Top Law Schools

I don't see this thread posted, so here we are - https://blog.spiveyconsulting.com/2020- ... 9-release/

Does anybody remember TLS in the days of operasporano who was obsessed with Fordham and somehow found like half of these rankings a few weeks ahead and (relatively speaking) it was a big deal?

Anyway, I just feel like it’s not now. Feel like usnwr has kind of gotten exposed. Minnesota twin cities (that’s the one, right?) over BC? Washington and Lee being in the t30 forever, GW going from like 20 to 30 and back to 20 again despite being a trap school? Comeon.

objctnyrhnr wrote:Does anybody remember TLS in the days of operasporano who was obsessed with Fordham and somehow found like half of these rankings a few weeks ahead and (relatively speaking) it was a big deal?

Anyway, I just feel like it’s not now. Feel like usnwr has kind of gotten exposed. Minnesota twin cities (that’s the one, right?) over BC? Washington and Lee being in the t30 forever, GW going from like 20 to 30 and back to 20 again despite being a trap school? Comeon.

I remember her. She was in the part time program at Fordham and did well? Was she a mod here?

I feel they’ve been exposed to people who’ve been looking at the rankings for years. But college students don’t know.

The worst part of the rankings, of course, is that to the uninitiated, there's no remote reason to suspect the cliffs in placement power between schools #13 and #14, or between #19 and #20. It's perfectly reasonable to look at the rankings and think there's no real difference between Cornell and UT - they're only two spots apart, after all!

My T25 is

T14
+
15. Vandy
16. WUSTL
17. Texas
18. UCLA
19. Fordham
20. USC
21. BC
22. Illinois
23. Notre Dame
24. BU
25. GWU

Only these 25 schools have 35%+ BigLaw+FedClerk. (The next best school, Emory, has 30%.)

QContinuum wrote:The worst part of the rankings, of course, is that to the uninitiated, there's no remote reason to suspect the cliffs in placement power between schools #13 and #14, or between #19 and #20. It's perfectly reasonable to look at the rankings and think there's no real difference between Cornell and UT - they're only two spots apart, after all!

I think Columbia and Chicago place slightly better than NYU, and NYU places better than Penn.

The very best firms (V20ish) may hire an equal number of CLS and NYU grads, but there are ~400 enrolled at CLS and ~500 at NYU (likewise, YLS crushes HLS in proportional representation).

And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Wild Card wrote:it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Who hurt you?

cavalier1138 wrote:

Wild Card wrote:it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Who hurt you?

NYU, obviously.

Wild Card wrote:My T25 is

T14
+
15. Vandy
16. WUSTL
17. Texas
18. UCLA
19. Fordham
20. USC
21. BC
22. Illinois
23. Notre Dame
24. BU
25. GWU

Only these 25 schools have 35%+ BigLaw+FedClerk. (The next best school, Emory, has 30%.)

I did this 11 months ago and maybe the preliminary numbers changed or I got my math wrong but it had
UNC at ~31%

http://www.law.unc.edu/documents/career ... april6.pdf

These rankings are at best a rough guide for those unfamiliar with the legal market. The identity of the top schools hasn't changed for 20+ years, and the minor shuffling around up or down a spot year-to-year is entirely irrelevant.

I have to roll my eyes every time some school ranked in 50-100 drops a few spots and the dean and all the students freak out

HangingAround wrote:I did this 11 months ago and maybe the preliminary numbers changed or I got my math wrong but it had
UNC at ~31%

http://www.law.unc.edu/documents/career ... april6.pdf

I'm too lazy to look up the year-to-year specifics on clerkships, but that looks like a one-year aberration for UNC's numbers. Not that they don't have decent biglaw+fedclerk for a regional school, but they usually hover around 20% big firm placement. And I'd wager that their 6% federal clerk number is an outlier. By comparison, Emory hasn't had much variation in its biglaw numbers, so it's been routinely placing 30%+ in biglaw/fedclerk.

If UNC keeps having good years like that, maybe it'll start to be a better choice for southbound law students than Emory, but one year isn't enough data to reach that conclusion. And it's a bit of a wash, because they're both regional schools serving different markets.

Wild Card wrote:The very best firms (V20ish) may hire an equal number of CLS and NYU grads, but there are ~400 enrolled at CLS and ~500 at NYU (likewise, YLS crushes HLS in proportional representation).

And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Eh, the difference in class size btw the two is closer to ~50 than it is ~100, and given year to year fluctuations, I'd have a hard time drawing any conclusions. I'd like Columbia to be better than NYU since I go here, but the only advantage at this point seems to be a shinier image among laymen. Not that that counts for nothing, but it doesn't affect legal hiring. Also, if you take a look at the raw score spread between the T6, Columbia is +1 compared to NYU and -3 compared to Chicago, which has definitely pulled ahead in the last few years. Again, I wish Columbia were better, but it doesn't seem so at this point.

Wild Card wrote:

QContinuum wrote: And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

It's been a bit annoying to see NYU dip its low-end LSAT score in order to keep up its unnecessarily ginormous class size. At the time I attended, CLS and NYU had functionally identical stats, but NYU has been trending ever so slowly downward.

(Yes, yes, I know that the LSAT is a meaningless number, but still; all I can think of is how my nothing-special score from back in the day got me no money then, but would absolutely get me money now...)

Wild Card wrote:My T25 is

T14
+
15. Vandy
16. WUSTL
17. Texas
18. UCLA
19. Fordham
20. USC
21. BC
22. Illinois
23. Notre Dame
24. BU
25. GWU

Only these 25 schools have 35%+ BigLaw+FedClerk. (The next best school, Emory, has 30%.)

I think these generally make sense, but I think putting Fordham ahead of bc bu and usc is wrong in my subjective opinion. I think the rankings should also somehow reflect how badly the above numbers relatively tank in a recession.

I also wonder if they should factor in the pay of the biglaw market they place into; in other words, second or third tier midwestern markets—while they also of course have firms with many Attorney’s—are not typically gonna pay “market.”

IMO the mini tiers here are more like

Bc/Bu/usc

Fordham, IL, GW, ND.

Just my two cents.

BrainsyK wrote:

Wild Card wrote:The very best firms (V20ish) may hire an equal number of CLS and NYU grads, but there are ~400 enrolled at CLS and ~500 at NYU (likewise, YLS crushes HLS in proportional representation).

And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Eh, the difference in class size btw the two is closer to ~50 than it is ~100, and given year to year fluctuations, I'd have a hard time drawing any conclusions. I'd like Columbia to be better than NYU since I go here, but the only advantage at this point seems to be a shinier image among laymen. Not that that counts for nothing, but it doesn't affect legal hiring. Also, if you take a look at the raw score spread between the T6, Columbia is +1 compared to NYU and -3 compared to Chicago, which has definitely pulled ahead in the last few years. Again, I wish Columbia were better, but it doesn't seem so at this point.

Pretty sure everyone should take anything Wild Card says about NYU with a grain of salt.

Obviously biased as an alum, but I’ve felt that USNWR tends to underrate UVA. When I was there we were tied at 7 with Penn, and I always felt and still feel that Penn/UVA/NYU should be tied for 6.

I understand the other two schools have better BigLawFedclerk numbers, and are undeniably a tad tougher to get into.

But Fedclerking and BL are not equal accomplishments — UVA arguably H/S/CH with its numbers there.

And UVA has more alums in Fed Gov by headcount (correct me if I’m wrong) than any other school.

But as one of the posters said — this is just about silly school pride, no one should choose Penn over UVA or Vice versa based solely on ranking.

Thus, you could say UVA is the NYU of

TFALAWL wrote:Obviously biased as an alum, but I’ve felt that USNWR tends to underrate UVA. When I was there we were tied at 7 with Penn, and I always felt and still feel that Penn/UVA/NYU should be tied for 6.

I understand the other two schools have better BigLawFedclerk numbers, and are undeniably a tad tougher to get into.

But Fedclerking and BL are not equal accomplishments — UVA arguably H/S/CH with its numbers there.

And UVA has more alums in Fed Gov by headcount (correct me if I’m wrong) than any other school.

But as one of the posters said — this is just about silly school pride, no one should choose Penn over UVA or Vice versa based solely on ranking.

Thus, you could say UVA is the NYU of

Of... of... of what?!?

nixy wrote:

BrainsyK wrote:

Wild Card wrote:The very best firms (V20ish) may hire an equal number of CLS and NYU grads, but there are ~400 enrolled at CLS and ~500 at NYU (likewise, YLS crushes HLS in proportional representation).

And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Eh, the difference in class size btw the two is closer to ~50 than it is ~100, and given year to year fluctuations, I'd have a hard time drawing any conclusions. I'd like Columbia to be better than NYU since I go here, but the only advantage at this point seems to be a shinier image among laymen. Not that that counts for nothing, but it doesn't affect legal hiring. Also, if you take a look at the raw score spread between the T6, Columbia is +1 compared to NYU and -3 compared to Chicago, which has definitely pulled ahead in the last few years. Again, I wish Columbia were better, but it doesn't seem so at this point.

Pretty sure everyone should take anything Wild Card says about NYU with a grain of salt.

On what grounds? Who are you and what do you know?

Also, the score ranges I provided are incorrect. They are

170/172/174 for Columbia
and
167/170/172 for NYU

I have summer associate class lists from the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018, so I can easily show that Columbia outperforms NYU. Alternatively, just look at the threads here. If it hurts your feelings less, I also assert that NYU places significantly better than the rest of the T14 due to its reputation and location; at the same time, Columbia simply places better than NYU--and its students are much higher quality, if you assume that there's some relationship between LSAT score and "quality."

objctnyrhnr wrote:

Wild Card wrote:My T25 is

T14
+
15. Vandy
16. WUSTL
17. Texas
18. UCLA
19. Fordham
20. USC
21. BC
22. Illinois
23. Notre Dame
24. BU
25. GWU

As mentioned, applicants shouldn't treat BigLaw as a monolith of jobs. From the perspective of just basic life choices, I wouldn't go on an "all BigLaw jobs are the same" approach without considering location. Schools like BC, BU, WUSTL, and Fordham that place well regionally should be treated as such. I assume few of the non-T14 schools listed (save GWU) place very well in DC BigLaw, for instance, whereas a few lower-ranked schools with lower BigLaw numbers probably place disproportionately well in DC relative to these schools. You should probably go to the latter if you're interested in DC only and can get into both schools. You will likely save money on tuition in case you don't get a BigLaw offer and will at least have an easier avenue into that market for other jobs.

IMO, desired practice location should drive every decision outside of the T14. Rankings really obscure how regional most schools outside the T14 actually are, which is a shame given the debt people take on for these schools.

Wubbles wrote:

TFALAWL wrote:Obviously biased as an alum, but I’ve felt that USNWR tends to underrate UVA. When I was there we were tied at 7 with Penn, and I always felt and still feel that Penn/UVA/NYU should be tied for 6.

I understand the other two schools have better BigLawFedclerk numbers, and are undeniably a tad tougher to get into.

But Fedclerking and BL are not equal accomplishments — UVA arguably H/S/CH with its numbers there.

And UVA has more alums in Fed Gov by headcount (correct me if I’m wrong) than any other school.

But as one of the posters said — this is just about silly school pride, no one should choose Penn over UVA or Vice versa based solely on ranking.

Thus, you could say UVA is the NYU of

Of... of... of what?!?

Federal government haha my bad

Wild Card wrote:

nixy wrote:

BrainsyK wrote:

Wild Card wrote:The very best firms (V20ish) may hire an equal number of CLS and NYU grads, but there are ~400 enrolled at CLS and ~500 at NYU (likewise, YLS crushes HLS in proportional representation).

And if you look at the LSAT ranges of CLS and NYU

170/172/174 and 167/170/174

it's hard to deny that CLS is one level above NYU, in terms of student quality.

Eh, the difference in class size btw the two is closer to ~50 than it is ~100, and given year to year fluctuations, I'd have a hard time drawing any conclusions. I'd like Columbia to be better than NYU since I go here, but the only advantage at this point seems to be a shinier image among laymen. Not that that counts for nothing, but it doesn't affect legal hiring. Also, if you take a look at the raw score spread between the T6, Columbia is +1 compared to NYU and -3 compared to Chicago, which has definitely pulled ahead in the last few years. Again, I wish Columbia were better, but it doesn't seem so at this point.

Pretty sure everyone should take anything Wild Card says about NYU with a grain of salt.

On what grounds? Who are you and what do you know?

Also, the score ranges I provided are incorrect. They are

170/172/174 for Columbia
and
167/170/172 for NYU

I have summer associate class lists from the Classes of 2016, 2017, and 2018, so I can easily show that Columbia outperforms NYU. Alternatively, just look at the threads here. If it hurts your feelings less, I also assert that NYU places significantly better than the rest of the T14 due to its reputation and location; at the same time, Columbia simply places better than NYU--and its students are much higher quality, if you assume that there's some relationship between LSAT score and "quality."

I just read a lot of posts on this site, and you consistently trash/troll NYU. I don’t have any dog in the fight (I went to neither school), I’m sure you know NYU much better than I do, and I’m sure you have the numbers to prove Columbia outperforms NYU in terms of placement. You just seem to trash NYU/NYU students at every opportunity.

(Also I’m just amused by the sentiment that Columbia students are “much higher quality” based on 2-3 points difference on the LSAT. FWIW, NYU’s GPA 75th and median are higher than Columbia’s. Parsing any of this finely enough to say that Columbia students are “much” higher quality is just silly.)

TBF I didn’t mean to suggest your comments about placement were wrong so I probably should have said to take everything you say about NYU *students* with a grain of salt.

TFALAWL wrote:

Wubbles wrote:

TFALAWL wrote:Obviously biased as an alum, but I’ve felt that USNWR tends to underrate UVA. When I was there we were tied at 7 with Penn, and I always felt and still feel that Penn/UVA/NYU should be tied for 6.

I understand the other two schools have better BigLawFedclerk numbers, and are undeniably a tad tougher to get into.

But Fedclerking and BL are not equal accomplishments — UVA arguably H/S/CH with its numbers there.

And UVA has more alums in Fed Gov by headcount (correct me if I’m wrong) than any other school.

But as one of the posters said — this is just about silly school pride, no one should choose Penn over UVA or Vice versa based solely on ranking.

Thus, you could say UVA is the NYU of

Of... of... of what?!?

Federal government haha my bad

Had us going there man

cavalier1138 wrote:

HangingAround wrote:I did this 11 months ago and maybe the preliminary numbers changed or I got my math wrong but it had
UNC at ~31%

http://www.law.unc.edu/documents/career ... april6.pdf

I'm too lazy to look up the year-to-year specifics on clerkships, but that looks like a one-year aberration for UNC's numbers. Not that they don't have decent biglaw+fedclerk for a regional school, but they usually hover around 20% big firm placement. And I'd wager that their 6% federal clerk number is an outlier. By comparison, Emory hasn't had much variation in its biglaw numbers, so it's been routinely placing 30%+ in biglaw/fedclerk.

If UNC keeps having good years like that, maybe it'll start to be a better choice for southbound law students than Emory, but one year isn't enough data to reach that conclusion. And it's a bit of a wash, because they're both regional schools serving different markets.

That's fair - I also noticed Emory was at just shy 32% so it's not like UNC actually did better than them. I was going off that 30% number from the original post. For UNC you're totally right, it was a 7% increase from the year before, and in the years I've followed it 24% or so is normal for UNC.

Anecdotally it seems like the 2018 grads and 2019 grads will be around 30% from the people who put together lists of these sorts of things, but we will see how that pans out.

Anony1234 wrote:
As mentioned, applicants shouldn't treat BigLaw as a monolith of jobs. From the perspective of just basic life choices, I wouldn't go on an "all BigLaw jobs are the same" approach without considering location. Schools like BC, BU, WUSTL, and Fordham that place well regionally should be treated as such.

Even though these schools place well regionally, they can't in any way be compared to a regional equivalent of a T-14. Just because a decent percentage of graduates will end up at large mid-law firms, those outcomes are not the same. And we're looking at their employment data at a market peak. If there's a downturn, that's where it will be felt hardest.

Anony1234 wrote: I assume few of the non-T14 schools listed (save GWU) place very well in DC BigLaw, for instance, whereas a few lower-ranked schools with lower BigLaw numbers probably place disproportionately well in DC relative to these schools. You should probably go to the latter if you're interested in DC only and can get into both schools. You will likely save money on tuition in case you don't get a BigLaw offer and will at least have an easier avenue into that market for other jobs.

UVA placed almost a quarter of its class in DC. Almost 70 students.
NYU sent 23 there.
Almost 15% of the Duke class of 2017 landed in VA,DC,MD or WV. The bulk of those are sure to be in the DC area as it's by far the largest market there.

The only reason to go to a significantly lower ranked school is if you're DC or bust to the point you'd rather not work, or would work for $50k/year rather than take employment elsewhere. The best DC jobs are available to any T-14 graduate with the numbers to get them, and those T-14 graduates will almost always outperform anyone at a lower ranked school in the DC vicinity.

Anony1234 wrote: IMO, desired practice location should drive every decision outside of the T14. Rankings really obscure how regional most schools outside the T14 actually are, which is a shame given the debt people take on for these schools.

Here, I agree. If you cannot attend a T-14 school, you should be laser focused on where your school places, and be happy spending your legal career in that region.

albanach wrote:The only reason to go to a significantly lower ranked school is if you're DC or bust to the point you'd rather not work, or would work for $50k/year rather than take employment elsewhere. The best DC jobs are available to any T-14 graduate with the numbers to get them, and those T-14 graduates will almost always outperform anyone at a lower ranked school in the DC vicinity.

I agree, but would further opine that if one is D.C. or bust to the extent you describe, one is likely better off not going to law school at all (maybe unless they get into Yale, or at most the T6). Being D.C. or bust to that extent suggests that one is more concerned about being in D.C. than about practicing law. There are many cheaper - and more assured - ways of landing employment in D.C. than law school.