Top Law Schools

GRE is now accepted also by Stanford and Duke Law schools. The trend continues.

Did anyone read what the GRE medians are at any of the law schools accepting it?

I want to caution people NOT to do this. I have a masters in another field and used the GRE to apply to six law schools a couple cycles ago. I was at or above the GPA mid range and also at or above the median GRE range if you use the LSAT conversion tool. Result of admits? 0 out of 6, including one that can only be called a "super safety." I applied in the same cycle late after taking an LSAT to seven schools, getting three admits, three wait lists and a no. Again, these were PEER schools that should have been harder since I applied later. As I documented here before, one school never even came up with a result with a GRE admit, showing as "in limbo" on LSAC despite many contacts and many people who simply didn't know how the GRE process worked in the admissions office. Some of the schools that had admissions reps call specifically asked if I planned to also take the LSAT in such a way that implied it would be better to do so.

Law schools care about the LSAT. Period. You're not going to change this. You're not special. You are not going to find a way to "do it your way." You're a number to them. (Or two numbers.) It is right and you're not going to change it. If US News rated schools on how devoted their students are to Charles Manson or how many Pez dispensers they owned, that would be what law schools cared about. Don't fight this to save four hours of your time and $200. It isn't worth the missed opportunity and hassle, not to mention the scholarship money much more likely tied to an LSAT.

texikat wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:02 am

Did anyone read what the GRE medians are at any of the law schools accepting it?

They're going to do their best not to reveal this information as long as they can.

The question then is why do more and more law schools accept the GRE (all T14 except Michigan and Berkeley) and in fact admit Substantial numbers of folks with GRE scores (e.g, Harvard and Georgetown) ? Is it a giant scam ? Who would such a scam benefit ?
Clearly, all things being equal, high LSAT is better because it helps the schools statistics in rankings. That’s also why money is invariably available for LSAT takers. But what if an applicant feels or knows she would do much better in the GRE ? If an applicant has a top GPA from a top school with superb soft factors, would she be better off submitting a low LSAT or a higher GRE ? To me the answer is obvious. The latter.

Notably — schools seem to go out of their way to say in their websites that they have no preference between GRE and LSAT. At some point, we have to assume a level of integrity in what they say.

churchillswit wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Notably — schools seem to go out of their way to say in their websites that they have no preference between GRE and LSAT. At some point, we have to assume a level of integrity in what they say.

the highest score you can get on quant for GRE (170 points) is a 97th percentile. You literally cannot get higher than a 97th percentile on the GRE quant. That's the same percentile as a 170 - which is below median for many of the top law schools.

With the GRE, even if you get the max score, your percentile/score will be BELOW MEDIAN for some top law schools.

HLS' median LSAT is 173, which is 99 percentile.

B/c the max score of quant GRE is 97th percentile, it's literally impossible to get a 99 percentile GRE score.
So even if you get a max GRE score, you are already below median for certain law schools.

churchillswit wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Notably — schools seem to go out of their way to say in their websites that they have no preference between GRE and LSAT. At some point, we have to assume a level of integrity in what they say.

But we also need to track what schools actually do. They say they consider all LSAT scores, and all elements of an application, but we know from admissions statistics that what they care about is the highest LSAT, and the overwhelmingly most important factors are GPA and LSAT.

churchillswit wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:02 pm

The question then is why do more and more law schools accept the GRE (all T14 except Michigan and Berkeley) and in fact admit Substantial numbers of folks with GRE scores (e.g, Harvard and Georgetown) ? Is it a giant scam ? Who would such a scam benefit ?
Clearly, all things being equal, high LSAT is better because it helps the schools statistics in rankings. That’s also why money is invariably available for LSAT takers. But what if an applicant feels or knows she would do much better in the GRE ? If an applicant has a top GPA from a top school with superb soft factors, would she be better off submitting a low LSAT or a higher GRE ? To me the answer is obvious. The latter.

The latter is also a very small subset of applicants.

FWIW, for the last class we have info for, Georgetown received 10,366 completed applications. 48 people were accepted but not included in LSAT calculations. (35 full time and 13 part time, out of 573 accepted.) Harvard accepted 43 out of 7333 applications (out of a class size of 564). I wouldn’t call those substantial numbers.

Yes. Very small number. But only 5-6 percent law school applicants last year used GRE. So very tiny number of applicants to begun with. Also — add the essay score to the calculation of percentages. Not just Q and V.

I don't know why this is still a debate: Some of the schools that accept GRE have directly spelled it out. GRE applicants should have an advanced degree or significant experience in a non-law-related field in order to have a solid shot at admission. If you don't have those things, take the LSAT.

churchillswit wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:04 pm

Notably — schools seem to go out of their way to say in their websites that they have no preference between GRE and LSAT. At some point, we have to assume a level of integrity in what they say.

I don't know why that would be the case. Law school admissions officers routinely lie to people about the process by selling it as a "holistic" application review.

007sean wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:18 pm

Yes. Very small number. But only 5-6 percent law school applicants last year used GRE. So very tiny number of applicants to begun with. Also — add the essay score to the calculation of percentages. Not just Q and V.

Not sure what this means. I took my numbers from the 509’s listing of how many people weren’t included in LSAT calculations, it doesn’t distinguish between Q and V and essay scores.

I understand. What I am telling you that this data omits essay scores which are actually extremely important. So we cannot get a complete picture from the data.

007sean wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 1:32 pm

I understand. What I am telling you that this data omits essay scores which are actually extremely important. So we cannot get a complete picture from the data.

What data are you talking about? Each of your posts is less coherent than the last.

First of all, If you want to engage, be respectful in tone and language.
Second, the verbal and quant scores do NOT include the essay scores. The essay scores play an important role. You cannot get a complete picture about the GRE because the data omits a third of the GRE score.

The data I relied on provides the number of people accepted who were not included in the LSAT percentage calculations. So that's the number of people who were accepted with GRE scores. I wasn't making any claims about how schools are weighting verbal v. quant v. essays because the data in the 509 doesn't include any such breakdown.

If the comment about considering essay scores was in response to a different poster, that was entirely unclear.

In any case, to the extent people disregard the GRE essay score, it's probably because law schools don't seem especially swayed by the LSAT writing sample.

Would you recommend someone coming straight out of undergrad from with a good but not 4.0 GPA to take the GRE instead of the LSAT?

Look at the admissions website for Harvard and Chicago. They are very clear that they take the writing scores very seriously and actually read the essays. It makes sense. Analytical writing is one of the absolute top skills for lawyers.
All things being equal, I would recommend the LSAT. But if one knows they will do Materially better in GRE , I would take the GRE. By that I mean doing substantially better both in relative percentiles and GRE conversion tool. These are really the only two available comparisons.

For example , If a candidate is a 160 LSAT and a 320 GRE with 5.5 or 6 writing score. I would go with latter.

007sean wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:23 pm

Look at the admissions website for Harvard and Chicago. They are very clear that they take the writing scores very seriously and actually read the essays.

I'm looking at the Harvard admissions page. They mention LSAT writing samples twice in the FAQs, and that's it. They don't suggest that they take either the LSAT or GRE writing sections "very seriously," much less that they actually read the essays. So where are you seeing these statements?

007sean wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 3:23 pm

For example , If a candidate is a 160 LSAT and a 320 GRE with 5.5 or 6 writing score. I would go with latter.

But since a candidate who takes both has to report both, that's a moot point. And why would you assume that an ~80th percentile GRE counts for more than an ~80th percentile LSAT?

From chicago FAQ

“We read the [ LSAT, GMAT and GRE] writing samples, and you should take it seriously. Remember you are applying for a professional program and it reflects very poorly on an applicant's judgment when we see a writing sample that reflects a lack of effort or professionalism.”

Moderator — do your own factual research before dismissing a point.

A candidate can take sample LSAT and GRE and see which one works much better. And then decide in one or the other. He does not have to report sample training tests !

007sean wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:43 pm

From chicago FAQ

“We read the [ LSAT, GMAT and GRE] writing samples, and you should take it seriously. Remember you are applying for a professional program and it reflects very poorly on an applicant's judgment when we see a writing sample that reflects a lack of effort or professionalism.”

Moderator — do your own factual research before dismissing a point.

Except you said Chicago *and* Harvard? and he was looking at Harvard?

Also, I think you're taking statements on the webpages too much at face value.

Nixy. In your world only GPA (even if corrupted by endless P/F) irrespective of the rigor of the college or major and LSAT matter, That’s fine. I disagree sharply. No need to continue this fruitless debate.

007sean wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:43 pm

From chicago FAQ

“We read the [ LSAT, GMAT and GRE] writing samples, and you should take it seriously. Remember you are applying for a professional program and it reflects very poorly on an applicant's judgment when we see a writing sample that reflects a lack of effort or professionalism.”

Moderator — do your own factual research before dismissing a point.

As nixy suggested, I looked at Harvard because you identified Harvard (which you notably didn't provide a quote from). Additionally, your quote from the Chicago FAQ is clearly an old one directed at the LSAT writing samples, which have never been graded. They just updated the question in the FAQ to include the GRE/GMAT. It's not an admonition that they actually read those things with an eye toward rating them; they just don't want you to write "All work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy" for 4 pages.

So maybe before you admonish someone to "do their own research," you shouldn't be making shit up.

P.S. I've taken the liberty of banning your sockpuppet account and editing those posts to reflect that they were yours. Please don't create accounts for the sole purpose of providing a supportive chorus for your own posts.

Ah. So you can tell exactly what lurks behind the minds of admissions offices.
I am done wasting my time here. Call it self banning.