Top Law Schools

Thanks for your replies.

I am a non traditional student over 45. When I was young (read 18-20) I got about 70 units of 2.0 quality work.

I completed all of my upper division work at a local State University with a 4.0. I also completed about 60 units of additional community college work with all A's with only one B in two. Perhaps 2. My GPA is presently a 3.4 blended, and I am continuing classes to move that up.

I will complete another 24 units of community college also with a 4.0 (yes, already see the path). I am adding about 63 units this summer to continue to bring it up. The cost of community college is not an issue, including text books.

Why? To raise the GPA so I can be as close to T3/T14 as possible.
Ideally Top 3.

Softs? I am without a doubt a URM. I am also a prior military service combat US Marine. I have not taken my LSAT, but will begin preparing for it in May.

What say you? At what point is the law of diminishing returns applicable? I noticed Yale took a 3.43 this year, even though their 25 percentile median is 3.83. My goal is to reduce the number of Favors and Asks I make of a University, particularly when I'd like a free ride if possible.

Lastly: Yes, I know the LSAT is important. I plan on making range for any of the schools I apply for, regardless of how much test prep I have to accomplish.

Feel free to provide as many qualified opionions as possible. Why T3, Why Law School over 45, I don't need help with that - simply the chances at T3 / T14.

Cheers!

have you graduated with a ba/bs at any time? Any credits added after your 1st bachelors is conferred are not counted. So this post was unclear, but it sounds like you graduated years ago. That is the GPA that counts. Any credits after that mean nothing.

Im sorry for the omission. No, i specifically left out one history class once I was cleared to graduate so I could continue accumulating credits at a community college. As soon as I file that history class, I will graduate.

Even if you get all those credits by the way, you are out at Yale. Yale isn't going to take lightly to clearly manipulating the system for an increase in GPA. I further think Stanford and H will obviously care. The chances of you getting into all three even best case with your GPA and a 180 lsat are 0% given your broader academic record.

sparkytrainer wrote:Even if you get all those credits by the way, you are out at Yale. Yale isn't going to take lightly to clearly manipulating the system for an increase in GPA. I further think Stanford and H will obviously care. The chances of you getting into all three even best case with your GPA and a 180 lsat are 0% given your broader academic record.

I doubt they would care very much about the "quality" of the credits. Poster meets the veteran "check the box", and the URM "check the box", with a great LSAT, they have a chance at the top 3. The low GPA number is a big hindrance, the fact many of those credits are from a CC is a tertiary concern at best.

Poster is very likely in at all of the T-14 outside the top 3 if they get an LSAT score close to or above those school's median. The top 3 is just kind of a crap shoot.

Wipfelder wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:Even if you get all those credits by the way, you are out at Yale. Yale isn't going to take lightly to clearly manipulating the system for an increase in GPA. I further think Stanford and H will obviously care. The chances of you getting into all three even best case with your GPA and a 180 lsat are 0% given your broader academic record.

I doubt they would care very much about the "quality" of the credits. Poster meets the veteran "check the box", and the URM "check the box", with a great LSAT, they have a chance at the top 3. The low GPA number is a big hindrance, the fact many of those credits are from a CC is a tertiary concern at best.

Poster is very likely in at all of the T-14 outside the top 3 if they get an LSAT score close to or above those school's median. The top 3 is just kind of a crap shoot.

Actually, there is significant evidence that Yale and S at a minimum care about the quality of the credits. Yale and S build classes from prestigious schools where the applicant was a 3.9+ student at a top 10 undergraduate. The amount of law students at Yale with 60+ community college credits is going to be 0. Also, OP points out the low GPA Yale took. By all accounts that happened to be the GPA of some current Vice President's daughter. Unless OP is the child of someone at that level, the chances Yale reaches down for a sub 3.8 GPA, even for an URM, is 0%. I'm not hating, just trying to give realistic analysis.

The best bet for the top 3 is Harvard given the class size is almost triple Yale or Stanford's. But an URM with a 3.5 and a 174 is not a lock at H, they also have a GPA floor, albeit a softer one.

Actually, there is significant evidence that Yale and S at a minimum care about the quality of the credits. Yale and S build classes from prestigious schools where the applicant was a 3.9+ student at a top 10 undergraduate. The amount of law students at Yale with 60+ community college credits is going to be 0. Also, OP points out the low GPA Yale took. By all accounts that happened to be the GPA of some current Vice President's daughter. Unless OP is the child of someone at that level, the chances Yale reaches down for a sub 3.8 GPA, even for an URM, is 0%. I'm not hating, just trying to give realistic analysis.

The best bet for the top 3 is Harvard given the class size is almost triple Yale or Stanford's. But an URM with a 3.5 and a 174 is not a lock at H, they also have a GPA floor, albeit a softer one.[/quote]

This post is objectively wrong. Yale is probably out, but not because of some elitist disregard for CC classes. Yale simply gets so many students applying with numbers above their medians that softs have to play a much bigger factor. Sparkytrainer purports the existence of "significant evidence," yet offers none. In fact, they offer a bogus conspiracy theory about how Mike Pence's daughter got into Yale. They also claim that Yale takes no one with a GPA below 3.8. Let me point you to actual evidence, which says otherwise.

Yale's entering class profile says that the 25% GPA was 4.83. For what sparky says to be true, 25% of Yale's entering class has to have a GPA between 3.80 and 3.83. The thought of that is absurd. While the OP's GPA still probably precludes him from Yale, I think he still has a chance. I furthermore want to debunk this claim that Yale only takes from top 10 schools. People go to CC and lower ranked colleges from plenty of reasons, especially cost. Most community colleges have fine academics. There are plenty CCs that have more rigorous courses than some 4-year colleges. Here, too, I want to provide some significant evidence. Yale's entering class profile lists 73 different undergraduate institutions. A number of these institutions are outside the top 10. 63, in fact.

Further clarification from OP:
Bad GPA was from 1985-1989. Early on, OP was member / president of the Honor Society. Mother had cancer.
1990 OP took a nice all paid expense vacation to a sandy place in the Middle East courtesy of Uncle Sam.

OP then went on to a career in the single most aggressive sales organization in the world.
OP's brother was a victim of some interesting circumstances, making OP choose Law School.

The Credit stuffing isn't fivolous; OP's major is Criminology / Administration of Justice. Originally OP was going to take a major of Economics / Business Law. Most of the credits were AA completion in that realm; OP changed his mind, and decided to move to Administration of Justice. OP also has a background in Computer Science, which is where some of the recent credits came from. Why? OP may choose to do the Patent Bar. Rules of Evidence, Forensics, Corretional Law, Law Enforcement Writing, Real Estate Law, Real Estate Finance, Gangs, Criminal Theory, Criminal Diversity, Logic, Business, Accounting...would that seem frivolous to anyone?

Okay, so referring to yourself in the 3rd person is weird.

But it sounds like you'll be able to make a compelling case for why your more recent courses are more representative of your potential ability to succeed in law school, and anecdotally some non-trads have reported out-performing their very old GPAs. If you get a very high LSAT you'll be a splitter, and splitters' cycles are inherently unpredictable (does the school need your LSAT to maintain medians? how under their 25th percentile is your GPA?). So I can't give you any chances - you need to actually go get the high LSAT score, come back (and then likely write a compelling application and see what happens).

Fair enough.

Some of you were referring to "OP" as though if I didn't start the thread and wasn't present, so I continued the thread as such.

In March of last year I had 70 or so Community College and no degree. A year later, I have a couple of Associates, I'll claim the bachelor's in Summer (only because I delayed graduating to improve GPA), and I will have completed the LSAT while working full time. I personally think that the amount of work put into this project was not triviial at all; it surprises me that the logic is that law schools only care about GPA and not as much origin and content. My undergrad work was chemistry, physics, biology, geography; currently it's Criminal Justice / Law / Economics and the like. We'll see where I land...

My question was really aimed at...by improving the GPA, I saw it as a mechanism to fall within a school's median, thus not asking for a favor by not having admission look the other way on my old GPA. By the time I graduate, I will comfortably have a 3.6/3.7/3.8 depending on how many classes i choose to take or not take; we're talking about 180/190 semester units IN TOTAL including the 70 from 3 years ago, where 140 for a dual bachelor's is not uncommon and my graduation would have happened at 150/160 due to a change in major.

Thank you again for all your help - please keep your opinions coming. Again, the hope is T3, and your collective point seems to be to score a high LSAT. By high LSAT you're implying merely within their medians, is what I seem to get...and I'm not sure how much of a splitter I will really be when Harvard's 25% MEDIAN sits at 3.76. (God! Boston. Do I *really* want to live in Boston again???)

If Yale wouldn't have me, I was really hoping Stanford...

If you’re below their 25th percentile in GPA (I don’t know what a 25% median is), and above their 75th percentile LSAT, you’re a splitter for that school (here, Harvard, if you get the LSAT score you’re aiming for). It doesn’t mean your GPA is bad and it doesn’t mean they won’t accept you, it just means it’s hard to predict (or harder than usual. Yale and Stanford are particularly hard bc high numbers on their own won’t get you in the door).

Yale and Stanford might care somewhat about the kind of courses you take, but they don’t get to annotate GPAs with majors/institutions when they report them to USNWR. So most schools don’t care except on the margins.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you have the makings of a good application. I don’t think the community college thing will matter much. It’s just hard to gauge chances without a final GPA and LSAT score.

If your major is criminal justice, that is more concerning. While law schools don't really care where you get the credits or what degree you get, criminal justice is one of the few majors that get discounted by law schools. If you look at the average LSAT scores by major, "prelaw" and criminal justice are at the very bottom. Furthermore, most criminal justice programs have rampant grade inflation, and a lot of people who choose these majors do so because they don't want to put in the work necessary/can't succeed in more rigorous majors. For these reasons, if a significant amount of your more recent credits are criminal justice related, I would be very surprised if you get in at a top 6 school. You could still get into a T14, but even that becomes more of a stretch.

DerKatze wrote:If your major is criminal justice, that is more concerning. While law schools don't really care where you get the credits or what degree you get, criminal justice is one of the few majors that get discounted by law schools. If you look at the average LSAT scores by major, "prelaw" and criminal justice are at the very bottom. Furthermore, most criminal justice programs have rampant grade inflation, and a lot of people who choose these majors do so because they don't want to put in the work necessary/can't succeed in more rigorous majors. For these reasons, if a significant amount of your more recent credits are criminal justice related, I would be very surprised if you get in at a top 6 school. You could still get into a T14, but even that becomes more of a stretch.

Do you have any proof that CJ majors get discounted by law schools? This seems ridiculous.

Wipfelder wrote:Do you have any proof that CJ majors get discounted by law schools? This seems ridiculous.

Yes, of course, and I would be happy to share it with you all. With the caveat that I am not an admissions officer and am only reporting what other people say--but what other people say on this issue makes plenty of sense. Of course most of this evidence will come from ATL, TLS, etc., which one can reasonably take issue with, but sense we're already on TLS...

https://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/dont-ma ... hool/?rf=1

An Above The Law article from 2009 with the title "Don't Major in Criminal Justice If You Want to Go to Law School." The reason for this--according to the article--is that Criminal Justice majors have the lowest average LSAT score of any major. I understand that being a criminal justice major doesn't really cause someone to have a lower LSAT, and would be moot if the OP gets a high LSAT score, but this is still important.

https://lawschooli.com/best-majors-for-law-school/

This is a Lawschooli article that says basically the same thing, but the author goes on to say: "Now I agree with other commentators this is likely explained by self-selection." But it also explains that "Criminal Justice and pre-law majors typically carry rampant grade inflation."

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... s-some-say

Here is a USNews article that tries to be more objective, and give both sides. It provides evidence that my previous post, while not universally accepted, is widely shared enough to be the subject of a USNews article

http://www.businessinsider.com/qualific ... ols-2013-7

Here's a quote from one of those always-correct, Harvard Law educated law school "experts" in Business Insider: "But don't major in criminal justice. "Law schools don't consider it academically rigorous," Levine said. "Choose something that requires research, serious thought, and analysis" — like political science, or philosophy."

http://legalcareerpath.com/best-majors- ... lications/

This is a Legal Career Path article which explains what the best majors for law school are and why Criminal Justice isn't one of them. I am not entirely sure what the organization is, but it was written by a practicing lawyer and if there's a financial incentive, it's less obvious.

Again, I recognize that my assertion is not universally accepted and that these aren't the most authoritative sources, but they are authoritative enough to provide substantial evidence. Furthermore, my claim wasn't just that CJ gets discounted itself, but that stuffing credits with CJ would be particularly frowned upon. If an adcom sees that the OP did poorly in college when he was younger, and is going back to college and stuffing his GPA with lots of 4.0 CJ credits--there seems to be a real possibility that they discount the 4.0 as the OP choosing an easy major to bring his GPA up.

The problem I pointed out isn't just that CJ gets discounted, but that the OP did really poorly in another major and is doing really well in CJ, so combined with the major's reputation of not being academically rigorous, there seems to be good evidence to suspect (rightly or wrongly) that CJ at the OP's school is similar. I also stated that he could still get into a T14, just probably not HYSCCN.

DerKatze wrote:

Wipfelder wrote:Do you have any proof that CJ majors get discounted by law schools? This seems ridiculous.

Yes, of course, and I would be happy to share it with you all. With the caveat that I am not an admissions officer and am only reporting what other people say--but what other people say on this issue makes plenty of sense. Of course most of this evidence will come from ATL, TLS, etc., which one can reasonably take issue with, but sense we're already on TLS...

https://abovethelaw.com/2009/09/dont-ma ... hool/?rf=1

An Above The Law article from 2009 with the title "Don't Major in Criminal Justice If You Want to Go to Law School." The reason for this--according to the article--is that Criminal Justice majors have the lowest average LSAT score of any major. I understand that being a criminal justice major doesn't really cause someone to have a lower LSAT, and would be moot if the OP gets a high LSAT score, but this is still important.

https://lawschooli.com/best-majors-for-law-school/

This is a Lawschooli article that says basically the same thing, but the author goes on to say: "Now I agree with other commentators this is likely explained by self-selection." But it also explains that "Criminal Justice and pre-law majors typically carry rampant grade inflation."

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-g ... s-some-say

Here is a USNews article that tries to be more objective, and give BOTH SIDES. It provides evidence that my previous post, while not universally accepted, is widely shared enough to be the subject of a USNews article

http://www.businessinsider.com/qualific ... ols-2013-7

Here's a quote from one of those always-correct, Harvard Law educated law school "experts" in Business Insider: "But don't major in criminal justice. "Law schools don't consider it academically rigorous," Levine said. "Choose something that requires research, serious thought, and analysis" — like political science, or philosophy."

http://legalcareerpath.com/best-majors- ... lications/

This is a Legal Career Path article which explains what the best majors for law school are and why Criminal Justice isn't one of them. I am not entirely sure what the organization is, but it was written by a practicing lawyer and if there's a financial incentive, it's less obvious.

Again, I recognize that my assertion is not universally accepted and that these aren't the most authoritative sources, but they are authoritative enough to provide substantial evidence. Furthermore, my claim wasn't just that CJ gets discounted itself, but that stuffing credits with CJ would be particularly frowned upon. If an adcom sees that the OP did poorly in college when he was younger, and is going back to college and stuffing his GPA with lots of 4.0 CJ credits--there seems to be a real possibility that they discount the 4.0 as the OP choosing an easy major to bring his GPA up.

The problem I pointed out isn't just that CJ gets discounted, but that the OP did really poorly in another major and is doing really well in CJ, so combined with the major's reputation of not being academically rigorous, there seems to be good evidence to suspect (rightly or wrongly) that CJ at the OP's school is similar. I also stated that he could still get into a T14, just probably not HYSCCN.

But do any of these say admissions officers discount GPA's of CJ majors? I get the lower LSAT average, but that is a separate subject, LSAT scores are a very strong prediction of LS admissions success. I still don't believe a school would reject a CJ major over another major at the cost of their GPA or LSAT medians shifting. HYS have that luxury

Wipfelder wrote:But do any of these say admissions officers discount GPA's of CJ majors? I get the lower LSAT average, but that is a separate subject, LSAT scores are a very strong prediction of LS admissions success. I still don't believe a school would reject a CJ major over another major at the cost of their GPA or LSAT medians shifting. HYS have that luxury

The Business Insider and Lawschooli ones. Again, I'm not trying to say that CJ gets discounted per se, but that the major has such a reputation for grade inflation that someone who got poor grades before then gets good grades in CJ classes is liable to having their particular CJ classes/grades discounted. Although the Business Insider article is arguing that they get discounted regardless--but that doesn't matter, because I'm not going that far.

DerKatze wrote:

Wipfelder wrote:But do any of these say admissions officers discount GPA's of CJ majors? I get the lower LSAT average, but that is a separate subject, LSAT scores are a very strong prediction of LS admissions success. I still don't believe a school would reject a CJ major over another major at the cost of their GPA or LSAT medians shifting. HYS have that luxury

The Business Insider and Lawschooli ones. Again, I'm not trying to say that CJ gets discounted per se, but that the major has such a reputation for grade inflation that someone who got poor grades before then gets good grades in CJ classes is liable to having their particular CJ classes/grades discounted. Although the Business Insider article is arguing that they get discounted regardless--but that doesn't matter, because I'm not going that far.

No, no they don't.

Wipfelder wrote:No, no they don't.

I'm sorry, but to say this you must not understand what I am saying. The Lawschooli article spends a solid 8 paragraphs arguing almost exactly what I've been arguing, which I'll post in this spoiler.

[+] Spoiler

IF YOUR SCHOOL HAS A PRE-LAW OR CRIMINAL JUSTICE MAJOR, DON’T DO IT. The hard evidence out there is that pre-law and criminal justice majors do worse on the LSAT and have worse outcomes when applying to law school

[...] Now I agree with other commentators this is likely explained by self-selection. The theory is that poor test takers tend to choose these majors in abundance and this same group would score low on the LSAT even if they chose a different major. Under that theory, it’s not the major itself that’s causing the poor performance, but, no matter the explanation, they are clearly under-performing.

[...] Further, Criminal Justice and pre-law majors typically carry rampant grade inflation, so a law school admissions department might be inclined to discount a good GPA you receive in such a program slightly. Although Ann Levine, a former admissions dean and an expert in these matters, states that these majors wouldn’t cause any bias against you, she does state that you had better not get a low GPA in these majors. This indicates a belief that these are considered easy majors, such that doing great in them won’t be any real credit to you, and doing poorly is a big strike. [UPDATE: Ann just got quoted in Business Insider saying, “Law schools don’t consider [the criminal justice major]academically rigorous,” so I guess the gloves are off at least with respect to criminal justice.]

Grade inflation (and the attendant possibility that your GPA gets discounted slightly) is a problem for most humanities majors, but I would hazard a guess that it is worse for pre-law and criminal studies majors. While any discounting effect is likely to be very small, (law schools care more about your GPA number than where it came from and how you got it) it might affect you on the margins, especially at the very best law schools.

The Business Insider one is a much smaller point in a wider-reaching topic, yes, but I provided the supporting quote previously. The fact that someone's major is CJ is only going to affect someone on the margin, so I agree with you that a school won't "reject a CJ major over another major at the cost of their GPA or LSAT medians shifting." But that's not what I was saying.

The OP has a 3.4, with 130 credits, plus however many credits his "upper division work" is. If we assume his upper division work is 30 credits, then the credits he plans to add are a little more than half of what he already has. So at best, he's going to bring his GPA up to mid 3.6. This is below the median of every T14 school. We have no clue what his LSAT is. The only reason he has a chance at most schools is that he is a veteran URM. But he's also someone who will have enough credits to have two bachelors degrees, because he put off taking one required course to stuff his GPA with CJ courses. The Lawschooli article explains in great length that CJ has a reputation for grade inflation, which combined with the OP's manner of credit stuffing, could possibly be enough for lower ranked T14 schools to reject him.

Regardless, it is evident that the OP is no longer paying attention to this thread. I was (and am generally) willing to provide evidence and further clarify my statements, particularly when trying to provide advice to people. However, it seems we've gotten to a point where you just disagree with what I am saying, which is fine, but I don't think this is a debate that's worth having anymore.

The article doesn't say that adcomms look down on/discount CJ majors. It says that CJ majors have lower LSAT scores and worse outcomes, and the former would easily explain the latter. The rest of the article speculates and hedges and also states what everyone here says:

a law school admissions department might be inclined to discount a good GPA you receive in such a program slightly

Although Ann Levine, a former admissions dean and an expert in these matters, states that these majors wouldn’t cause any bias against you, she does state that you had better not get a low GPA in these majors

(you had better not get a low GPA in any major, though)

I would hazard a guess that it is worse for pre-law and criminal studies majors. While any discounting effect is likely to be very small, (law schools care more about your GPA number than where it came from and how you got it) it might affect you on the margins, especially at the very best law schools.

sparkytrainer wrote:

Wipfelder wrote:

sparkytrainer wrote:Even if you get all those credits by the way, you are out at Yale. Yale isn't going to take lightly to clearly manipulating the system for an increase in GPA.I further think Stanford and H will obviously care. [/color]The[/size] chances of you getting into all three even best case with your GPA and a 180 lsat are 0% given your broader academic record.

I doubt they would care very much about the "quality" of the credits. Poster meets the veteran "check the box", and the URM "check the box", with a great LSAT, they have a chance at the top 3. The low GPA number is a big hindrance, the fact many of those credits are from a CC is a tertiary concern at best.

Poster is very likely in at all of the T-14 outside the top 3 if they get an LSAT score close to or above those school's median. The top 3 is just kind of a crap shoot.

Actually, there is significant evidence that Yale and S at a minimum care about the quality of the credits. Yale and S build classes from prestigious schools where the applicant was a 3.9+ student at a top 10 undergraduate. The amount of law students at Yale with 60+ community college credits is going to be 0. Also, OP points out the low GPA Yale took. By all accounts that happened to be the GPA of some current Vice President's daughter. Unless OP is the child of someone at that level, the chances Yale reaches down for a sub 3.8 GPA, even for an URM, is 0%. I'm not hating, just trying to give realistic analysis.

The best bet for the top 3 is Harvard given the class size is almost triple Yale or Stanford's. But an URM with a 3.5 and a 174 is not a lock at H, they also have a GPA floor, albeit a softer one.

Here's official statements from Harvard and Stanford:
Harvard:
Thank you for your interest in Harvard Law School.

There is no disadvantage if an applicant attends a community college prior to transferring to a four year college. Please let our office know if you have any questions.

Best,

J.D. Admissions


Stanford:
Thank you for your email. It is not a disadvantage having transferred to your undergraduate school from a community college. We do not have a preference of universitites attended.

Please let us know if you have any questions.

Sincerely,

Stanford Law School

and the rest of T14:


(University of Chicago Law School)

No.

University of Chicago Law School

Admissions Office

1111 East 60th Street

Library Tower 306

Chicago, IL 60637

773-702-9484 - Phone

773-834-0942 - Fax

admissions@law.uchicago.edu

http://www.law.uchicago.edu

(NYU School of Law)

Dear prospective applicant,

Thank you for your email. The Committee on Admissions makes decisions after considering all the information in an application. It reviews the undergraduate transcript closely, with attention to such factors as trends in the applicant’s grades, class rank, the ratio of pass/fail to graded courses, the diversity and depth of course work, and the length of time since graduation. Factors other than undergraduate grades and LSAT scores may be particularly significant for applicants who have experienced educational or socio-economic disadvantage. The Committee evaluates work experience and extracurricular and community activity for evidence of advancement, leadership, and capacity for assuming responsibility. A recommendation letter is particularly valuable when the writer provides substantive information about the applicant’s abilities, activities, and personal qualities. Since the Committee does not interview candidates, the personal statement provides an opportunity for the applicant to supplement the information provided in the application.

Thank you for your interest in NYU School of Law.

Sincerely,

Office of Admissions

NYU School of Law



(UC Berkeley School of Law, Boalt Hall)

No disadvantage.

Berkeley Law Admissions Office

2850 Telegraph Avenue, Suite 500

Berkeley, CA 94705-7220

(510) 642-2274

(510) 643-6222 fax

http://www.law.berkeley.edu


(university of pennsylvania law school)

Thank you for your message and interest in Penn Law. It is not uncommon for applicants to have been enrolled in a community college, and we make no blanket assumptions as to a candidate's academic record or strength in that regard.

Best regards,

Penn Law Admissions

https://www.law.upenn.edu/

http://www.facebook.com/pennlaw


(The University of Michigan Law School)

Thank you for your interest in Michigan Law. We are pleased to hear you’re considering applying. We regularly see applicants who start their coursework at a community college, and there is no disadvantage to doing so. We do require that you have a bachelor’s degree prior to beginning law school. Please note that even though you transferred, we do require transcripts from all institutions that you have attended, including community colleges.

Please feel free to contact us with any questions or concerns.

Best,

Lindsey

--

Lindsey Stetson

Assistant Director of Admissions

The University of Michigan Law School

726 Oakland Avenue

Ann Arbor, MI 48104

Tel 734.764.0537

Fax 734.647.3218

http://www.law.umich.edu



(Duke University School of Law)


Dear Prospective Applicant:

We appreciate your interest in Duke Law School. It would not

disadvantage your application if you transfer to a four-year institution

after attending a community college program. Diversity enriches the

educational experience of all our students. We seek to admit students

from different academic, cultural, social, ethnic, and economic

backgrounds.

Visit our website at http://www.law.duke.edu/admis/faq to find the

answers to the most common questions.

Sincerely,

Robin Holman

Assistant Director of Admissions

for Operations

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Office of Admissions

Duke University School of Law

Science Drive & Towerview Road

Box 90393 / Durham NC 27708-0393

phone: 919-613-7020

email: admissions@law.duke.edu

web: http://www.law.duke.edu/admis



(Northwestern University Law School)

There is no disadvantage to starting at a community college. Thank you.



(University of Virginia Law School)

None whatsoever. Many of our students have spent some time in community college. It’s very common.

Cordel Faulk

Director of Admissions

University of Virginia

School of Law

580 Massie Road

Charlottesville, Virginia 22903-1738

phone: 434.924.4869 fax: 434.982.2128

web: http://www.law.virginia.edu/admissions



(Cornell Law School)


Hello, and thank you for your email.

We will be primarily interested in your academic performance, regardless of the institution attended.

Best wishes,

Connie M. Pendergast

Administrative Assistant

Cornell Law School

Admissions Office

226 Myron Taylor Hall

Ithaca, NY 14853

607.255-5141



(Georgetown University's Law Center)

Thank you for your email. The Admissions Committee does take into account the undergraduate institution you graduated from as well as the classes you completed. If you did well at the community college and took difficult courses, this should not have a significant affect on the decision of your application. I hope this information is helpful. Please let me know if you have further questions.

Sincerely,

Lindsey Monson

Admissions Assistant, GEORGETOWN LAW

From: Admissions Office

Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 9:20 AM

To: Lindsey G. Monson

Subject: FW: Dear Georgetown University Law Center Office

Office of Admissions

Georgetown University Law Center

600 New Jersey Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20001 202-662-9010

DerKatze wrote:

Wipfelder wrote:No, no they don't.

...Regardless, it is evident that the OP is no longer paying attention to this thread. I was (and am generally) willing to provide evidence and further clarify my statements, particularly when trying to provide advice to people. However, it seems we've gotten to a point where you just disagree with what I am saying, which is fine, but I don't think this is a debate that's worth having anymore.

Bad assumption. I'm still here. And I appreciate the qualified, competent debate.

I obtained around 79 original "bad gpa" credits in the community college at roughly a 2.0 GPA...27 years ago. There was an academic renewal that brought this to a 2.65, though LSAC will not care. Chemistry, physics, calculus, and a mother with cancer.

I am currently sitting at:

Units Toward GPA: Taken 145.500 Passed 145.500 = GPA 4.000 (GPA AT CSU, 48 Units Cumulative CSU GPA 3.402 (more transcripts not yet received by CSU).

CUMULATIVE TOTALS UA UE GP GPA

CAMPUS 48.0 48.0 192.0 (4.00) <---UC Upper Division Classes exclusively

TRANSFER 97.5 84.0 303.0 (3.11) <-- this includes the crappy grades. These numbers will change substantially.

TOTAL 145.5 132.0 495.0 (3.40)

This does not reflect another 21 units taken this semester already graded at a 4.0. This turns the GPA into an approximately blended 3.48, not counting the LSAC hit for the Academic Renewal.

It also fails to reflect another 12 units they don't see as complete...my one B in all these classes - which brings the total GPA to 3.4957/3.5ish.

This brings the grand total of units to an additional 33, or 188.8, of which 79 or so were taken 27 years ago. By the time classes are done, I will have completed roughly 120 or so semester units (not counting this summer's classes, if I opt to continue) in about one year and a summer.

The recent Community College classes are NOT comedy or art; they were micro and macro economics, accounting, real estate, psychology and all others required for the major, etc. I was planning on an Economic / Business Law major, until I decided on criminal justice.

I do have the "pending history class" along with another 40 or so units at a community college that I had planned on taking this summer. Accounting, a number of classes to complete California's Real Estate brokerage requirements, and some philosophy courses. I can graduate anytime I forward my transcript with the history class to the university.

Many on this forum discuss writing an addenda that will ask the admissions committee to "ignore" older GPAs, to mention that it is not representative of my current skillset, etc. I am currently personally offended at the complete and total dilution of GPA's in colleges across the board; many teachers who have become friends game the system, and students do as well. As an instructor, they can agree to use book X from Sage, Wiley, CENGAGE, take your pick, and along with that they get the question bank, lesson plans, presentations, etc; teachers become human grade administrators in an otherwise automated process rather than anything else. I learned in my recent college experience how broadly students cheat with Quizlet, Study Blue, Chegg and more. Recently I read an article about how over 40% of grades received are A's these days. I accept that grade inflation is a matter of fact, that both faculty and students cheat the system, and that as a prospective law student I am caught in the middle of making the best of it.

That said, the game says UNDERGRADUATE GPA is king regardless of major or school attended (for 40% of the overall evaluation, anyway); great, my recent 120 units of college work are almost 4.0. The game also says admissions has the option to ignore my previous GPA - OK, great! Though I don't know to what extent. The game says me being Mexican counts to some, and a combat veteran to others. Perfect, for 10% of the equation. If institutions stop looking at an Undergraduate GPA at time of Bachelor's Degree issuance, I can and have added more credits. I've shared the numbers with all of you here. With all this discussion around ABA disclosures of Percentiles, Medians and entry classes, I imagine every school likes to groom their range...and by having a better GPA (though inflated by additional Community College classes), I am asking for fewer favors overall.

My goal is a free ride at T13. Yes, I know my LSAT is next - and I will approach it as I have my college education recently.

I do appreciate your collective opinions.

nixy wrote:The article doesn't say that adcomms look down on/discount CJ majors. It says that CJ majors have lower LSAT scores and worse outcomes, and the former would easily explain the latter.

Wipfelder wrote:No, no they don't.

I agree that my first post on the matter was not correct. After Wipfelder asked for evidence, the bottom two paragraphs of my response were closer to what I had originally intended to argue, but that argument is radically less expansive than what I first said, and what you seem to be arguing against, nixy. I mean to say that doing poorly in one major, then switching to CJ and doing better, creates a real possibility at the top 3 or 6 law schools that admissions officers will not overlook/be slightly harsher on an older, lower GPA. For people who have low GPAs even with their newer credits, like the OP, an adcom at the very top schools not overlooking their below median GPA increases the likelihood of being rejected, particularly when the extra credits you take add up to an entire bachelor's degree on its own.

nixy wrote:

a law school admissions department might be inclined to discount a good GPA you receive in such a program slightly

This is for the average student. Part of what I am saying is that someone who receives bad grades in a seemingly more academically rigorous major then does well in CJ is more likely to have this happen, and not that it necessarily will happen.

nixy wrote:

Although Ann Levine, a former admissions dean and an expert in these matters, states that these majors wouldn’t cause any bias against you, she does state that you had better not get a low GPA in these majors

(you had better not get a low GPA in any major, though)

Nice selective quoting. It's beautiful. If you look at the sentence after, the same Ann Levine says that "Law schools don’t consider [the criminal justice major] academically rigorous,” leading the author to say "so I guess the gloves are off at least with respect to criminal justice.]" I was relying on this second sentence, because it evidently supersedes the part you decided to include. Additionally, the OP has gotten a low GPA in a major, which changes the situation completely anyway.

nixy wrote:

I would hazard a guess that it is worse for pre-law and criminal studies majors. While any discounting effect is likely to be very small, (law schools care more about your GPA number than where it came from and how you got it) it might affect you on the margins, especially at the very best law schools.

I'm only arguing about the top 3, maybe top 6 schools. I said in my first post on the subject that the OP can still get into the rest of the T14, so we are only debating about very few schools. One of these schools (Yale) considers it a huge black stain if one of your essays has a single typo (according to the Ask Asha blog). I would think gaming the admissions system by taking a second bachelor's degree worth of credits extra might possibly be even more of a black stain.


-----------------------------------
Regardless,

glbtrottr wrote:Bad assumption. I'm still here. And I appreciate the qualified, competent debate.

Good to hear you're still listening . My concerns about your CJ major are moot; it seems you have done well in a large number of excellent courses. Your extenuating circumstances during your 2.0 quality work (your mom's cancer) would be enough to put on as an addendum to a semester or two even if you were a traditional student. Just putting that out there.

glbtrottr wrote:My goal is a free ride at T13. Yes, I know my LSAT is next - and I will approach it as I have my college education recently.

HYS don't give merit aid anyway, so it sounds like it's not a big loss if you don't get into one of those schools. I think this is definitely doable, particularly at Northwestern or UVA. The 25th percentile GPA for both these schools is 3.56, so I think getting your GPA there is a pretty good, attainable place to be (and would reduce the number of favors you would be asking), considering your circumstances--which means you should still take the extra 40 credits. I believe a 4.0 in all 40 credits would lead to a 3.58, which would satisfy this recommendation. In any case, good luck!

DerKatze wrote:

nixy wrote:

Although Ann Levine, a former admissions dean and an expert in these matters, states that these majors wouldn’t cause any bias against you, she does state that you had better not get a low GPA in these majors

(you had better not get a low GPA in any major, though)

Nice selective quoting. It's beautiful. If you look at the sentence after, the same Ann Levine says that "Law schools don’t consider [the criminal justice major] academically rigorous,” leading the author to say "so I guess the gloves are off at least with respect to criminal justice.]" I was relying on this second sentence, because it evidently supersedes the part you decided to include. Additionally, the OP has gotten a low GPA in a major, which changes the situation completely anyway.

The fact that the author wrote the second sentence after the first doesn't mean it actually supersedes the whole "these majors won't cause any bias against you" - taken as a whole I think the main point is "doing well in any major is good; doing badly in a major that isn't seen as academically rigorous is bad."