How are UK transcripts translated and used? Forum

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nostreempereremagnes

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How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by nostreempereremagnes » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:17 am

First post here though I've lurked without an account for a bit.

I am currently a UK undergrad looking to apply to J.D programs in the next academic year. From my lurking, I've gathered that LSAC translates a UK average into four categories, with the "superior" category advantageous for admission to the most competitive law schools. However, I still have a few questions.

1. What constitutes "superior"? Can't seem to find a straightforward answer. A low 2:1 is very different to a high 2:1.

2. Do law schools follow the LSAC category blindly or do they examine individual modules' marks and make their own determinations?

3. How are these transcripts viewed compared to American transcripts? We have three-year undergraduate degrees which intensely specialise in one (or sometimes two) subject area(s). This is in contrast to the liberal arts curriculum offered at most American undergraduate programmes.

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cavalier1138

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by cavalier1138 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:51 am

1. No idea on this one.

2. Law schools look at that category alone. You don't get an asterisk next to your rating, and they don't get to report anything beyond the generic LSAC rating for rankings purposes.

3. They're viewed the same way as any other foreign transcript. For most top schools, there's a minimum threshold for your international rating, but once you're over that threshold, it's all about your LSAT. So just like any American student at a "specialized" university, your grades are your grades; no special treatment applies based on country.

Prof.Kingsfield

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by Prof.Kingsfield » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:18 pm

Hi,

Current rising 2L at H. Applied with UK transcripts 2 years ago. I was on track for a first so I was given a designation of Superior. Obviously there is a big difference between a high 2:1 and a low one but I would imagine that 2:1s in general will be designated ‘Above Average.’

For foreign candidates without a US GPA, LSAT score is far more important. UK grades, whether designated above average or superior, are not reported to the ABA or LSAC or whoever and therefore don’t factor into the school’s medians (which are crucial for rankings). The law school therefore only cares about your academic record to see that you are going to cope with the workload, keep up academically etc rather than for anything else

The schools will receive your transcript itself attached to LSAC’s report. So they will be able to conduct their own analysis of your academic profile. The school will also have a sense of your academic strength from your letters of recommendation. I don’t know if you’re going into your final year now but several schools also reached out directly and asked for an updated transcript around January. I think they were looking to see if my grades returned to the level I had reached in my first year (high first) or remained at the level I was at in my second (mid/high 2:1). So I think that is clear evidence that they are very engaged with the details of students’ grade breakdown.

I don’t think the schools will particularly care or at least inherently care that you’ve specialised. If however you’ve written a really great dissertation about something really relevant (or even not) they may be impressed by your quality of writing/research, which is likely higher than many, if not most, US candidates since they have not specialised.

I would also add that the schools seem to differ greatly in terms of their level of interest in taking students educated abroad and without a US GPA. Of the T14, Harvard, Columbia, NYU and Cornell like the class to have an international flavour. Maybe Northwestern too. I would imagine Yale also but I was never in contention there anyway. UChicago, Penn and a couple of others had a startlingly low enrolment of such candidates. My admissions outcomes were greatly correlated with this breakdown. So I’d imagine the schools in the former category would be very adept at interpreting a British transcript, and the others perhaps less so.

Feel free to reach out and PM if you have any further questions.

nostreempereremagnes

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by nostreempereremagnes » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:16 am

Prof.Kingsfield wrote:Hi,

Current rising 2L at H. Applied with UK transcripts 2 years ago. I was on track for a first so I was given a designation of Superior. Obviously there is a big difference between a high 2:1 and a low one but I would imagine that 2:1s in general will be designated ‘Above Average.’

For foreign candidates without a US GPA, LSAT score is far more important. UK grades, whether designated above average or superior, are not reported to the ABA or LSAC or whoever and therefore don’t factor into the school’s medians (which are crucial for rankings). The law school therefore only cares about your academic record to see that you are going to cope with the workload, keep up academically etc rather than for anything else

The schools will receive your transcript itself attached to LSAC’s report. So they will be able to conduct their own analysis of your academic profile. The school will also have a sense of your academic strength from your letters of recommendation. I don’t know if you’re going into your final year now but several schools also reached out directly and asked for an updated transcript around January. I think they were looking to see if my grades returned to the level I had reached in my first year (high first) or remained at the level I was at in my second (mid/high 2:1). So I think that is clear evidence that they are very engaged with the details of students’ grade breakdown.

I don’t think the schools will particularly care or at least inherently care that you’ve specialised. If however you’ve written a really great dissertation about something really relevant (or even not) they may be impressed by your quality of writing/research, which is likely higher than many, if not most, US candidates since they have not specialised.

I would also add that the schools seem to differ greatly in terms of their level of interest in taking students educated abroad and without a US GPA. Of the T14, Harvard, Columbia, NYU and Cornell like the class to have an international flavour. Maybe Northwestern too. I would imagine Yale also but I was never in contention there anyway. UChicago, Penn and a couple of others had a startlingly low enrolment of such candidates. My admissions outcomes were greatly correlated with this breakdown. So I’d imagine the schools in the former category would be very adept at interpreting a British transcript, and the others perhaps less so.

Feel free to reach out and PM if you have any further questions.
Hi, thanks for your reply. Seems I haven't posted enough to PM.

I was wondering if LSAC/law schools just took a look at all my marks, or only the marks that count towards my degree average. Long story short I go to a university that only counts certain modules towards my degree classification. If I counted everything I would be averaging very slightly below a first (like a few tenths of a percentage point) but officially I am averaging well above the lower boundary of a first. Will this be of significance to J.D admissions?

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by albanach » Fri Jul 26, 2019 11:51 am

nostreempereremagnes wrote: Hi, thanks for your reply. Seems I haven't posted enough to PM.

I was wondering if LSAC/law schools just took a look at all my marks, or only the marks that count towards my degree average. Long story short I go to a university that only counts certain modules towards my degree classification. If I counted everything I would be averaging very slightly below a first (like a few tenths of a percentage point) but officially I am averaging well above the lower boundary of a first. Will this be of significance to J.D admissions?
LSAC will, I believe, look at all your grades. They are not going to work with school-by-school policies for which grades count towards your degree award.

Law schools will look at whatever the LSAC CAS classification is, i.e. "Superior", "Above average", ...

That may make it worthwhile for you to submit now, in the hope of getting a Superior rating, which could be negatively influenced by a 2:1 degree classification later. As an aside, I don't know what you mean by a "low" vs "high" 2:1 - I never heard of anyone breaking down their degree classification beyond first, upper-second, etc.

Regardless, as was mentioned above, this is really threshold stuff and your LSAT is likely to be determinative.

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The Lsat Airbender

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:13 pm

albanach wrote:As an aside, I don't know what you mean by a "low" vs "high" 2:1 - I never heard of anyone breaking down their degree classification beyond first, upper-second, etc.
Wikipedia says about 40% of students (from the bottom of the first quartile to the top of the third quartile - at my American college that'd map onto a GPA range of 3.3ish to 3.6ish) get a 2:1 in the UK nowadays. That's a fairly wide band. On the other hand, "Above Average" is also hilariously broad and I don't think it's an unfair conversion.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by albanach » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:02 pm

The Lsat Airbender wrote:
albanach wrote:As an aside, I don't know what you mean by a "low" vs "high" 2:1 - I never heard of anyone breaking down their degree classification beyond first, upper-second, etc.
Wikipedia says about 40% of students (from the bottom of the first quartile to the top of the third quartile - at my American college that'd map onto a GPA range of 3.3ish to 3.6ish) get a 2:1 in the UK nowadays. That's a fairly wide band. On the other hand, "Above Average" is also hilariously broad and I don't think it's an unfair conversion.
I totally understand the desire for everyone who grew up with a GPA measured to a hundredth of a point to want to break down UK classifications further, but to do so is to try and fit a round stick in a square hole.

My point was, at least in my experience, you don't get a high or low 2:1. You get a 2:1. I never encounterrd a UK employer who wanted a transcript to measure performance during their degree program. If it was needed at all, it was only to confirm your degree classification. Postgraduate courses likewise don't demand a "high 2:1" as an entry requirement, but might demand a "2:1". It's simply not (or at least was not, I'm prepared to be corrected) a thing to subdivide a UK degree classification.

And, quite honestly, I think that system is a massive improvement over GPAs. People in the US are differentiating themselves over a tenth of a point where academically it makes no difference. And no where is this more ridiculous than in the law school application game, where, ridiculously, you're comparing GPAs from difference majors at different schools against one another.

Fortunately I think most law school admissions realize this and that's why GPA classification is a threshold item. Secure an "above average" and they don't need to look any further; instead they can concentrate on the LSAT where they can actually compare like with like.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by The Lsat Airbender » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:13 pm

I agree. The grass is always greener, though, and I can see why someone on the outside looking in at Superior might feel a bit disappointed.

Above Average is definitely good enough everywhere but Yale/Stanford/Chicago (and for the latter two that's more a result of their taking so few internationals anyway). If law schools cared that much they'd find a way to brag about their S/AA ratio in their viewbooks or something.

nostreempereremagnes

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by nostreempereremagnes » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:54 pm

albanach wrote:
The Lsat Airbender wrote:
albanach wrote:As an aside, I don't know what you mean by a "low" vs "high" 2:1 - I never heard of anyone breaking down their degree classification beyond first, upper-second, etc.
Wikipedia says about 40% of students (from the bottom of the first quartile to the top of the third quartile - at my American college that'd map onto a GPA range of 3.3ish to 3.6ish) get a 2:1 in the UK nowadays. That's a fairly wide band. On the other hand, "Above Average" is also hilariously broad and I don't think it's an unfair conversion.
I totally understand the desire for everyone who grew up with a GPA measured to a hundredth of a point to want to break down UK classifications further, but to do so is to try and fit a round stick in a square hole.

My point was, at least in my experience, you don't get a high or low 2:1. You get a 2:1. I never encounterrd a UK employer who wanted a transcript to measure performance during their degree program. If it was needed at all, it was only to confirm your degree classification. Postgraduate courses likewise don't demand a "high 2:1" as an entry requirement, but might demand a "2:1". It's simply not (or at least was not, I'm prepared to be corrected) a thing to subdivide a UK degree classification.

And, quite honestly, I think that system is a massive improvement over GPAs. People in the US are differentiating themselves over a tenth of a point where academically it makes no difference. And no where is this more ridiculous than in the law school application game, where, ridiculously, you're comparing GPAs from difference majors at different schools against one another.

Fortunately I think most law school admissions realize this and that's why GPA classification is a threshold item. Secure an "above average" and they don't need to look any further; instead they can concentrate on the LSAT where they can actually compare like with like.
You'd be surprised about the number of employers that care about the quality of 2:1s offered by applicants. At a recruiting information session for the London office of a well-regarded transactional law firm, the graduate recruitment team explicitly stated that they are looking for mid to high 2:1s as a minimum (65% or above). Many barristers' chambers stipulate a "good upper-second" as the academic hiring criteria. Agree that generally, it makes student care less about fighting for every decimal of their GPA.

A strong 2:1 (within 2-3 percentage points from a first) is often the minimum entry requirement for admission into most humanities and social science postgraduate programs at Oxbridge. They usually require a 3.7-3.8 GPA for those who studied at U.S undergrads. This is why I ask about whether LSAC/law schools care about the quality of the 2:1 as at least in the UK it can be a factor for postgraduate admission and getting a job (at least for a few places). A few examples linked.

https://www.graduate.study.cam.ac.uk/co ... quirements
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduat ... ent?wssl=1
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduat ... ics?wssl=1
https://www.graduate.study.cam.ac.uk/co ... quirements

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albanach

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by albanach » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:04 pm

nostreempereremagnes wrote: A strong 2:1 (within 2-3 percentage points from a first) is often the minimum entry requirement for admission into most humanities and social science postgraduate programs at Oxbridge. They usually require a 3.7-3.8 GPA for those who studied at U.S undergrads. This is why I ask about whether LSAC/law schools care about the quality of the 2:1 as at least in the UK it can be a factor for postgraduate admission and getting a job (at least for a few places). A few examples linked.

https://www.graduate.study.cam.ac.uk/co ... quirements
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduat ... ent?wssl=1
https://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduat ... ics?wssl=1
https://www.graduate.study.cam.ac.uk/co ... quirements
That's interesting. It's certainly not anything I experienced before my postgraduate studies or in any of my employment in the UK. Indeed, the first time I needed an actual transcript was for law school applications. Perhaps an Oxbridge thing and the employers that think of themselves as being an Oxbridge destination?

Regardless, as mentioned above, no law school is going to care. The purpose of the CAS is to give them a way to compare your degree and CAS has four bands. That's what the school will use. If someone with a Desmond from Birmingham Polytechnic is classified as having an Above Average degree and your 2:1 from LSE gets the same, you're going to be treated very similarly.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by Prof.Kingsfield » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:49 pm

A little late to this party about whether all marks are counted to your LSAC classification.

My experience was that they did. My first year (at my university, the first year’s marks didn’t count towards degree classification) I got a high first and in my second year I was just a smidge off of a first. I was a little worried that LSAC would discount the first year grades and then say that my 68.5 constituted above average (even though my university rounds up 68.5 for some strange reason). In the end, though, my grades were considered ‘superior.’

So make of that what you will.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by iar » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:17 pm

I had some back and forth with LSAC because my British school was being predictably rubbish at submitting the correct paperwork, so I spoke with them on the phone a lot. I found out they definitely count all of the grades.

As far as I can tell, a First is Superior. A 2:1 is Above Average.

The only time this will change is if your first year grades didn't count and you somehow performed very differently that year than in following years. That could skew their analysis away from your actual degree classification.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by albanach » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:24 pm

iar wrote:As far as I can tell, a First is Superior. A 2:1 is Above Average.

The only time this will change is if your first year grades didn't count and you somehow performed very differently that year than in following years. That could skew their analysis away from your actual degree classification.
This is definitely too simplistic. A desmond can absolutely receive an above average classification and a 2:1 has, I believe, similarly resulted in Superior. And that's not with any wildly swinging grade changes from year to year.

Regardless, I think you're giving too much weight to this. Absent a GPA, your CAS classification isn't the barrier to admission, it's your LSAT score. However, like a GPA, it's not something you can change post-graduation, so keep your focus on the LSAT. It's the only place you can make a difference.

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iar

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by iar » Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:38 pm

I mean, I believe you, I just haven't read of someone with a 2:1 get a "superior" before. I'd think it'd be super fascinated to hear from someone who has. My CAS eval matches a First to a US grade 'A', and a 2:1 to a US grade 'B+'.

Also, for what it's worth, you don't need wild grade swings for them to calculate you as a 2:1 whereas you actually got a First. I shouldn't have said "very differently". You only need to have performed slightly worse in your first year, which is very common. We're talking the difference one 1 point once everything is averaged out and weighted by credits.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by ninamatryoshka » Wed Apr 15, 2020 6:13 am

Hi,

So is the conclusion from this post that LSAC takes an average of all your years at uni and then based on that classifies you as a superior/above average (70%+ being superior)? Or does it look at your degree classification which I'm guessing is also included in your transcript and then go off of that? My first year average brings my total average down to a 68.5, but I'd still be classified as a first at my university based on my final two years, so I'm not sure what the LSAC report is going to look like.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by crazywafflez » Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:10 pm

I have a UK degree and Middle Eastern one- I have a superior and an above average. They did not care at all about my grade classifications. As long as you have a 2:1. Your LSAT is significantly more important. I'd even bet that as long as you did not get below average, that they do not care at all. My LSAT score was the only thing that predicted my results.
Seriously, don't worry about your grade designation- maybe Yale cares. I have friends who went to T14 and T20 schools with Averages and Above Averages. Your LSAT score is the most important part by far.
As far as I know, LSAC looks at your degree classification. They were fairly lenient with mine, I probs deserved an Average designation on one of my programs, but they gave me an above average instead. But don't sweat it at all. They really don't care about anything other than your LSAT.

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Re: How are UK transcripts translated and used?

Post by gaffkitten » Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:18 am

Prof.Kingsfield wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:18 pm

Feel free to reach out and PM if you have any further questions.
What LSAT score did you get to go along with your superior classification? If you don't mind sharing

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