Ohio Schools Forum

[nixy]

Lol skills? Idk, understanding how the legal system works, constitution, criminal justice, how laws work in practice (courtroom). Clearly a JD education is a value asset for a politician

What do you think politicians do, and why do you think someone needs a JD to understand how the legal system works or how the constitution works? Why do you think being able to try a case in a courtroom is relevant? I've tried a bunch of cases but I don't know anything about actually passing laws, or working in elected office, dealing with constituents, fundraising, getting a budget passed, any of that stuff. Someone like Nancy Pelosi isn't a lawyer but knows a shitload about politics and how to get things done (regardless of whether you agree with her politics or not).

[tomtownsend]

Lol skills? Idk, understanding how the legal system works, constitution, criminal justice, how laws work in practice (courtroom). Clearly a JD education is a value asset for a politician

What do you think politicians do, and why do you think someone needs a JD to understand how the legal system works or how the constitution works? Why do you think being able to try a case in a courtroom is relevant? I've tried a bunch of cases but I don't know anything about actually passing laws, or working in elected office, dealing with constituents, fundraising, getting a budget passed, any of that stuff. Someone like Nancy Pelosi isn't a lawyer but knows a shitload about politics and how to get things done (regardless of whether you agree with her politics or not).

Campaign finance law. Parliamentary procedure. How agencies do work. How to get constituents to get through the bureaucracy for benefits. What I’m saying is that as good as she may be, with a JD she could be even better

[nixy]

Lol skills? Idk, understanding how the legal system works, constitution, criminal justice, how laws work in practice (courtroom). Clearly a JD education is a value asset for a politician

What do you think politicians do, and why do you think someone needs a JD to understand how the legal system works or how the constitution works? Why do you think being able to try a case in a courtroom is relevant? I've tried a bunch of cases but I don't know anything about actually passing laws, or working in elected office, dealing with constituents, fundraising, getting a budget passed, any of that stuff. Someone like Nancy Pelosi isn't a lawyer but knows a shitload about politics and how to get things done (regardless of whether you agree with her politics or not).

Campaign finance law. Parliamentary procedure. How agencies do work. How to get constituents to get through the bureaucracy for benefits. What I’m saying is that as good as she may be, with a JD she could be even better

Law school doesn't teach you anything about those things that you wouldn't learn actually doing those things.

[tomtownsend]

Lol skills? Idk, understanding how the legal system works, constitution, criminal justice, how laws work in practice (courtroom). Clearly a JD education is a value asset for a politician

What do you think politicians do, and why do you think someone needs a JD to understand how the legal system works or how the constitution works? Why do you think being able to try a case in a courtroom is relevant? I've tried a bunch of cases but I don't know anything about actually passing laws, or working in elected office, dealing with constituents, fundraising, getting a budget passed, any of that stuff. Someone like Nancy Pelosi isn't a lawyer but knows a shitload about politics and how to get things done (regardless of whether you agree with her politics or not).

Campaign finance law. Parliamentary procedure. How agencies do work. How to get constituents to get through the bureaucracy for benefits. What I’m saying is that as good as she may be, with a JD she could be even better

Law school doesn't teach you anything about those things that you wouldn't learn actually doing those things.

Then what can you possibly learn then if your asked to spend 3 whole years in a classroom then?

[nixy]

You learn law, not politics. You can take a course on campaign finance law, but it'll discuss the development of the law, not how you, an individual politician in a specific state, negotiates it. Cases showing the development of the law about (say) social security benefits don't teach you how actually to help someone complete the process for getting benefits in any given state. Even if you ended up being a social security lawyer and worked to help individual clients with their cases to win benefits, 1) you'd still have to learn how, logistically, to do that, on the job, and 2) that's not the same as the political process of enacting, or trying to enact, or simply figuring out if you should enact, changes to social security law. Taking something like admin law that explains how federal (or state) agencies work is actually probably helpful, conceptually (since people often don't know much about this), but you're not going to walk out of a law school class understanding how an actual politician in a specific jurisdiction works with the agencies in that state without learning an awful lot on the job.

You learn the background to practicing law, which you then largely learn how to do on the job. You don't learn how to be a politician.

Also you learn material to pass the bar exam.

I'm not saying none of what you learn in law school would ever be relevant, but that you will nonetheless still have to learn how to do politics, which you can learn in better/cheaper ways than going to law school.

[tomtownsend]

You learn law, not politics. You can take a course on campaign finance law, but it'll discuss the development of the law, not how you, an individual politician in a specific state, negotiates it. Cases showing the development of the law about (say) social security benefits don't teach you how actually to help someone complete the process for getting benefits in any given state. Even if you ended up being a social security lawyer and worked to help individual clients with their cases to win benefits, 1) you'd still have to learn how, logistically, to do that, on the job, and 2) that's not the same as the political process of enacting, or trying to enact, or simply figuring out if you should enact, changes to social security law. Taking something like admin law that explains how federal (or state) agencies work is actually probably helpful, conceptually (since people often don't know much about this), but you're not going to walk out of a law school class understanding how an actual politician in a specific jurisdiction works with the agencies in that state without learning an awful lot on the job.

You learn the background to practicing law, which you then largely learn how to do on the job. You don't learn how to be a politician.

Also you learn material to pass the bar exam.

I'm not saying none of what you learn in law school would ever be relevant, but that you will nonetheless still have to learn how to do politics, which you can learn in better/cheaper ways than going to law school.

Thanks. You make it seem like law school is a complete waste of time and money, really learn nothing. Did you go to an accredited school? I just find it strang you didn’t learn this

[The Lsat Airbender]

You make it seem like law school is a complete waste of time and money, really learn nothing. Did you go to an accredited school? I just find it strang you didn’t learn this

No shit, Sherlock—it's a massive waste of time and money if you don't actually want to practice law.

[tomtownsend]

You make it seem like law school is a complete waste of time and money, really learn nothing. Did you go to an accredited school? I just find it strang you didn’t learn this

No shit, Sherlock—it's a massive waste of time and money if you don't actually want to practice law.

Thanks for taking up to 10 out of no where. I said I want to be criminal defense, later maybe enter politics idk. But w crim defense it seems you don’t even learn much for lawyering in that practice. What a waste

[nixy]

lol, yes, I went to an accredited school. It taught me a lot about "thinking like a lawyer" and how to read cases and do legal research. It didn't teach me how to be a politician because it's law school, not politician school. It's perfectly good preparation for practicing law (though a lot of people say the 3rd year is a waste, which is probably true), just not going into politics. And even if it were wholly a waste of time (which some people do believe), you still have to get the degree to be able to be licensed to do the job.

It's not bad at training you to do criminal defense, as long as you do as much practice-based stuff as you can like clinics and internships. Practice is just something you have to learn by actually doing it.

But being a criminal defense lawyer has nothing to do with going into politics or being an elected representative of any kind. Even though you may develop a strong agenda out of your legal experience (say, criminal justice reform), the ability to try a case in a courtroom is completely different from promoting a criminal justice reform agenda within a community and legislature. Just because some people go into politics from law doesn't mean that law prepared them to go into politics. (A doctor might go into politics out of a desire to achieve health law reform. A business owner might go into politics out of a desire to make it easier for small businesses to thrive. A farmer might go into politics to represent agricultural interests. Etc.)

[tomtownsend]

lol, yes, I went to an accredited school. It taught me a lot about "thinking like a lawyer" and how to read cases and do legal research. It didn't teach me how to be a politician because it's law school, not politician school. It's perfectly good preparation for practicing law (though a lot of people say the 3rd year is a waste, which is probably true), just not going into politics. And even if it were wholly a waste of time (which some people do believe), you still have to get the degree to be able to be licensed to do the job.

It's not bad at training you to do criminal defense, as long as you do as much practice-based stuff as you can like clinics and internships. Practice is just something you have to learn by actually doing it.

But being a criminal defense lawyer has nothing to do with going into politics or being an elected representative of any kind. Even though you may develop a strong agenda out of your legal experience (say, criminal justice reform), the ability to try a case in a courtroom is completely different from promoting a criminal justice reform agenda within a community and legislature. Just because some people go into politics from law doesn't mean that law prepared them to go into politics. (A doctor might go into politics out of a desire to achieve health law reform. A business owner might go into politics out of a desire to make it easier for small businesses to thrive. A farmer might go into politics to represent agricultural interests. Etc.)

TL:dr agree to disagree

[nixy]

I mean, you do you, boo, just trying to provide a little perspective.

[tomtownsend]

I mean, you do you, boo, just trying to provide a little perspective.

I ask for school choice and debt level load to become crim defense attorney and instead get lecturing on politics

[obamalaw]

If you want to go into politics, get a MS or PhD in political science. Karl Rove is one of the savviest political operatives and does not have a law degree. Neither does David Axelrod or Roger Stone. These guys probably know political science better than any candidate who has a law degree.

I concur with what the attorney from Ohio said- unless you have a multitude of state-wide connections, I would go to school in the area I intend to practice (i.e. NKU for Cincinnati, OSU for Columbus, etc.).

Also think about the total cost- tuition, books, living expenses, etc. Will you be able to work? Columbus is a lot more expensive than Dayton. These are important things to think about.

[CanadianWolf]

With respect to elected positions & politics, a law degree is unnecessary unless running for a judicial position--which typically requires 5 years of experience in the practice of law.

Running for political office & proposing legislation does not require a legal background, but it is best to have an agenda.

In many jurisdictions, it may be tough to run for political office with a criminal defense background. Much easier to run--especially as a Republican--with prosecutorial experience on one's resume.

Law school does not teach one about politics. Being involved with a political party or with a cause does teach one a lot about politics. Nevertheless, in Wash DC it is not uncommon for political aides to have earned a law degree; often true regarding lobbyists as well. Also, some law firms have a political practice group (these attorneys may advise foreign interests about lobbying & donations).

[cavalier1138]

I mean, you do you, boo, just trying to provide a little perspective.

I ask for school choice and debt level load to become crim defense attorney and instead get lecturing on politics

I mean... maybe consider that practicing attorneys may have some more insight into the utility of law school than someone who hasn't yet finished undergrad?

[tomtownsend]

I mean, you do you, boo, just trying to provide a little perspective.

Please don’t call me boo

[tomtownsend]

I mean, you do you, boo, just trying to provide a little perspective.

I ask for school choice and debt level load to become crim defense attorney and instead get lecturing on politics

I mean... maybe consider that practicing attorneys may have some more insight into the utility of law school than someone who hasn't yet finished undergrad?

Did you read what I write? I said I want crim defense attorney, I do have some political interests. That interest does not override the interest in crim defense. I want to be a crim defense attorney, so I asked about the schools I’m applying to this year. Thanks.

[nixy]

I think Ohiobumpkin had the most helpful advice, but also consider what Canadian Wolf said about debt. Most criminal defense jobs, especially those available right out of school, won’t pay a lot. You can consider income-based repayment plans and whether you’d be willing to work as a public defender (or in another public service job) for 10 years to get your debt forgiven. Private criminal attorneys can do reasonably well, but it depends on a lot of factors, is hard to guarantee, and is especially hard to guarantee until you have a decent chunk of experience. So you will want to try to keep your debt load low, boo.

One reason people talked about politics is because there’s a pretty steady steam of 0Ls who show up here wanting to get a law degree to be the next (fill in politician of choice here). So it’s frustrating to see people buy into that when it’s demonstrably not true.

[tomtownsend]

I think Ohiobumpkin had the most helpful advice, but also consider what Canadian Wolf said about debt. Most criminal defense jobs, especially those available right out of school, won’t pay a lot. You can consider income-based repayment plans and whether you’d be willing to work as a public defender (or in another public service job) for 10 years to get your debt forgiven. Private criminal attorneys can do reasonably well, but it depends on a lot of factors, is hard to guarantee, and is especially hard to guarantee until you have a decent chunk of experience. So you will want to try to keep your debt load low, boo.

One reason people talked about politics is because there’s a pretty steady steam of 0Ls who show up here wanting to get a law degree to be the next (fill in politician of choice here). So it’s frustrating to see people buy into that when it’s demonstrably not true.

Why do you keep calling me boo?

What debt load should I ask for? What happens if I can’t pay it back an is the repayment plan a good option?

[nixy]

So the debt is going to be the cost of attendance minus any amount of scholarship. Unless you have truly abysmal credit, you’ll get approved for loans up to the cost of attendance. Scholarships (free money) are awarded on merit, to attract high scoring students (which is where the suggestions to retake the LSAT are coming from). Once you have an acceptance, you can ask a school to increase whatever scholarship it’s offered you (if any). It helps to have scholarship offers from comparable or better schools to use to negotiate with. The higher your scores are in relation to a school’s lsat and gpa medians, the more likely you are to get merit aid. You can look up the ABA 509 form for the schools you’re considering and it will show how many people got awards and what percentage of tuition/COA they were, which will also give you a sense of what’s realistic.

The best debt load is the lowest, but look up loan repayment calculators to see how much you’ll have to pay per month to pay back the loans after you graduate. And look at the starting salaries for the jobs you’re considering to see how the loan payments compare.

The repayment plans (PAYE, REPAYE, IBR) are great for people overburdened with loans in that they peg your loan payments to your income, so you can still afford to pay rent and buy food. After 20 (25? I forget) years if you still owe on your degree, the balance is forgiven, but the problem is you’re taxed on the amount of forgiveness as if it’s cash you were given.

PSLF is another program where if you work for 10 years in a public service job the balance of your loans is forgiven without a tax bomb attached.

I’m calling you boo because responding to someone’s post “Tl;dr” is kinda rude.

[Ohiobumpkin]

You learn law, not politics. You can take a course on campaign finance law, but it'll discuss the development of the law, not how you, an individual politician in a specific state, negotiates it. Cases showing the development of the law about (say) social security benefits don't teach you how actually to help someone complete the process for getting benefits in any given state. Even if you ended up being a social security lawyer and worked to help individual clients with their cases to win benefits, 1) you'd still have to learn how, logistically, to do that, on the job, and 2) that's not the same as the political process of enacting, or trying to enact, or simply figuring out if you should enact, changes to social security law. Taking something like admin law that explains how federal (or state) agencies work is actually probably helpful, conceptually (since people often don't know much about this), but you're not going to walk out of a law school class understanding how an actual politician in a specific jurisdiction works with the agencies in that state without learning an awful lot on the job.

You learn the background to practicing law, which you then largely learn how to do on the job. You don't learn how to be a politician.

Also you learn material to pass the bar exam.

I'm not saying none of what you learn in law school would ever be relevant, but that you will nonetheless still have to learn how to do politics, which you can learn in better/cheaper ways than going to law school.

Thanks. You make it seem like law school is a complete waste of time and money, really learn nothing. Did you go to an accredited school? I just find it strang you didn’t learn this

Ding Ding Ding!

[tomtownsend]

You learn law, not politics. You can take a course on campaign finance law, but it'll discuss the development of the law, not how you, an individual politician in a specific state, negotiates it. Cases showing the development of the law about (say) social security benefits don't teach you how actually to help someone complete the process for getting benefits in any given state. Even if you ended up being a social security lawyer and worked to help individual clients with their cases to win benefits, 1) you'd still have to learn how, logistically, to do that, on the job, and 2) that's not the same as the political process of enacting, or trying to enact, or simply figuring out if you should enact, changes to social security law. Taking something like admin law that explains how federal (or state) agencies work is actually probably helpful, conceptually (since people often don't know much about this), but you're not going to walk out of a law school class understanding how an actual politician in a specific jurisdiction works with the agencies in that state without learning an awful lot on the job.

You learn the background to practicing law, which you then largely learn how to do on the job. You don't learn how to be a politician.

Also you learn material to pass the bar exam.

I'm not saying none of what you learn in law school would ever be relevant, but that you will nonetheless still have to learn how to do politics, which you can learn in better/cheaper ways than going to law school.

Thanks. You make it seem like law school is a complete waste of time and money, really learn nothing. Did you go to an accredited school? I just find it strang you didn’t learn this

Ding Ding Ding!

So I shouldn’t bother?

[tomtownsend]

So the debt is going to be the cost of attendance minus any amount of scholarship. Unless you have truly abysmal credit, you’ll get approved for loans up to the cost of attendance. Scholarships (free money) are awarded on merit, to attract high scoring students (which is where the suggestions to retake the LSAT are coming from). Once you have an acceptance, you can ask a school to increase whatever scholarship it’s offered you (if any). It helps to have scholarship offers from comparable or better schools to use to negotiate with. The higher your scores are in relation to a school’s lsat and gpa medians, the more likely you are to get merit aid. You can look up the ABA 509 form for the schools you’re considering and it will show how many people got awards and what percentage of tuition/COA they were, which will also give you a sense of what’s realistic.

The best debt load is the lowest, but look up loan repayment calculators to see how much you’ll have to pay per month to pay back the loans after you graduate. And look at the starting salaries for the jobs you’re considering to see how the loan payments compare.

The repayment plans (PAYE, REPAYE, IBR) are great for people overburdened with loans in that they peg your loan payments to your income, so you can still afford to pay rent and buy food. After 20 (25? I forget) years if you still owe on your degree, the balance is forgiven, but the problem is you’re taxed on the amount of forgiveness as if it’s cash you were given.

PSLF is another program where if you work for 10 years in a public service job the balance of your loans is forgiven without a tax bomb attached.

I’m calling you boo because responding to someone’s post “Tl;dr” is kinda rude.

TL;dr

Jk, thanks for the advice (seriously)

[Ohiobumpkin]

So the debt is going to be the cost of attendance minus any amount of scholarship. Unless you have truly abysmal credit, you’ll get approved for loans up to the cost of attendance. Scholarships (free money) are awarded on merit, to attract high scoring students (which is where the suggestions to retake the LSAT are coming from). Once you have an acceptance, you can ask a school to increase whatever scholarship it’s offered you (if any). It helps to have scholarship offers from comparable or better schools to use to negotiate with. The higher your scores are in relation to a school’s lsat and gpa medians, the more likely you are to get merit aid. You can look up the ABA 509 form for the schools you’re considering and it will show how many people got awards and what percentage of tuition/COA they were, which will also give you a sense of what’s realistic.

The best debt load is the lowest, but look up loan repayment calculators to see how much you’ll have to pay per month to pay back the loans after you graduate. And look at the starting salaries for the jobs you’re considering to see how the loan payments compare.

The repayment plans (PAYE, REPAYE, IBR) are great for people overburdened with loans in that they peg your loan payments to your income, so you can still afford to pay rent and buy food. After 20 (25? I forget) years if you still owe on your degree, the balance is forgiven, but the problem is you’re taxed on the amount of forgiveness as if it’s cash you were given.

PSLF is another program where if you work for 10 years in a public service job the balance of your loans is forgiven without a tax bomb attached.

I’m calling you boo because responding to someone’s post “Tl;dr” is kinda rude.

I just want to add that cost of attendance also includes opportunity costs. If you could otherwise make $40K per year after graduating from college, then you need to add the cost of not working for 1-3 years while attending.

Have you considered an MPA or MPP instead of a J.D. for a career in government?

Again, if you want to be a criminal defense attorney, good for you! But please remember that criminal defense is not the most profitable field of law. You will likely make between $50-75K per year for a while. Because the compensation is not great in most criminal defense work (minus white collar defense), you need to keep your debt as low as possible. Have you considered a part-time night program so you can keep working while attending? That could help reduce your debt.

[mandrewsf]

OP, listen to these guys, no matter how blunt their words sound. Law's a tough profession where most fail (as in undershoot their goals) and few succeed, so you could never be overprepared. Just hearing the advice from those around you is not enough.

I would also highly recommend that you retake the LSAT. The LSAT might be one of the hardest thing that you've done so far in life (which is the case for probably most of us who have just decided to study law), yet the LSAT might also be one of the easiest things you must do during the course of your legal career. 152 is barely above the median, and the median law student's chance of achieving significant career goals just isn't that great in a profession as bi-modally distributed as law. Getting a 160 at a minimum is a fairly achievable goal since most of what you need to learn to get that score are what you could call "low-hanging fruits". Imho if you could just thoroughly understand and apply conditional relationships in the LSAT, I would struggle to see how you'd score lower than 165, which is already the 90th percentile. I would also recommend that you check out the TLS study guides to get you thinking about how to improve your score. Those helped me a lot.