Top Law Schools

Hello TLS,

From what I've seen on the site, my inquiry is quite odd.

For reference:
-I am a high school senior (URM)
-Have been admitted to Princeton University as well as Univ. of South Dakota (in-state)
-Have taken two practice LSATs and scored 176 and 175 with no prep

Back in December, I was 100% certain that I would be heading to Princeton this fall. However, my parents recently switched up on me that they are now unwilling to pay a dime for college, so I would have to take on an estimated 130k in debt across 4 years (that includes the estimated financial aid). At USD I'll be paying around 70k.

I am pretty confident I can score a 179 or 180 on the LSAT after some rigorous prep. So, with all of this being said, how much more will going to Princeton help for law school admissions? Is it worth the extra 60k and extra stress (USD should guarantee a high gpa)? Or will a high gpa and lsat at the state school be enough for YHS?
Admittedly, I am a bit of a prestigewhore, and going to USD seems a tad annoying after essentially grinding myself apart for the past four years of high school.

I appreciate the help.

Your GPA is far more important than where you got it. A Princeton degree obviously opens more doors for post-undergrad employment, which should be a consideration for you. But getting a state-school degree isn't going to hurt your law school admissions chances.

That said, you should not even be thinking about the LSAT, let alone law school, at this point. Focus on college, and don't assume you need to go straight through to law school.

If you do things right you’ll look back on this post in five years and be super embarrassed.

As a matter of general advice, I'd recommend P. It will open way more doors than I, and over the next 4 years you very well might decide you don't want to be a lawyer, in which case I suspect you will be much happier/better off with a degree from P.

That said, for purposes of law school admissions, a 3.9 from I will be looked at for favorably than a 3.8 from P.

There is no shame in hanging out in Vermillion and being a Coyote, but it's hard to overstate how many doors will open up by going to Princeton (through grade inflation; general prestige; a well connected faculty; networking opportunities; etc.) For a difference of ~$50k, I would pick Princeton every time.

Highly recommend going to Princeton and taking some time over the next few months to apply broadly for private scholarships. There are thousands of private scholarships set up all over the country, and depending on your background, you may be eligible for one or more of them. If you are as good at googling and amateur grant-writing as you are at standardized tests, you could significantly reduce your total cost of attending one of the best schools in the country.

Yeah I went to public school and am a huge fan but Princeton for about 60k more seems totally worth it. It'll forever be impressive to people, and 1 of 2 things could happen while there:

1. you decide you don't want to go to law school anymore. Great, you have a universally recognized degree across the entire world.

2. you still want to go to law school. Great, you have something in common with many of the most successful and powerful lawyers. Many went to Princeton, and many more went to the ivy league/similarly fancy schools. As a URM from SD, I would really like that added similarity when you may not have a ton in common with the people interviewing you otherwise.

And ditto to added scholarships. You also may be able to make not insignificant $$ over the summer doing paid internships etc., and can very easily get a research job on campus that's both impressive and adds a little cash.

Go to Princeton. You could study basket weaving and probably get a job at Goldman.

In all seriousness, that institution will probably open many doors for you, some of which you may well find to be more interesting or fulfilling than a career in law. And “plausible” worst case scenario for law—end up with a 3.3 P. Your LSAT potential and URM status will make up for it. I know URMs that got full rides at T13s with HYP low 3.X undergrad GPA and 171+. Especially since if you got a 175-176 with no prep you can probably get a 179-180. Congratulations on the amazing opportunity you have.

Undergrad name brand is not important for law school admissions. However, it's a big mistake to take that to mean it's not important at all. Even assuming your plan to go to law school works, employers will look at your undergraduate school (especially if you are K-JD). Regardless of whether they're right to do so, some elite employers will shut the door to plebs to went to a random state school instead of an elite one. And if something changes and you decide law school or the legal profession is not for you, your undergrad pedigree and network will matter.

Do not base your matriculation decision on vague assumptions about how harsh or easy grading will be at the schools. I absolutely would not choose a state school you're going to borrow $70k to attend over Princeton for $120k. This would be a closer call if you had a full ride to the state school alternative. Sounds like your parents screwed you over by not telling you their plans, so you didn't know you needed to apply widely to look for merit scholarships.

It sounds stupid and is something nobody thinks about when picking a college, but if you attend a school that gives A+'s you have a huge advantage over most of the country. Even if you don't come away with a GPA over a 4, you'd find that students who would have a 3.6 elsewhere will have a 3.9 at these schools. If you're smart enough to get an SAT score to get you into Princeton, if you go to a school with A+'s, you're nearly guaranteed to get an LSAT score that will get you into t-14's. If you're deadset on law school, pick the college that gives A+'s.

I agree with the people recommending Princeton. No idea if they give A+s (please don’t use that as the basis for your decision), but I agree that Princeton opens up a lot more doors to you than SD does (no disrespect meant to SD). If we were looking at $100k+ difference, or you knew that you never wanted to leave SD, ever, period, maybe it would be a different story. Or if it were SD v. a school with a more national name but not at Princeton’s level (like maybe William and Mary or Purdue or something) it would be a closer call. But for $50k difference I think Princeton is worth it, especially because I know tons of people who went to undergrad thinking they wanted to be lawyers, and left with a completely different plan.

100% Princeton and don't look back. We are talking about what is one of the absolute best undergrad institutions in the world and can launch you in a thousand different, very cool directions. The people you will meet alone justify the $50k difference and I'm usually a debt averse person.

texanslimjim wrote: Even assuming your plan to go to law school works, employers will look at your undergraduate school (especially if you are K-JD). Regardless of whether they're right to do so, some elite employers will shut the door to plebs to went to a random state school instead of an elite one.

As an anecdotal counterpoint, I did not find this to be the case (in terms of biglaw at least). All else being equal, I’m sure someone who graduated summa from Princeton will have an edge over someone who graduated summa from Ohio State, for example; but in my experience, there are several non-elite undergrad students that go on to do quite well 1L, and also plenty of HYP people that are at or below median and receive commensurate offers.

I don't think it's so much that people from non-elite undergrads who excel will still have lots of options, as that people from elite undergrads who are median or below are likely to have slightly better options than non-elite undergrads at median, based on connections and networks.

Libya wrote:

texanslimjim wrote: Even assuming your plan to go to law school works, employers will look at your undergraduate school (especially if you are K-JD). Regardless of whether they're right to do so, some elite employers will shut the door to plebs to went to a random state school instead of an elite one.

As an anecdotal counterpoint, I did not find this to be the case (in terms of biglaw at least). All else being equal, I’m sure someone who graduated summa from Princeton will have an edge over someone who graduated summa from Ohio State, for example; but in my experience, there are several non-elite undergrad students that go on to do quite well 1L, and also plenty of HYP people that are at or below median and receive commensurate offers.

FWIW I agree with you---and did not go to an Ivy Plus undergrad---but I do think they're overrepresented. My experience in the legal world has not been "wow it's such a egalitarian place." More like "why has every lawyer been focused on getting gold stars since he was in elementary school." You know, me too, but it's funny.

Back in 2L, I remember a friend/classmate and I did the math on our summer law firm class (like ~30 or so people) out of curiosity when we received the list, because after skimming we were like, surprised at how fancy everyone was. You know, you're going through, and start thinking "how the fuck did I get a job here, I'm like the least-impressive person on this list."

IIRC it was like ~40% HYP undergrad, well over half Ivy League, and basically everyone had gone to at least a Chicago/Northwestern/UVA sort of place. Like, literally fewer than 5 people went to undergrads that I'd imagine have an admissions rate over 25%.

Just an observation from a filthy non-HYP alum. Anyway OP, go to Princeton. If you're dead-set on law school, major in something easy, get As, and enjoy college.

Thanks for the input guys, I really appreciate it.

I'm definitely going to spend the next couple of months researching and applying for a ton of private scholarships. Even though Princeton gave me good aid, I actually think my parents must have screwed something up in the paperwork or tax filings. We own a small farm and have taken on rather large debt but I don't think it translated very well over to my financial aid package. And neither of my parents graduated high school for that matter so I don't think they were actually expecting to have to pay anywhere near $50k, even though I had convinced them that they could/should pay for it lmao (I guess that's some irresponsibility from both sides).

And yes, I probably will be going to Princeton. As you all have mentioned, there are numerous advantages that I would love to use and explore.

Thanks

Libya wrote:

texanslimjim wrote: Even assuming your plan to go to law school works, employers will look at your undergraduate school (especially if you are K-JD). Regardless of whether they're right to do so, some elite employers will shut the door to plebs to went to a random state school instead of an elite one.

As an anecdotal counterpoint, I did not find this to be the case (in terms of biglaw at least). All else being equal, I’m sure someone who graduated summa from Princeton will have an edge over someone who graduated summa from Ohio State, for example; but in my experience, there are several non-elite undergrad students that go on to do quite well 1L, and also plenty of HYP people that are at or below median and receive commensurate offers.

My point is indeed limited to the top student from Big Mediocre State School vs top student from Ivy comparison. The extra gold star absolutely adds grease to various doors. The State guy can usually still get through plenty of those doors to have a great career. The advantage the Ivy guy has is only relevant on the margins. But depending on what OP's ambitions, he might want that advantage.

texanslimjim wrote:

Libya wrote:

texanslimjim wrote: Even assuming your plan to go to law school works, employers will look at your undergraduate school (especially if you are K-JD). Regardless of whether they're right to do so, some elite employers will shut the door to plebs to went to a random state school instead of an elite one.

As an anecdotal counterpoint, I did not find this to be the case (in terms of biglaw at least). All else being equal, I’m sure someone who graduated summa from Princeton will have an edge over someone who graduated summa from Ohio State, for example; but in my experience, there are several non-elite undergrad students that go on to do quite well 1L, and also plenty of HYP people that are at or below median and receive commensurate offers.

My point is indeed limited to the top student from Big Mediocre State School vs top student from Ivy comparison. The extra gold star absolutely adds grease to various doors. The State guy can usually still get through plenty of those doors to have a great career. The advantage the Ivy guy has is only relevant on the margins. But depending on what OP's ambitions, he might want that advantage.

Not so relevant to OP bc with that LSAT he should be in at a T14 if he keeps going that way, but especially if you don't go to a t14, having an ivy undergrad seemed to help. You're just more part of the club that (as someone mentioned earlier) most others are in, either through law school or undergrad (or even a crazy number of ppl from a few high schools in NYC and LA).

I had neither and went to a T25, and while it's anecdotal, it did feel like ppl with similar stats with an ivy undergrad fared a lot better at OCI.