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Hi, I've a question about C & F.

A while ago, I left a job on my own, and I was originally recognized as a good worker, but my employer became upset when I placed my 2 week notice. They tried to overwork me and separated me from the rest of the team during my last days. It's a small company, so there's no HR department I could really turn to (I was aware that this happened to previous employees before I left, so I knew I wasn't going to leave unscathed). On the last day, I was told that now they weren't happy with my work the last weeks, and pretended that they never praised my work or rewarded me before, which they did. There was no formal write up or anything, and never got in trouble before (I knew coworkers who did, and they did receive write ups, but I never got one).The owner usually did this when someone left, I can't remember anyone leaving in good terms, and there was a high turnover rate for such a small company. However, I'm concerned now that they could provide a bad reference for me to the bar. Since it's a very small company, I'm afraid they'll just say I never was a good employee. I never had issues with previous employers and things have been going well at my current employer. Should I write about this on a C&F addendum? How should I even address this? Any help advise or tips would be appreciated.

I know it was small, but was there anyone besides the owner supervising you?

There was a direct supervisor, but they're were pressuring me too. While I think the direct supervisor could say something nicer, that person's too dependent on the owner, to the point that they might go to the owner for it.
There was another supervisor who I occasionally helped that wouldn't say anything bad about me, and a senior coworker who could also say something positive.

I'm trying to apply this cycle, and I'm not sure if I should do a C & F addendum or not on this situation, since the owner did know I wanted to attend law school and brought up briefly that the bar would need to check with the company (didn't say they'll say something bad about me, but it was said like a threat) While this was over a year ago, I'm not sure if it'd affect me for admissions or to pass the bar.

This isn't going to be an admissions issue, and none of what you've said would be responsive to a school's C&F questions (or the bar's, for that matter).

You may want to make a note on your bar application when the time comes, but you can probably avoid the issue by using the better supervisor as your verification reference.

This depends on the state, but it's generally unlikely that you need an affidavit from a previous employer unless they are a legal employer or you were let go for a reason that could reflect on your moral turpitude. If you don't have other C&F issues, it's very unlikely they are going to investigate your past employment. Even if they do, they're unlikely to care if a non-legal employer from years ago states you're incompetent or was an unreliable employee. It's very unlikely he'd make up false accusations that you stole something or the like regardless of how big of an a-hole he is. Unless he is completely crazy, there's no way the risk reward would check out for him, and he is probably just mad because it costs time and money to replace employees. That's inconsistent with him making up accusations that could harm him financially, and cannot provide any material benefit.

It's not something to lose sleep over.

Based on the information you have provided, it doesn't sound like this will be something that will be applicable to your law admissions process unless either (i) you have knowledge that you have done something that would create a C&F issue during your time in this role (whether or not your employer knows about it) or (ii) you have knowledge that this has employer has filed, or intends to file, a lawsuit or some other official complaint against you for something that would be applicable to C&F. If the answer to (i) is no, then unless you are aware that the employer has actually accused you of something that would be responsive to a C&F question, I am not seeing how this is relevant to C&F. C&F questions are not concerned with poor work performance (whether true or untrue), if it involves a C&F issue. Law schools will not call your prior employers to assess how you were as an employee and likely the bar C&F process will not either unless there is something in public records. Of course, if you are aware of something you did that could raise a C&F issue in the future, now is the time to get ahead of it for sure.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I was thinking of C&F specifically for UVA, since they do ask about any issues with an employer, I think that's the only application I've seen that asks about that.

I don't think he'll make up something outrageous, but I was concerned if a bad reference would be bad for the bar, as he pretty much threatened me with this specifically as I left (I imagine he meant I was a poor performing employee when he made this threat).

If anyone has insights on this I'll appreciate it. Also, please don't quote this, I'll delete this later on.

antelope wrote:Thank you everyone for your responses. I was thinking of C&F specifically for UVA, since they do ask about any issues with an employer, I think that's the only application I've seen that asks about that.

I don't think he'll make up something outrageous, but I was concerned if a bad reference would be bad for the bar, as he pretty much threatened me with this specifically as I left (I imagine he meant I was a poor performing employee when he made this threat).

If anyone has insights on this I'll appreciate it. Also, please don't quote this, I'll delete this later on.

What is the exact wording of the application question?

This is the UVA app question:

"Have you ever been subject to verbal or written discipline (informal or formal, and of any type, such as but not limited to warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) for scholastic or other reasons in any of the colleges, universities, graduate or professional schools you have attended (including organizations you have participated in at these institutions), or by any employer?"

antelope wrote:This is the UVA app question:

"Have you ever been subject to verbal or written discipline (informal or formal, and of any type, such as but not limited to warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) for scholastic or other reasons in any of the colleges, universities, graduate or professional schools you have attended (including organizations you have participated in at these institutions), or by any employer?"

For my money, the situation you described isn't responsive to that question. Unless your prior employer actually did something punitive at work (e.g. gave you a bad review, removed you from a project, etc.), I don't see how complaining about you on your way out the door qualifies as discipline or reprimand.

cavalier1138 wrote:

antelope wrote:This is the UVA app question:

"Have you ever been subject to verbal or written discipline (informal or formal, and of any type, such as but not limited to warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) for scholastic or other reasons in any of the colleges, universities, graduate or professional schools you have attended (including organizations you have participated in at these institutions), or by any employer?"

For my money, the situation you described isn't responsive to that question. Unless your prior employer actually did something punitive at work (e.g. gave you a bad review, removed you from a project, etc.), I don't see how complaining about you on your way out the door qualifies as discipline or reprimand.

It is an incredible vague question as applied to professional settings.

LSATWiz.com wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

antelope wrote:This is the UVA app question:

"Have you ever been subject to verbal or written discipline (informal or formal, and of any type, such as but not limited to warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) for scholastic or other reasons in any of the colleges, universities, graduate or professional schools you have attended (including organizations you have participated in at these institutions), or by any employer?"

For my money, the situation you described isn't responsive to that question. Unless your prior employer actually did something punitive at work (e.g. gave you a bad review, removed you from a project, etc.), I don't see how complaining about you on your way out the door qualifies as discipline or reprimand.

It is an incredible vague question as applied to professional settings.

Agreed. Also, how would it even be verified? If the employer remembers giving you a stern talking-to, you literally just say that you don't recall it. I definitely don't recall every bullshit meeting I've had with an employer.

"On or about June 27, 2014, while working the cash register at the Burger King in [redacted], Michigan, I received an informal reprimand from the shift manager (I do not remember his full name, but everyone called him 'Cheeto'). He alleged that I had "stank up" the employee bathroom the evening prior and forbade me from using that bathroom until I affirmed that I would stop taking my lunches at the Taco Bell next door. I complied, and to my knowledge I was not subject to any further disciplinary action for the remainder of the summer."

cavalier1138 wrote:

LSATWiz.com wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

antelope wrote:This is the UVA app question:

"Have you ever been subject to verbal or written discipline (informal or formal, and of any type, such as but not limited to warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) for scholastic or other reasons in any of the colleges, universities, graduate or professional schools you have attended (including organizations you have participated in at these institutions), or by any employer?"

For my money, the situation you described isn't responsive to that question. Unless your prior employer actually did something punitive at work (e.g. gave you a bad review, removed you from a project, etc.), I don't see how complaining about you on your way out the door qualifies as discipline or reprimand.

It is an incredible vague question as applied to professional settings.

Agreed. Also, how would it even be verified? If the employer remembers giving you a stern talking-to, you literally just say that you don't recall it. I definitely don't recall every bullshit meeting I've had with an employer.

Not a C&F lawyer (obligatory disclaimer), but my reading of the question is that its scope is (has to be) cabined by the word "discipline". Most run-of-the-mill negative/"constructive" feedback from a direct/indirect supervisor is not "discipline". In my reading, the long list of "types" of discipline (warning, reprimand, suspension, dismissal, and/or detrimental impact to any benefit/privilege) is just intended to stop applicants from weaseling out of disclosing actual discipline ("oh, it wasn't a write-up that came from HR, it was just a verbal warning from my manager", or "so it was a write-up from HR, but it's not like they suspended me or docked my pay"). But it still has to be "discipline", not just your boss having a bad day and rolling in and yelling at you to work harder. That's not "discipline", that's just grouching (or, to be generous, negative feedback on your job performance).

Even with that reading, my example above would be responsive

The Lsat Airbender wrote:Even with that reading, my example above would be responsive

I'd just add that if a bunch of lawyers have to sit around trying to decipher what the question means and the scope of its boundaries like they are Talmudic sages trying to interpret the scope of an obscure biblical verse 1,000 years after the verse was written, it means it's a bad question.

LSATWiz.com wrote:

The Lsat Airbender wrote:Even with that reading, my example above would be responsive

I'd just add that if a bunch of lawyers have to sit around trying to decipher what the question means and the scope of its boundaries like they are Talmudic sages trying to interpret the scope of an obscure biblical verse 1,000 years after the verse was written, it means it's a bad question.

100% agree it's badly written. I am sure different 0Ls see the scope of that question completely differently.

I know it was cute, but was there anyone besides the owner oversee you?