Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust. Forum
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Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Title says it all. These are my two main options. I want to do transactional work, ideally winding up in a tax group at a V10.
I understand that both schools place better in NYC, but another factor that matters to me is the possibility of lateraling to a West Coast (Bay Area/SV) firm after 4/5 years. The capacity for moving West is less important to me than the overall possibility of entering Biglaw.
I'd really appreciate any thoughts.
I understand that both schools place better in NYC, but another factor that matters to me is the possibility of lateraling to a West Coast (Bay Area/SV) firm after 4/5 years. The capacity for moving West is less important to me than the overall possibility of entering Biglaw.
I'd really appreciate any thoughts.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Hm.
I'm trying to figure out the difference in COA between the two. There's obviously the 90k in tuition, and then I guess maybe around 10-20k annually in cost of living (between NYC versus Duke)? If you settle on like 15k a year in COA difference, that's about 135k difference between the two, which is (totally ballparking) probably about 160 or 170k once you figure in interest associated with paying off that debt, and maybe another 5k or 10k when you consider the foregone opportunity cost of not having been able to begin investing money in the market while you were stuck paying off that extra debt. That's a lot of money.
With that said, it's relatively difficult to land a tax summer associate/biglaw spot, which cuts toward Columbia. I feel like it's safe to say that tax associates also often last longer in biglaw, given the better QOL as a tax associate versus as a general corporate associate, which also cuts toward perhaps willingness to take on more debt.
I feel like the California piece is a bit of a red herring (and you did correctly identify it as secondary to being able to enter biglaw in the first place). Once you have a tax associate gig at any biglaw firm, no firm is going to care whether you were in the top or bottom of the T14.
I'm not really sure where I land.
I'm trying to figure out the difference in COA between the two. There's obviously the 90k in tuition, and then I guess maybe around 10-20k annually in cost of living (between NYC versus Duke)? If you settle on like 15k a year in COA difference, that's about 135k difference between the two, which is (totally ballparking) probably about 160 or 170k once you figure in interest associated with paying off that debt, and maybe another 5k or 10k when you consider the foregone opportunity cost of not having been able to begin investing money in the market while you were stuck paying off that extra debt. That's a lot of money.
With that said, it's relatively difficult to land a tax summer associate/biglaw spot, which cuts toward Columbia. I feel like it's safe to say that tax associates also often last longer in biglaw, given the better QOL as a tax associate versus as a general corporate associate, which also cuts toward perhaps willingness to take on more debt.
I feel like the California piece is a bit of a red herring (and you did correctly identify it as secondary to being able to enter biglaw in the first place). Once you have a tax associate gig at any biglaw firm, no firm is going to care whether you were in the top or bottom of the T14.
I'm not really sure where I land.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Even assuming that the COA difference is about $135,000 over 3 years, I would suggest that you attend Columbia law school as biglaw is a much more likely outcome than if you attended Duke law school.
With a 174 LSAT and a 3.92 uGPA, you should have other T-14 options with scholarship money. Are Duke & Columbia your only options ?
With a 174 LSAT and a 3.92 uGPA, you should have other T-14 options with scholarship money. Are Duke & Columbia your only options ?
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Did you get any packages or something at say Penn? I know this year has been crazy anyways, but I feel like you should have more options on the table (perhaps you did but you nixed them as they were much less attractive or something- but if you had sticker to C and sticker to Penn, I bet telling them would have them up their game).
I would personally take Duke, as I'm more worried about debt, but I do think C is the safer bet for your specific goals; but both will get you biglaw in NYC. I don't think you can go wrong with either, I personally just wouldn't pay 100k+ more for C compared to Duke.
I would personally take Duke, as I'm more worried about debt, but I do think C is the safer bet for your specific goals; but both will get you biglaw in NYC. I don't think you can go wrong with either, I personally just wouldn't pay 100k+ more for C compared to Duke.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Thanks for the input, everyone. Those are my best options -- I did not apply to enough schools and also definitely underperformed my numbers. (Reapplying is not an option.) I have a Northwestern offer on the table as well, but no financial aid from them. Besides that, a full ride at WashULaw and 50% off BU.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
If you haven't already done so, I'd recommend reaching out to Northwestern with the Duke scholarship and saying that you'd much prefer to attend Northwestern, given their nationally recognized tax LLM program and your goal to engage in tax (backed up by whatever extracurricular/undergrad activities you did that support that narrative). It's possible they just didn't want to extend scholarship money to someone that they didn't view as being seriously interested.tax_nerd wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:39 pmThanks for the input, everyone. Those are my best options -- I did not apply to enough schools and also definitely underperformed my numbers. (Reapplying is not an option.) I have a Northwestern offer on the table as well, but no financial aid from them. Besides that, a full ride at WashULaw and 50% off BU.
FYI - Northwestern is great in that it allows you to graduate in three years with both your JD and your tax LLM through the school. It's probably ranked third or fourth in the country as a tax LLM program.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
This is great advice in my opinion.showusyourtorts wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:18 pmIf you haven't already done so, I'd recommend reaching out to Northwestern with the Duke scholarship and saying that you'd much prefer to attend Northwestern, given their nationally recognized tax LLM program and your goal to engage in tax (backed up by whatever extracurricular/undergrad activities you did that support that narrative). It's possible they just didn't want to extend scholarship money to someone that they didn't view as being seriously interested.tax_nerd wrote: ↑Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:39 pmThanks for the input, everyone. Those are my best options -- I did not apply to enough schools and also definitely underperformed my numbers. (Reapplying is not an option.) I have a Northwestern offer on the table as well, but no financial aid from them. Besides that, a full ride at WashULaw and 50% off BU.
FYI - Northwestern is great in that it allows you to graduate in three years with both your JD and your tax LLM through the school. It's probably ranked third or fourth in the country as a tax LLM program.
I review tax llm programs quite often & have done so for many years. Northwestern's tax llm program is outstanding. NYU does well because of its location & due to its JD program ranking. NYU, Georgetown, Florida, & Northwestern are all superb tax llm programs. Several others are great for those seeking employment in other than NYC biglaw.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
I faced the same decision 4 years ago (minus wanting to do tax). I went to Duke and I am so thankful thinking about ALL the money I saved. Columbia will give you the slight edge, but that can be made up for with networking IMO.
I loved my time at Duke. Probably the best 3 years of my life.
I loved my time at Duke. Probably the best 3 years of my life.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
So, caveat that I am still an undergrad.
But here are some numbers from the class of 2019.
Columbia: 82% biglaw + FedClerk, with 78% bl and 4% clerk
Duke: 76% biglaw + FedClerk, with 62% bl and 14% clerk
If we assume that anyone who clerked was capable of getting biglaw, then Columbia's placement isn't meaningfully better than Duke's.
Duke is also much cheaper for you.
But here are some numbers from the class of 2019.
Columbia: 82% biglaw + FedClerk, with 78% bl and 4% clerk
Duke: 76% biglaw + FedClerk, with 62% bl and 14% clerk
If we assume that anyone who clerked was capable of getting biglaw, then Columbia's placement isn't meaningfully better than Duke's.
Duke is also much cheaper for you.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Duke is the clear choice, right? Am I crazy?
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Easy call for Duke. For generic biglaw goals take the cheapest T13.
If you miss out on west coast out of law school then you should be able to lateral/change offices after a year or two.
If you miss out on west coast out of law school then you should be able to lateral/change offices after a year or two.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
If you are really interested in tax, then I think Duke makes more sense. You will save significant money and still have a great shot at biglaw jobs, but if you strike out you can go get a tax LLM at NYU and get another bite at the apple. Assuming you have mediocre grades, coming from Duke JD you'd be a top candidate for LLM scholarships, plus have the best shot at biglaw jobs hiring that year. Loans for an LLM year won't hurt as much with lower debt.
Even if you aren't 100% certain about tax, I personally would never want to pay off the loans for Columbia at sticker price.
Even if you aren't 100% certain about tax, I personally would never want to pay off the loans for Columbia at sticker price.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
I hadn't even thought about this, but I completely agree. Duke for almost certain shot at biglaw + NYU LLM as a last resort backup (where you'd be likely to get a decent scholarship and almost certainly be able to pull a biglaw tax job) are a great combo.Trout et al wrote: ↑Thu Apr 01, 2021 11:09 amIf you are really interested in tax, then I think Duke makes more sense. You will save significant money and still have a great shot at biglaw jobs, but if you strike out you can go get a tax LLM at NYU and get another bite at the apple. Assuming you have mediocre grades, coming from Duke JD you'd be a top candidate for LLM scholarships, plus have the best shot at biglaw jobs hiring that year. Loans for an LLM year won't hurt as much with lower debt.
Even if you aren't 100% certain about tax, I personally would never want to pay off the loans for Columbia at sticker price.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
This one is tough. Negotiated Northwestern scholarship would be the easy choice if you were able to swing it. Otherwise Columbia at sticker is just indefensible, and I’d take Duke.
But hard to say with the tax consideration, since tax in general is hard to land without some relevant background experience. You might also find that you hate tax once you’re actually doing it. And transactional tax vs tax controversy are very different, and not all firms do tax controversy work (even at the v10 level).
But hard to say with the tax consideration, since tax in general is hard to land without some relevant background experience. You might also find that you hate tax once you’re actually doing it. And transactional tax vs tax controversy are very different, and not all firms do tax controversy work (even at the v10 level).
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Agree with other posters that if you can negotiate $$ from Northwestern that is the way to go as Northwestern punches above their weight in biglaw. You can land biglaw from Duke, but need to be in the top half. Also, feel like this is not said enough but Columbia students stay in NY so NY biglaw at a V20 will be a fight still. Did you apply anywhere else? Penn or Chicago?
If your options are truly Duke vs Columbia, I would select Duke. You can get generic biglaw and if you end up at lower v100 you can claw up. In this market my V30 has been taking a lot of associates wherever we can find them because bodies are bleeding.
If your options are truly Duke vs Columbia, I would select Duke. You can get generic biglaw and if you end up at lower v100 you can claw up. In this market my V30 has been taking a lot of associates wherever we can find them because bodies are bleeding.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
For the record, you don’t need to be top half at Duke. Like 75% of the class does biglaw/clerkship.
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- Bosque
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
I don't mean to belittle the question, but I see zero argument for sticker anywhere in the top 14 for Biglaw if you have half tuition at any of them. Duke is a no brainer (way cheaper cost of living too).
If you want Northwestern or Columbia instead, feel free to try and see if they will match the scholarship, they might. But on just these facts it sounds like you are a Blue Devil.
If you want Northwestern or Columbia instead, feel free to try and see if they will match the scholarship, they might. But on just these facts it sounds like you are a Blue Devil.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
Chiming in to say that I was in almost this exact same situation a few years ago, chose Duke, and am forever grateful that I didn't borrow almost $300k to go to Columbia because USNWR put it a few spots higher on its magazine list. Duke has exceptional biglaw placement and is, in my opinion, located in the most comfortable place in the T14 to spend three years of law school - especially when CoL is factored in.
I also successfully negotiated more money out of Duke (on my second attempt to ask) when Columbia offered me a very small scholarship - something like $25k total over three years - so you could consider doing the same.
I also successfully negotiated more money out of Duke (on my second attempt to ask) when Columbia offered me a very small scholarship - something like $25k total over three years - so you could consider doing the same.
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Re: Duke @ half price or Columbia at sticker? Biglaw or bust.
This is a fucking insane question. Going to Duke (bc culture, location, idk who cares) is a defensible choice even when its the same price as CLS. Going to Duke is almost always the only defensible choice when its over a hundred grand cheaper. Especially if you're just trying for generic biglaw, CLS will only offer an extremely marginally better chance at working at Cravath over Weil or something which is as irrelevant of a difference as you can find. Tl;dr go to Duke!
ETA: If you genuinely want to be a tax lawyer and do well in tax courses, firms will hire you in seconds. Regardless of whether your school is T5 v. T10.
ETA: If you genuinely want to be a tax lawyer and do well in tax courses, firms will hire you in seconds. Regardless of whether your school is T5 v. T10.
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