized test score abilities of people accepted to each school, not because DU teaches the law worse than CU or anything - historically CU students have higher stats and that translates to doing better on standardized tests. (Also CU doesn’t have a part time program and DU does, which tends to drag bar passage rates down just because part-time students don’t always have a lot of time to devote to bar study.) I wouldn’t put a lot of weight on bar passage, it’s just one difference.

Otherwise the biggest difference is location - Denver vs Boulder. That said, plenty of people from Denver commute to CU, and plenty of students from CU do externships etc in Denver.

(I’d say there are some cultural differences, but those are really subjective and not really worth worrying about unless everything else, including cost, is equal.)

Your admissions prospects can’t be determined until you have a LSAT score, but are probably good. LSAT and UGPA are the most important things in determining your options. Get as high an LSAT as you can and if it’s over their 75th percentiles you should get good money from both CO schools. If you can swing it, I think attending full time and getting it over with is better than going part-time/in the evening - I think too it’s usually more compatible with doing internships and getting relevant experience. But I realize that doesn’t always work for everyone.

Don’t look for online programs. The majority aren’t ABA accredited and the ones that are, are most suitable for a very small subset of people who will benefit in their current jobs from having a JD, but aren’t really looking to change careers to a traditional legal practice job.

[CanadianWolf]

The University of Colorado School of Law in Boulder may be a great option for you to consider. The Colorado public defenders office is a well funded state-wide PD. But, if expecting satisfaction from your work as a PD, I think that you are a bit overly idealistic. Public Defenders experience a very high degree of job dissatisfaction due to frustration with court rulings & due to representing repeat (allegedly, of course) offenders. Lots of heavy alcohol intake & substance abuse.

Another option would be to pursue Water Rights law & Mineral Rights law. CU-Boulder School of Law is great for this. Used to--and may still--run a joint program with the University of Alberta School of Law which may lead to being awarded both US & Canadian law degrees if it is a 4 year (instead of the usual 3 years) dual degree program. Check out the regional law firm of Holland & Hart. Starting salary should be about $135,000- $160,000 plus annual bonus.

[scigradstudent]

Many thought-provoking ideas have been presented here.

Is it worth considering something like environmental law?

[nixy]

Not sure a big firm will be very satisfactory if the OP is inclined towards public interest. And neither CU nor DU have spectacular biglaw placement, in part because Denver/Colorado generally is a small market with limited biglaw presence (I'm counting Holland & Hart as biglaw in terms of hiring, though it's regional).

I think both CU and DU are relatively well placed to do environmental law, though, in part because mineral and water stuff is so important in the west. I would also think your background could be helpful. I don't think doing the 4 year program with Alberta is especially compelling unless you have a reason to think a Canadian law degree would be useful, though.

[cavalier1138]

The Colorado public defenders office is a well funded state-wide PD.

I just wanted to highlight this point: A lot of people want to work for the Colorado PD office. I know a number of people at T13 schools who were competing for spots there, so just bear in mind that it's one of the harder offices to get.

[CanadianWolf]

Many thought-provoking ideas have been presented here.

Is it worth considering something like environmental law?

https://www.colorado.edu/law/academics/

https://www.colorado.edu/law/tab-dual-d ... aculty-law

The University of Colorado School of Law has an Environmental Law Journal

[nixy]

The University of Colorado School of Law has an Environmental Law Journal

This is not a good reason to pick a school, though.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: Consider the options & opportunities available to you. Whether or not a dual degree or participation on a particular journal is of interest to you & will further your interests depends upon your background & upon your career objectives.

[Hakki]

OP: Consider the options & opportunities available to you. Whether or not a dual degree or participation on a particular journal is of interest to you & will further your interests depends upon your background & upon your career objectives.

What you say isn't wrong, OP should pick as he pleases, but you're sort of concealing the fact that a dual degree or interest in a particular journal has little to no bearing on finding employment in that field.

I have not heard of any law student ever who picked a law school based on the existence of an Environmental Law Journal. I have heard of many (i.e., almost all) people who pick a law school based on employment prospects in their field of choice. That journal won't contribute anything to OP's job search.

[nixy]

I agree. And the reason I say specifically not to pick a school based on an environmental law journal is that I don't think the experience of being on a journal creates meaningful relationships with the authors who publish in that journal; if you want to write a note on environmental law, you can do that in a regular law review; and cite checking or proofreading some subset of articles in that journal isn't going to give you any valuable insight into environmental law. Even if you end up on the e-board in a position that reviews submissions, you will just read a lot of bad writing about the subject and there are better uses of your time, both for learning about environmental law and for signaling your interest in the field. (And to be blunt, there are law journal rankings and the Colorado environmental law journal is not highly ranked. Though I wouldn't go to Harvard for the #1 ranked Harvard environmental law journal, either - I'd go to Harvard for the employment opportunities it offers.)

Don't get me wrong, if you do end up going to CU then doing the environmental law journal is fine, although honestly I think the signaling value of law review is stronger. But it's absolutely not a reason to pick a school, unless maybe literally everything else is equal (it rarely is).

[CanadianWolf]

I never advised OP or anyone else to pick a law school based on the opportunity to participate on a secondary specialty journal. This was a misunderstanding advanced by another poster.

Nevertheless, OP should be aware of options & opportunities available at his state flagship law school based on his stated curiosity about / interest in environmental law.

P.S. To the poster who claims that participation on an environmental law journal won't help in one's job search, it may or may not. Based on my knowledge & the shared experience of others, it has.

[dabigchina]

As far as your recommendations, I should clarify that I have extensive training and experience in mathematics and data analysis, but my Ph.D. is in a geoscience field. I do not have an extensive background in biology or chemistry. So I didn't see an immediate application to IP law. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

As far as PD, maybe I'm being absurdly idealistic but I'm burnt out on my career and interested in moving into public service in some capacity. This is a preference but not an absolute requirement.

Thanks again!

This might just be my ignorance of the hiring market for someone with your background, but think long and hard about the opportunity cost of spending 3 years making 0 dollars in law school (+tuition, if applicable) vs just finding a job outside of academia. You might need to move to find a better job, but quite frankly, you might need to move outside of CO if you want to make a decent living in the law as well.

[nixy]

As far as your recommendations, I should clarify that I have extensive training and experience in mathematics and data analysis, but my Ph.D. is in a geoscience field. I do not have an extensive background in biology or chemistry. So I didn't see an immediate application to IP law. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

As far as PD, maybe I'm being absurdly idealistic but I'm burnt out on my career and interested in moving into public service in some capacity. This is a preference but not an absolute requirement.

Thanks again!

This might just be my ignorance of the hiring market for someone with your background, but think long and hard about the opportunity cost of spending 3 years making 0 dollars in law school (+tuition, if applicable) vs just finding a job outside of academia. You might need to move to find a better job, but quite frankly, you might need to move outside of CO if you want to make a decent living in the law as well.

I mean that's really dependent on what you mean by decent living. I don't think they would need to move outside of CO.

[ALCA1920]

Those are great academic achievements. A good lsat score (160+ in your case) can get you a full-tuition scholarship at many schools.

I wouldn’t worry about the job market if I were you. You seem like an intelligent and capable person, and every PD office would feel lucky to have you.

Avoid the unranked, lowest ranked, and online/unaccredited schools. Just do your best in LS- take plenty of clinics and trial classes, intern at a local PD office, network, and you’ll be a defense attorney when you graduate.

[unknown94]

I'm burnt out on my career and interested in moving into public service in some capacity.

If you're burnt out, I think being a PD ain't it. Law in general is really a grind (in my opinion), and my friends who are PD's seem to have it just as bad as everyone else. Being a PD is a labor of love - it's a vocation.
Sounds like you want to work more in public interest, which tends to be more relaxed on hours but usually pays horribly.

This ^ 100%. I often don't understand the motivations certain STEM grad students or STEM career individuals have in going into law. I've worked in both and completed law school a few years ago. While there are unfortunate aspects of both jobs, uprooting your entire life for (and this cannot be exaggerated enough) a 100% different everything job seems like such an extreme decision. Legal employment is more volatile than most STEM jobs. Have you considered moving companies/labs to find projects that are more fulfilling?

[unknown94]

Without an actual LSAT score it is difficult to address possibility of merit scholarship money offers. Nevertheless, with a 4.0 undergraduate GPA, a score in the high 160s (or above, of course) should yield very generous scholarship offers if you apply to the appropriate law schools.

Additionally, a PhD in a STEM field should be very attractive to law schools and future employers as much activity in M&A (mergers & acquisitions) involves STEM entities and large law firms seek those with technical or life sciences backgrounds. (Wilson, Sonsini, Goodrich & Rosati is an example of a high paying biglaw firm with Western US offices that would likely find your educational background & work experience attractive. Markets such as San Francisco, Palo Alto, Silicon Valley & Seattle should welcome your resume.

Why PD ?

Have you considered researching pre-law educational requirements for qualifying as a Patent Attorney ?

Or practicing in IP (intellectual property) ?

https://www.law.uw.edu/academics/llm/ip/curriculum

^^I don't agree with much of the above statement. There is discrete and limited demand for the type of lawyer you have generalized. The actual demand is not commensurate with the impressions non STEM law students believe it is.