South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions Forum

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nealric

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nealric » Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am

obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:00 am

nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.
This isn’t Manhattan or DC, the alum already said small Tx towns so rent isnt a big deal. “Accosted” lol strong word, how about “seeking guidance politely.”

You are saying it is generally a bad option. And be more specific. 1/3 May struggle (bc we don’t know their goals or aspirations or whether they want to be lawyers) to obtain bar required employment (they still find other jobs!!!)

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:14 am

You still haven’t explained why someone would go to and complete law school if they don’t want to be a lawyer. And you haven’t shown that the alternative jobs they’ve taken are jobs they couldn’t have got without going to law school, or that allow them to pay off their debt.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:20 am

nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:14 am
You still haven’t explained why someone would go to and complete law school if they don’t want to be a lawyer. And you haven’t shown that the alternative jobs they’ve taken are jobs they couldn’t have got without going to law school, or that allow them to pay off their debt.
I mean, if you’re that eger to know you can
Look it up

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:33 am

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:20 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:14 am
You still haven’t explained why someone would go to and complete law school if they don’t want to be a lawyer. And you haven’t shown that the alternative jobs they’ve taken are jobs they couldn’t have got without going to law school, or that allow them to pay off their debt.
I mean, if you’re that eger to know you can
Look it up
Why? I’m not the one defending the school as a good choice. And also, where does one look that up?

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:35 am

nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:33 am
tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:20 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:14 am
You still haven’t explained why someone would go to and complete law school if they don’t want to be a lawyer. And you haven’t shown that the alternative jobs they’ve taken are jobs they couldn’t have got without going to law school, or that allow them to pay off their debt.
I mean, if you’re that eger to know you can
Look it up
Why? I’m not the one defending the school as a good choice. And also, where does one look that up?
Where did I say it was a “good choice”? I’m only saying your doom and glom is ridiculous. Look that up? Go on LinkedIn and look up alums if the school and their non legal jobs. I’m sure some are very good and jd was value add

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nealric

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nealric » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:54 am

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:00 am
nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.
This isn’t Manhattan or DC, the alum already said small Tx towns so rent isnt a big deal. “Accosted” lol strong word, how about “seeking guidance politely.”

You are saying it is generally a bad option. And be more specific. 1/3 May struggle (bc we don’t know their goals or aspirations or whether they want to be lawyers) to obtain bar required employment (they still find other jobs!!!)

Just because it's a small town doesn't mean rent is free. Small towns also tend to be insular. Someone from Houston just showing up in Lufkin (for example) with no connections at all to the town and asking for a job may not see much success. Nor are folks running law practices there likely to have huge needs for help, especially from random law students they don't know. Moreover, few 25 year olds living in Houston are likely to be eager to move to a random small town unless they already have ties. A plucky graduate may indeed find success with this route, but you are looking at a long uphill battle. Meanwhile, many UT (or T14) graduates are getting wined and dined by a top Houston firm during their 2L summer and offered a job making $190k to start almost a full year before they graduate. It's just a whole different universe in terms of likely employment outcomes.

If you went to the link I provided, you'd see many of those students are struggling to find ANY job (legal or not). When I say struggling, I'm talking about being unable to launch the legal career they went to school for. That happens to some students at any school, but the numbers are quite a bit higher at lower ranked schools. Compare the outcomes on that site between STCL and UT, and you will find the UT graduate to have a much higher chance (statistically) of securing well-paid legal employment after graduation.

If you are already at STCL or similar, then obviously your only choice is to hustle best you can. But if you are a prospective student, you can always decide to sit out and improve your application. The difference between UT and STCL could be nothing but a year of LSAT studying. Or even if you are hell bent on Houston, just a handful of questions could be the difference between STCL at sticker and UH with money. The front end- before you've decided on a law school- is the most efficient time to hustle if you are looking towards a legal career.

If you are not looking for a legal career and just want to go work for a company somewhere in a non-legal capacity, you are far better off getting an MBA or an Accounting masters. It's cheaper and much more directly related to the job youw ould be seeking.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by CanadianWolf » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:57 am

Best advice: Only go to law school if you want to become an attorney & enter the practice of law. Otherwise, attending law school is not an efficient use of resources such as time & money.

For those who want to use a graduate degree to enhance professional opportunities, consider enrolling in an MBA program.

nixy

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:37 pm

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:35 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:33 am
tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:20 am
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:14 am
You still haven’t explained why someone would go to and complete law school if they don’t want to be a lawyer. And you haven’t shown that the alternative jobs they’ve taken are jobs they couldn’t have got without going to law school, or that allow them to pay off their debt.
I mean, if you’re that eger to know you can
Look it up
Why? I’m not the one defending the school as a good choice. And also, where does one look that up?
Where did I say it was a “good choice”? I’m only saying your doom and glom is ridiculous. Look that up? Go on LinkedIn and look up alums if the school and their non legal jobs. I’m sure some are very good and jd was value add
So then you’re not arguing it’s a good choice? Why are you defending it if it’s not a good choice? And I think if you’re assuming the 30% of non-lawyers have good outcomes, it’s on you to show that.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:25 pm

nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:54 am
tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:00 am
nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.
This isn’t Manhattan or DC, the alum already said small Tx towns so rent isnt a big deal. “Accosted” lol strong word, how about “seeking guidance politely.”

You are saying it is generally a bad option. And be more specific. 1/3 May struggle (bc we don’t know their goals or aspirations or whether they want to be lawyers) to obtain bar required employment (they still find other jobs!!!)

Just because it's a small town doesn't mean rent is free. Small towns also tend to be insular. Someone from Houston just showing up in Lufkin (for example) with no connections at all to the town and asking for a job may not see much success. Nor are folks running law practices there likely to have huge needs for help, especially from random law students they don't know. Moreover, few 25 year olds living in Houston are likely to be eager to move to a random small town unless they already have ties. A plucky graduate may indeed find success with this route, but you are looking at a long uphill battle. Meanwhile, many UT (or T14) graduates are getting wined and dined by a top Houston firm during their 2L summer and offered a job making $190k to start almost a full year before they graduate. It's just a whole different universe in terms of likely employment outcomes.

If you went to the link I provided, you'd see many of those students are struggling to find ANY job (legal or not). When I say struggling, I'm talking about being unable to launch the legal career they went to school for. That happens to some students at any school, but the numbers are quite a bit higher at lower ranked schools. Compare the outcomes on that site between STCL and UT, and you will find the UT graduate to have a much higher chance (statistically) of securing well-paid legal employment after graduation.

If you are already at STCL or similar, then obviously your only choice is to hustle best you can. But if you are a prospective student, you can always decide to sit out and improve your application. The difference between UT and STCL could be nothing but a year of LSAT studying. Or even if you are hell bent on Houston, just a handful of questions could be the difference between STCL at sticker and UH with money. The front end- before you've decided on a law school- is the most efficient time to hustle if you are looking towards a legal career.

If you are not looking for a legal career and just want to go work for a company somewhere in a non-legal capacity, you are far better off getting an MBA or an Accounting masters. It's cheaper and much more directly related to the job youw ould be seeking.
Cool beans

nixy

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 pm

That’s a convincing response.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:54 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 pm
That’s a convincing response.
You’re elitism and condesending views are cultish. Going line by line through your monolog isn’t worth anyone’s time

nixy

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:37 pm

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:54 pm
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 pm
That’s a convincing response.
You’re elitism and condesending views are cultish. Going line by line through your monolog isn’t worth anyone’s time
Nealric has given you the politest and most comprehensive answers of anyone in this thread, but your loss.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:48 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:37 pm
tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:54 pm
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 pm
That’s a convincing response.
You’re elitism and condesending views are cultish. Going line by line through your monolog isn’t worth anyone’s time
Nealric has given you the politest and most comprehensive answers of anyone in this thread, but your loss.
Lol not at all polite. Being comprehensive is stupid if it is ful of incorrect info. not my loss, im not looking to move to texas

obamalaw

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by obamalaw » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:25 pm

nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.
100% correct. I was a stock broker for a few years before before law school, so the making fast friends and talking to people is what I was used to. It taught me how to hustle. I have that mindset. You're right, others are not made that way. To each their own!

Accosted is a nice word, by the way.

Can we please not fight with personal attacks on here like a bunch of school girls and try to answer OP's initial question.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:32 pm

obamalaw wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:25 pm
nealric wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:09 am
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 pm
nealric wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:01 pm
obamalaw wrote:
Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:54 pm
Keep in a mind a town of 100,000- 500,000 will probably pay $65,000- $70,000 starting out, if you are lucky. STCL costs about $60,000/year. For three years that's about $180,000 to $200,000.

Say you make $70,000. An individual can live off of $50,000 a year in these low cost of living towns. With this math of $20,000 /year ($1,666/month), it It will take you about ten years to pay off this debt.

Can you afford to make $50,000/year for ten years? Hopefully you will make more money as your career progresses and it will not take that long. I am trying to be transparent with you.
$70k for a baby lawyer in a small town is an extremely generous assumption. Any you are assuming this hypothetical grad gets a job in the first place. At least 1/3 don’t.
I am not trying to argue about jobs, but costs and a reasonable time line of paying debt off.

If you do not get a legal job, go work at Starbucks or the GAP until you find one. Put on a suit and stand outside the courthouse. Network like hell. Meet five new lawyers in Houston a month. Networking is just as, if not more, important than school and grades.
If you can barely pay the rent because you work at Starbucks, then you probably aren't going to have much time to stand outside the courthouse during business hours. Nor are most lawyers going to/from the courthouse going to take kindly to being accosted by a desperate job seeker while they are trying to get work done. That plan could easily backfire.

You are correct that networking can go a long way, but the fact of the matter is that somewhere around 1/3 of STCL graduates have significant issues finding employment. Not everyone has a sterling outgoing personality that allows making fast friends and networking connections, just the same as not everyone gets a 175 on the LSAT cold.

There are some people for whom STCL is a good option, and nobody here is suggesting otherwise. But prospective students need to go in with eyes open as to the difficulties they may face if they borrow a lot of money to go to STCL or a school of similar profile.
100% correct. I was a stock broker for a few years before before law school, so the making fast friends and talking to people is what I was used to. It taught me how to hustle. I have that mindset. You're right, others are not made that way. To each their own!

Accosted is a nice word, by the way.

Can we please not fight with personal attacks on here like a bunch of school girls and try to answer OP's initial question.
Agreed. Some of the personal attacks are unbelievable

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:33 pm

I mean the OP was asking about fall
2020 admission so they’re doubtless long gone (but you’re right that the fighting isn’t productive. Just irresistible sometimes).

Not sure who’s engaging in personal attacks besides tomtownsend.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by AJordan » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:51 pm

I want to give this troll job a B- but we're pushing 70 posts so I guess I'll upgrade it to B+

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:48 pm

nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:33 pm
I mean the OP was asking about fall
2020 admission so they’re doubtless long gone (but you’re right that the fighting isn’t productive. Just irresistible sometimes).

Not sure who’s engaging in personal attacks besides tomtownsend.
U r. Grow up

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by tomtownsend » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:49 pm

AJordan wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:51 pm
I want to give this troll job a B- but we're pushing 70 posts so I guess I'll upgrade it to B+
No troll here. Just a dude who posted a few facts and met w firing squaddd

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by cavalier1138 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:03 pm

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:49 pm
AJordan wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:51 pm
I want to give this troll job a B- but we're pushing 70 posts so I guess I'll upgrade it to B+
No troll here. Just a dude who posted a few facts and met w firing squaddd
I probably should have banned you once you started hijacking other threads with this routine, but I was having too much fun. Nice technique starting off with a plausible story before showing your hand; definitely made me more willing to think you were just dumb instead of dumb and trolling. 7/10, you will be missed.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by JamezPhoenix » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am

tomtownsend wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:54 pm
nixy wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:19 pm
That’s a convincing response.
You’re elitism and condesending views are cultish. Going line by line through your monolog isn’t worth anyone’s time

*Internal monologue* "don't post anything. don't post anything. don't post anything...It is not worth it.."

Okay, time to inject my two cents.
Tomtown has a point, a lot of you posters with thousands of comments under your belt say things that basically equate to, "IF YOU DONT GET FULL RIDE AT HARVARD YOU WILL LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE EATING RATS YOU IDIOT!!! RETAKEEEEEEE". Hyperbolic of me, sure, but you have to admit, not far off the mark. I got a 21k a year scholarship from UCLA and the same people I see posting now were saying the same things to me then, don't go to law school, retake, you'll never get a job, give up!!! Which is fine, that's your opinion but it is incredibly elitist and out of touch. People go to law school for all different reasons and are comfortable and uncomfortable with different things so my advice is always to do your research, know the risks and ask yourself if you can live with worst case scenario. If you can, go for it, if not then choose something that you are comfortable with.

STCL has a median LSAT of 151, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a lot of people who scored average and below on the LSAT probably didn't do a lot of lsat/law school study, and likely realized while in Law school that practicing law wasn't something they really wanted to do. Maybe that doesn't account for the full 1/3 of people who don't get a law job, but i definitely could see how it could be self-selection. I would not recommend going to a non-accredited school. But if you want to go to law school, go for it, just understand the risks, understand the amount of debt and interest you will be paying off and understand that worst-case scenario, whatever that is for you, could easily become your scenario.

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by cavalier1138 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:44 am

JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
Tomtown has a point, a lot of you posters with thousands of comments under your belt say things that basically equate to, "IF YOU DONT GET FULL RIDE AT HARVARD YOU WILL LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE EATING RATS YOU IDIOT!!! RETAKEEEEEEE". Hyperbolic of me, sure, but you have to admit, not far off the mark.
It's extremely far off the mark.
JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
got a 21k a year scholarship from UCLA and the same people I see posting now were saying the same things to me then, don't go to law school, retake, you'll never get a job, give up!!!
No. The same people you see posting now told you to not take on even more student debt to go to law school when you were interested in a non-legal career path (politics). The advice you received had nothing to do with whether you would "get a job" from UCLA, and absolutely no one told you to retake (seriously, CTRL-F your old thread for the word "retake").
JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
STCL has a median LSAT of 151, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a lot of people who scored average and below on the LSAT probably didn't do a lot of lsat/law school study, and likely realized while in Law school that practicing law wasn't something they really wanted to do.
First, that's not a reasonable assumption at all. Someone's LSAT score has nothing to do with whether they want to practice law. But more importantly, if these hypothetical people exist, then they should never have matriculated in the first place. If you don't know whether you want to be a lawyer, don't go to law school (same thing for doctors/med school, and pretty much any other graduate/professional program).
JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
Maybe that doesn't account for the full 1/3 of people who don't get a law job, but i definitely could see how it could be self-selection.
It doesn't, and it isn't self-selection. As nixy suggested above, your theory doesn't explain why these "self-selecting" students only seem to end up at shitty law schools.
JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
But if you want to go to law school, go for it, just understand the risks, understand the amount of debt and interest you will be paying off and understand that worst-case scenario, whatever that is for you, could easily become your scenario.
Do you understand that this is telling your hypothetical "self-selectors" that they fucked up?

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by nixy » Fri Mar 12, 2021 9:25 am

JamezPhoenix wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:17 am
Okay, time to inject my two cents.
Tomtown has a point, a lot of you posters with thousands of comments under your belt say things that basically equate to, "IF YOU DONT GET FULL RIDE AT HARVARD YOU WILL LIVE UNDER A BRIDGE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE EATING RATS YOU IDIOT!!! RETAKEEEEEEE". Hyperbolic of me, sure, but you have to admit, not far off the mark. I got a 21k a year scholarship from UCLA and the same people I see posting now were saying the same things to me then, don't go to law school, retake, you'll never get a job, give up!!! Which is fine, that's your opinion but it is incredibly elitist and out of touch. People go to law school for all different reasons and are comfortable and uncomfortable with different things so my advice is always to do your research, know the risks and ask yourself if you can live with worst case scenario. If you can, go for it, if not then choose something that you are comfortable with.

STCL has a median LSAT of 151, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that a lot of people who scored average and below on the LSAT probably didn't do a lot of lsat/law school study, and likely realized while in Law school that practicing law wasn't something they really wanted to do. Maybe that doesn't account for the full 1/3 of people who don't get a law job, but i definitely could see how it could be self-selection. I would not recommend going to a non-accredited school. But if you want to go to law school, go for it, just understand the risks, understand the amount of debt and interest you will be paying off and understand that worst-case scenario, whatever that is for you, could easily become your scenario.
I’ve never told anyone that they have to get a full ride at Harvard. I’m a big advocate for going lots of different places. The reason people here so regularly promote the T14 is because people regularly show up **wanting to make fat stacks in biglaw or to do something incredibly competitive like international human rights law**, for which top-ranked schools offer the best chance of achieving those goals. When people show up with different goals (and they do, although less often), they get different advice.

The other issue is when people show up wanting to go to law school who don’t have any clear reason for going to law school and wildly unrealistic expectations of what law school actually gets you. It’s not 3 more years of finding yourself like in undergrad - it’s a focused program designed to achieve one thing, get you licensed for employment in a specific profession. But no one tells those posters to go to Harvard - they get told not to go at all, and I think that’s fair.

And yet a third issue is that people are usually way more comfortable with the worst-case scenario before it happens than after - in part because no one really thinks that the worst-case scenario will happen to them, and in part because taking on the debt just doesn’t feel really real at the beginning of the process the way that it goes at the end of the process.

My issues with tomtownsend’s law school plans were his refusal to understand the facts about what he was talking about. I never told him (or thought) that he should go to a T14; I just wanted him actually to understand the risks of what he was proposing so he could make the informed decision you’re recommending (though I’m not convinced he wasn’t a troll).

I absolutely disagree that somehow students at lower-ranked schools more disproportionately decide “gee, I don’t want to be a lawyer after all but I’ll graduate anyway and see what happens” than students at higher ranked schools. There are lots of reasons for lower LSAT scores that have nothing to do with interest in the law. The difference is in schools’ placement powers, not student interest.

What the stats we have don’t capture, of course, is students getting jobs after 9 months after graduation. Based on my own knowledge of my own law school (not a T14) I’d imagine that some unknowable (but reasonable) percentage of the STCL students do go on to get jobs of some kind after that date. And the vast majority of them will figure out something to do with their life and forge ahead and be fine. But “fine” doesn’t necessarily mean that they achieve what they set out to do when they went to law school, or that they enjoy the debt they took out to do so. So when someone is at the choosing/planning stage, why **not** try to advise them of all the implications of their choices and help them really maximize their chances for success? Why **not** try to go somewhere that makes it less likely you’ll be struggling longer to get a job? Because something else people don’t appreciate until they go through it is the emotional toll that prolonged job searching takes on a person (read the Vale of Tears thread).

There’s a little bit of - mission creep? inflation? - here in that people are often advised to strive upwards a little more (again, depending on their goals). That’s not because anyone thinks the T14 or HYS or whatever are magical and inherently better, but because law is a prestige-worshiping profession where pedigree counts (admittedly in some contexts more than others, but those contexts are often squarely where posters are trying to go - biglaw or fancy public interest).

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Re: South Texas College of Law Fall 2020 Admissions

Post by JamezPhoenix » Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:57 pm

To address Cav: No, one's LSAT score is not a direct measure of interest in practicing law. But the LSAT is a very learnable test. Now, granted not everyone has the time and resources to take some fancy class, but if you are serious about practicing law, then you should be serious about taking the LSAT, which means you should be serious about practicing for the LSAT. I definitely do not believe that 100% of everyone who is scoring 150 and below is really devoting months to research the LSAT, research Law schools and research the legal profession. If you are not doing your research you are going to be in a rude awakening when you hit law school. IDK how many stories I have heard from people shocked to learn that your graded off of basically a single final exam that takes 8 hours to write. A lack of basic research shows a lack of real understanding or interest in the legal profession. I knew a classmate who went to an unaccredited law school expecting a huge legal salary based off of really bad information and having no idea what reality awaited him after law school. He self-selected, most people do. Certainly enough to account for a least part of 1/3rd of the class.

And yes, I am absolutely telling these people that they fucked up. It happens. People go to college, all forms of college, all the time based on peer pressure, bad advice and simply trying to find one's self. People are stubborn, they get in law school without a clue of what law school is or what the legal market is really like. They get median and below in their classes, but they still don't have a clue so they keep going thinking that they can magically bring up their grade. They self-select the information they want to hear about "I know a guy who failed in 1L and then Aced 2 and 3 and is now working at the top law firm in Chicago making 200k a year!" Then 2L comes around, they do poorly again, but at this point the finish line is closer than just dropping out so they go ahead, slog through it, realize they hated the whole experience and go on to do something else. Maybe they get their first taste of working in a law firm in their 2L summer and think, "THIS IS AWFUL!" These people made a mistake, they realized they made a mistake and therefore they are not practicing lawyers.



For Nix: I certainly think you can find yourself in Law school, you can get great externships, clinics, network and discover what part of law you are really good at. Maybe you think you want to do public interest but find you're actually far more interested in ADR. It happens. During my admissions process every Alumus I talked to, whether it was UCLA, Georgetown, Notre Dame, none of them knew what they wanted to practice before attending law school. The alumnus I talked to at WUSTL didn't even go on to practice law because he decided it wasn't for him, but found a great job with his JD nonetheless. I wouldn't recommend every person to go in to Law with big dreams and no plans, but so long as you're using that time to actively engage with opportunities you are interested in you can definitely forge your path while in school.

A lot of OL's and even 1L's and 2l's are starry eyed. But unless you go to a T6, your dreams just are not realistic, even if you go to HYS it's important to stay grounded in reality. Yes, tomtown is a bit...unwilling to listen to reason, but it is hard to listen to reason when everyone is saying "don't go" instead of saying "here are the risks". And yes, everyone thinks they are willing to take the risk before it is real, but that just means we need to educate them more and not make people defensive. For the rest, just see above in my reply to Cav. But I just find it highly illogical that anyone who was incredibly passionate about law school and knew all there was to know about the competitive legal and academic world would spend little to no time studying for the LSAT and get a 150. People pay exorbitant amounts to attend undergrad with no clue of what they want to do, I see no reason why some of those people wouldn't also try attending law school. Why else would anyone attend a school ranked outside of say...the top 75?

Seriously? What are you waiting for?

Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!


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