Worst law school worth sticker?

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The Lsat Airbender

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:13 am

laanngo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:12 pm
I'm interested in academia because law professors produce something - scholarship. Practicing lawyers don't produce; they interpret.
Lmao post of the year

laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:28 am

nixy wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:13 am
And that's a new take on academia (if you want to produce scholarship, why law?). But also, the chances of getting an academic job in your home market are slim to none. Academia is a gig in which you have to be willing to go where the job is located.
The law fascinates me conceptually; its application less so. Every successful country has a jurisprudent legal system. Compare that to North Korea's kangaroo courts.
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:13 am
laanngo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:12 pm
I'm interested in academia because law professors produce something - scholarship. Practicing lawyers don't produce; they interpret.
Lmao post of the year
Could you explain?

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cavalier1138

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:30 am

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:28 am
The law fascinates me conceptually; its application less so. Every successful country has a jurisprudent legal system. Compare that to North Korea's kangaroo courts.
I mean, legal scholarship (with the possible exception of legal history/theory) is mostly about the application of the law. Law in the abstract isn't worth writing about.

I'd strongly suggest learning a bit about what lawyers actually do, especially if you plan on applying to law school. It is borderline impossible to break into legal academia right out of school, so unless you're prepared to slum it for a few years actually representing clients, don't bother.

The Lsat Airbender

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:37 am

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:28 am
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:13 am
laanngo wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:12 pm
I'm interested in academia because law professors produce something - scholarship. Practicing lawyers don't produce; they interpret.
Lmao post of the year
Could you explain?
Your conception is so brilliantly backwards. Sorry if I'm putting you down a little, but it really did make me laugh.

Academics, especially in a humanistic field like law, mostly just comment on existing phenomena. If it's important to you personally to get a hands-on sense of "creating things," which makes perfect sense to me, you'd probably be much happier as a transactional attorney of some kind, drafting instruments. A trusts-and-estates lawyer, for example, creates documents which might continue to shape the world decades after she dies.

laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:41 am

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:37 am
Your conception is so brilliantly backwards. Sorry if I'm putting you down a little, but it really did make me laugh.

Academics, especially in a humanistic field like law, mostly just comment on existing phenomena. If it's important to you personally to get a hands-on sense of "creating things," which makes perfect sense to me, you'd probably be much happier as a transactional attorney of some kind, drafting instruments. A trusts-and-estates lawyer, for example, creates documents which might continue to shape the world decades after she dies.
Wasn't offended. Was confused.

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decimalsanddollars

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by decimalsanddollars » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am

Can't decide if this is more trolling or 0L naivete, but I'll just comment to add that academia requires top credentials from a top school (think YHS) and a lot of luck; not something you can plan on from the schools you've listed.

If you're from Iowa and are fine with remaining in Iowa, Iowa in-state at sticker is a good outcome. This is also true if you replace "Iowa" with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Ohio (State) in each instance. But this is kind of a dumb question, and to the extent it has broadly applicable answers, those answers have been covered exhaustively above.

ETA: Minnesota also

laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:50 am

decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
0L naivete
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
If you're from Iowa and are fine with remaining in Iowa, Iowa in-state at sticker is a good outcome. This is also true if you replace "Iowa" with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Ohio (State) in each instance. But this is kind of a dumb question, and to the extent it has broadly applicable answers, those answers have been covered exhaustively above.

ETA: Minnesota also
What about the other midwestern flagships? Unlike the northeast, all their flagships have law schools.

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:05 am

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:50 am
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
0L naivete
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
If you're from Iowa and are fine with remaining in Iowa, Iowa in-state at sticker is a good outcome. This is also true if you replace "Iowa" with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Ohio (State) in each instance. But this is kind of a dumb question, and to the extent it has broadly applicable answers, those answers have been covered exhaustively above.

ETA: Minnesota also
What about the other midwestern flagships? Unlike the northeast, all their flagships have law schools.
Kansas and Nebraska's law schools (are there any other midwestern states?) are have substantially worse employment outcomes than their T50 counterparts. Hard to justify the in-state sticker price of ~$150k.

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by decimalsanddollars » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 am

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:05 am
laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:50 am
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
0L naivete
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:45 am
If you're from Iowa and are fine with remaining in Iowa, Iowa in-state at sticker is a good outcome. This is also true if you replace "Iowa" with Illinois, Indiana, Wisconsin, Minnesota, or Ohio (State) in each instance. But this is kind of a dumb question, and to the extent it has broadly applicable answers, those answers have been covered exhaustively above.

ETA: Minnesota also
What about the other midwestern flagships? Unlike the northeast, all their flagships have law schools.
Kansas and Nebraska's law schools (are there any other midwestern states?) are have substantially worse employment outcomes than their T50 counterparts. Hard to justify the in-state sticker price of ~$150k.
This, and Missouri doesn't have hegemony because of WUSTL, so it doesn't place particularly well even within the state. Michigan State has the same problem because of Michigan, which is obviously an excellent school and probably worth sticker for most goals. The Dakotas don't have a good law school, and each state's lone law school places basically only within the state. Assuming you count Oklahoma as midwest, that school also has not-so-great employment outcomes, partly because the state is so economically blighted compared to its neighbors.

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Wild Card

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by Wild Card » Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm

NYU.

Total cost of attendance is now $100,000 p.a., and you're not even guaranteed biglaw. If you do get biglaw, you might end up stuck at a V100, from which you'll be pushed out before you can make a meaningful dent on your $350,000+, 7% interest loans.

Their public interest loan assistance programs are also stingy, if you read the fine print. You would have to be a hardcore kool-aid drinker committed to making less than $60,000 for the next 10 years or so of your life, to take full advantage of those programs.

Arguably, only YHS are worth sticker, because even if you end up permanently underemployed or outright unemployed shortly following law school, you can still feel good about having gone to YHS. You don't get that with CCN, especially when you already went to a good college, and CCN is actually a step down for you.

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:22 pm

Wild Card wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Arguably, only YHS are worth sticker, because even if you end up permanently underemployed or outright unemployed shortly following law school, you can still feel good about having gone to YHS. You don't get that with CCN, especially when you already went to a good college, and CCN is actually a step down for you.
The only thing I can think of that would be more burdensome than six-figure debt is the chip on your shoulder

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cavalier1138

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by cavalier1138 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:29 pm

Wild Card wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Their public interest loan assistance programs are also stingy, if you read the fine print. You would have to be a hardcore kool-aid drinker committed to making less than $60,000 for the next 10 years or so of your life, to take full advantage of those programs.
JFC. Did the dean publicly humiliate you or something?

Anyway, this is objectively untrue. Even before the recent changes, NYU's LRAP was not "stingy" by anyone's measure.

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by ignorantfoot96 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:16 pm

cavalier1138 wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:29 pm
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm
Their public interest loan assistance programs are also stingy, if you read the fine print. You would have to be a hardcore kool-aid drinker committed to making less than $60,000 for the next 10 years or so of your life, to take full advantage of those programs.
JFC. Did the dean publicly humiliate you or something?

Anyway, this is objectively untrue. Even before the recent changes, NYU's LRAP was not "stingy" by anyone's measure.
I could not agree more with Cav, either someone is salty about being rejected or just plain ignorant about real numbers ... also I would say that big law from NYU is more or less guaranteed (yes not absolutely, but pretty damn close).

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:59 pm

decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 am
Assuming you count Oklahoma as midwest, that school also has not-so-great employment outcomes, partly because the state is so economically blighted compared to its neighbors.
Don't they have a lot of oil money right now, or are you just talking about the legal market. Not the midwest, but indian country.
Wild Card wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 2:47 pm
NYU.

Total cost of attendance is now $100,000 p.a., and you're not even guaranteed biglaw. If you do get biglaw, you might end up stuck at a V100, from which you'll be pushed out before you can make a meaningful dent on your $350,000+, 7% interest loans.
Isn't biglaw all but guaranteed at CCN, as in you have to get caught plagiarizing or graduate dead bottom to not get an offer?

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:29 pm

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:59 pm
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 am
Assuming you count Oklahoma as midwest, that school also has not-so-great employment outcomes, partly because the state is so economically blighted compared to its neighbors.
Don't they have a lot of oil money right now, or are you just talking about the legal market. Not the midwest, but indian country.
The oil industry got its teeth kicked in by COVID and large parts of it might become illegal under a Biden presidency. Also, the lion's share of the corporate legal work is done in Dallas or Houston anyway.

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:42 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:29 pm
The oil industry got its teeth kicked in by COVID and large parts of it might become illegal under a Biden presidency. Also, the lion's share of the corporate legal work is done in Dallas or Houston anyway.
Is there a reason the oil capitals became dfw/hou instead of atx, sa, or okc?

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by decimalsanddollars » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:22 pm

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:59 pm
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:55 am
Assuming you count Oklahoma as midwest, that school also has not-so-great employment outcomes, partly because the state is so economically blighted compared to its neighbors.
Don't they have a lot of oil money right now, or are you just talking about the legal market. Not the midwest, but indian country.
I won't address your question as to why Houston and Dallas have grown to significant biglaw markets while OKC has not (population, size, and money explain most of it), but Austin and SA have always been bigger legal markets from a biglaw perspective than OKC and both are growing. Even though OKC has some oil money, Texas has so much more, and OKC doesn't have much economic activity beyond oil, gas, and some limited agriculture.

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laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:29 pm

decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:22 pm
I won't address your question as to why Houston and Dallas have grown to significant biglaw markets while OKC has not (population, size, and money explain most of it), but Austin and SA have always been bigger legal markets from a biglaw perspective than OKC and both are growing. Even though OKC has some oil money, Texas has so much more, and OKC doesn't have much economic activity beyond oil, gas, and some limited agriculture.
Is McGirt vs Oklahoma likely to create a bunch of new legal jobs for tribes?

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by BrainsyK » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:03 am

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:59 pm
Isn't biglaw all but guaranteed at CCN, as in you have to get caught plagiarizing or graduate dead bottom to not get an offer?
You'd be surprised. 2 of visa issues, personality (not even manifest defect; below average charm), bad bidding (within NY), bad bidding (focusing tough markets), bad grades, and/or bad luck, and you could be out on your ass. At Columbia, I know of at least one Stone strike out.

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cavalier1138

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:48 am

laanngo wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:29 pm
decimalsanddollars wrote:
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:22 pm
I won't address your question as to why Houston and Dallas have grown to significant biglaw markets while OKC has not (population, size, and money explain most of it), but Austin and SA have always been bigger legal markets from a biglaw perspective than OKC and both are growing. Even though OKC has some oil money, Texas has so much more, and OKC doesn't have much economic activity beyond oil, gas, and some limited agriculture.
Is McGirt vs Oklahoma likely to create a bunch of new legal jobs for tribes?
Well, at least we're covering a variety of topics...

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:11 am

cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:48 am
Well, at least we're covering a variety of topics...
Should I have not mentioned the case because McGirt is a disgusting person?

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nixy

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by nixy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:53 am

laanngo wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:11 am
cavalier1138 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:48 am
Well, at least we're covering a variety of topics...
Should I have not mentioned the case because McGirt is a disgusting person?
What.

laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:55 am


nixy

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by nixy » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:04 am

laanngo wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:55 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:53 am
What.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGirt_v. ... f_the_case
I’m familiar with the case. I don’t understand your comment.

laanngo

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Re: Worst law school worth sticker?

Post by laanngo » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:16 am

nixy wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:04 am
I interpreted cav as saying that I was off topic; was that inaccurate?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

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