When to Take the Money and Run? Forum

[call-me-bubbles]

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[BlendedUnicorn]

Would white collar defense trial law be considered a "unicorn" job?

No.

[Nebby]

Would white collar defense trial law be considered a "unicorn" job?

No. That's like all you do in the white collar practice at every big law firm, of which there are hundreds.

[Nebby]

Hijacking for a hot minute, but are unicorn goals/jobs achievable from Chicago? I know the traditional line of thought is "unicorn = YSH" and vice-versa, but is the "cut-off," so to speak, that strict? Or is it possible that some of that unicorny goodness might trickle down to the plebs at Chicago?

Follow-up: what qualifies as a "unicorn" job that might only be achievable from HYS? does BigFed/Honors Program count or not rare/competitive enough?

BigFed/Honors are absolutely achievable from CCN type schools. I don't think there's a single legal job that isn't.

So are unicorn jobs just defined as highly preftigious, hard-to-come-by, non-legal (but still presumably related to law/policy/politics) jobs?

I think the best definition of "unicorn" job is just any job for which there are relatively few entry-level positions that hire annually. Problem is, none of these jobs are exclusive to HYS.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Would white collar defense trial law be considered a "unicorn" job?

No. That's like all you do in the white collar practice at every big law firm, of which there are hundreds.

Well the word "trial" is a complicating factor.

Off the top of my head, a few unicorn jobs:

Legal office of the state department
Litigator for ACLU or other prestige national advocacy group
SCOTUS practice group at a firm (maybe appellate lit more generally)
International human rights (whatever WT is doing)
Maybe law professor in today's hiring climate?

Not sure what else there is. Obviously heavily dependent on personal preference.

Like Nebby said, none of these are remotely exclusive to HYS.

[BlendedUnicorn]

Hijacking for a hot minute, but are unicorn goals/jobs achievable from Chicago? I know the traditional line of thought is "unicorn = YSH" and vice-versa, but is the "cut-off," so to speak, that strict? Or is it possible that some of that unicorny goodness might trickle down to the plebs at Chicago?

Follow-up: what qualifies as a "unicorn" job that might only be achievable from HYS? does BigFed/Honors Program count or not rare/competitive enough?

BigFed/Honors are absolutely achievable from CCN type schools. I don't think there's a single legal job that isn't.

So are unicorn jobs just defined as highly preftigious, hard-to-come-by, non-legal (but still presumably related to law/policy/politics) jobs?

I think the best definition of "unicorn" job is just any job for which there are relatively few entry-level positions that hire annually. Problem is, none of these jobs are exclusive to HYS.

Right. The key insight isn't legal vs non-legal, it's that the entire idea of a category of jobs that are highly desireable and exclusively available to HYS kids is made up.

[Nebby]

That gets us back to the intangible benefit of having YLS on your twitter bio. You can get mad hunnies brah

[BlendedUnicorn]

That gets us back to the intangible benefit of having YLS on your twitter bio. You can get mad hunnies brah

Nothing drops ps like that magic law d.

[Nebby]

Is $300k in debt to work at the same law firm alongside your Hammy-colleague tangible or intangible?

[Nebby]

"I wanted to do prestigious PI, and went to YLS for the connections. I went to a law firm to pay off the debt, and never ended up in PI because the law firm paycheck created an incompatible lifestyle with PI salary. Now I've spent the last 50 years defending tobacco companies and Shell."

- YLS grad on his deathbed

[WinterComing]

This...might come as a shock to you...but pretty much every T14 has plenty of alums all over the legal world. It would be dumb to argue that if you want to do BIG NBA you have to go to Chicago because Adam Silver's a Chicago Law alum and it would be dumb to argue that if you want to do BIG NHL you have to go to NYU because Gary Bettman's an NYU Law alum but that's essentially the essence of the long term argument for HYS>$$$ at a comparable T14. Basically for just about any job imaginable a T14 degree will be prestigious enough to get your foot in the door and then it's going to come down to your experience and your interviews. Sure, occasionally it will help to be a Yale alum. But the same holds true for any other school (and you can debate endlessly whether it helps more to have a bigger alumni network but also more people trying to tap into it or a relatively smaller one).

There's a reason virtually every practicing lawyer here would recommend taking the money. Once you get that first job your school stops being all that important.

The one exception is probably SCOTUS Justice but the odds of that happening are basically 0% anyway.

e. which isn't to suggest that, say, Yale doesn't have a better alumni network than other t14 schools. But it's almost certainly not $100,000 better-especially if you're debt financing and that money represents freedom to take career risks.

I think a lot of what you wrote is a straw man that doesn't really respond to what I said (if I had made the arguments you mention about sports, I would agree they were dumb), but a couple of more points anyway:

1. To say that any job is achievable from any T-14 school, or to say that jobs aren't "exclusive" to HYS, is really oversimplifying. Of course that's true, but if all that matters if having at least a 1 percent chance at a given job, why stop at the T-14? Just among associates whose last name starts with A, Skadden has folks from Temple, Seton Hall, Cardozo, Nebraska, Tulane... Of course, I bet you would tell someone dead set on a job at Skadden to go to Cornell on a partial scholarship over a free ride at Temple. Why? All of the same jobs are achievable from both schools, after all.

Well, of course, what you've ignored is that the PERCENTAGE CHANCE of achieving those jobs from the respective schools is much different. So yes, someone can get a job at DOJ Civil Rights from any T-14; they can get a job at the ACLU from any T-14; they can get a job at WLRK from any T-14. But ex ante, when you don't know what kind of grades you're going to get, your chances at those jobs is much better from Yale. Maybe that's not worth $100,000. Most people who actually have the opportunity to make that decision disagree with you. Maybe they all regret their decisions. I guess we'll see when I'm a wise practicing lawyer like you.

2. To say that the only exception is SCOTUS justice is ridiculous. Another much more reasonable and attainable example is federal court clerk. Yes, that's only a one-year job. And no, people probably shouldn't choose a school only based on that. But there are plenty of legal desirable jobs for which a clerkship is valuable and considering one's chances of getting a clerkship from different schools is not idiotic.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I didn't talk about clerkship because a: the EV discussion upthread covered it and b: you were talking about the flaws of using 9 month employment statistics.

[WinterComing]

I didn't talk about clerkship because a: the EV discussion upthread covered it and b: you were talking about the flaws of using 9 month employment statistics.

I would include clerkships in the flaws of 9-month statistics. I think the numbers at Yale are that roughly 1/3 of students show up as clerking in the 9-month data, whereas more like 50 percent actually clerk within five years. Some judges only hire people a year or two out.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I didn't talk about clerkship because a: the EV discussion upthread covered it and b: you were talking about the flaws of using 9 month employment statistics.

I would include clerkships in the flaws of 9-month statistics. I think the numbers at Yale are that roughly 1/3 of students show up as clerking in the 9-month data, whereas more like 50 percent actually clerk within five years. Some judges only hire people a year or two out.

Right but that's not only a Yale problem. if the contention is more Yale students clerk after a year or two than from other schools then, well, citation needed.

[WinterComing]

I didn't talk about clerkship because a: the EV discussion upthread covered it and b: you were talking about the flaws of using 9 month employment statistics.

I would include clerkships in the flaws of 9-month statistics. I think the numbers at Yale are that roughly 1/3 of students show up as clerking in the 9-month data, whereas more like 50 percent actually clerk within five years. Some judges only hire people a year or two out.

Right but that's not only a Yale problem. if the contention is more Yale students clerk after a year or two than from other schools then, well, citation needed.

My contention, as I said in my first post, is that we don't know, and that therefore it is really impossible to say what value a Yale degree might have down the line. Your response to that was something about Adam Silver, I recall.

[WinterComing]

I probably haven't been very clear about my overall position here, so just to clarify: I am not saying that it's smart for someone to turn down a full ride at CCN for HYS. I am saying that some of the arguments you're making about why anyone who goes to HYS in that situation is an idiot are a bit oversimplified or are based on potentially misleading data. I don't have better data, and I don't think anyone really does. Thus, my conclusion is that it's impossible to know for sure.

[BlendedUnicorn]

I probably haven't been very clear about my overall position here, so just to clarify: I am not saying that it's smart for someone to turn down a full ride at CCN for HYS. I am saying that some of the arguments you're making about why anyone who goes to HYS in that situation is an idiot are a bit oversimplified or are based on potentially misleading data. I don't have better data, and I don't think anyone really does. Thus, my conclusion is that it's impossible to know for sure.

Fair, and my contention isn't to call anyone an idiot though I recognize I don't always come off that way. But a few things drive my thinking:

1: Relative value of a degree rapidly diminishes over time. To use clerkships as an example, many people who do end up clerking after a few years out are able to use connections at their firm or job to get an in with a judge. While there's no doubt that Yale lawyers will still have an advantage over Chicago lawyers 2 years out, that advantage will be smaller than it was when the JD was the only relevant thing on the resume and the connections made in law school were the only relevant ones available. This applies to other desirable jobs as well.

2: Being debt free is the ultimate form of flexibility, and flexibility can free you up to take risks. One of the biggest drivers of misery in biglaw is that people feel trapped by it. They get used to a lifestyle, they have to pay down debt, and as a result the world of options available to them shrinks. I once worked with an AUSA who told me he wouldn't be able to afford it if his wife weren't a private sector lawyer. While marry rich is one 100% credited solution to the debt problem, so is not having debt to begin with.

3. Law school tuition has gotten out of control, but so has gamesmanship of the system by the non-HYS schools. I have no doubt that at one point in the not too distant past, going to HYS made more sense than taking the money. But as the number of scholarships has increased and the price of sticker has gone through the roof, the price difference has become- IMO- unjustifiable. You won't hear this from many alum, however, because even relative recent graduates (let's say pre-recession) were looking at a very different financial calculus.

4. For every rule, there are exceptions. Take the money is my go to advice but I'm sure there are circumstances where it's better not to. I just don't think those circumstances include a general desire to do something prestigious.

[WinterComing]

Thanks for explaining your thinking. That all makes perfect sense to me.

Everyone feel free to go back to making fun of each other.

[Nebby]

Thanks for explaining your thinking. That all makes perfect sense to me.

Everyone feel free to go back to making fun of each other.

Thank you. My natural environment is meaningless banter and you posing substantive questions with an earnestness to learn was cramping my style

<3

[tinman]

A couple points related to the difference in cost between YLS and other awesome schools:
1. Yale's tuition is 60K per year, so 180K for three years. Unless you are getting room and board included in your scholarships at other top schools, the difference between YLS at sticker and a full tuition scholarship at another school should be around 180K. Total debt might be close to 300K from YLS. But it should be the difference in debt that's the focus, and that difference is going to be around 180K at most.
2. As I mentioned in another post, it would be pretty easy to have a job while attending YLS (whether TAing, RAing, or whatever). I'm not sure that's true of other schools. I think it would be pretty easy to make 10K per semester, which brings the difference between YLS and other schools down 60K.
3. The cost of living is lower in New Haven than many other places. This reduces the difference is total cost of attendance.
4. It may be easier to get a summer job at a firm 1L summer from Yale than from other places. I'm not sure the going rate for such summer jobs, but I'm guessing its around 15-25K.
5. If your loans are covered by YLS's loan forgiveness program, that's a huge benefit. YLS's loan repayment means you can teach high school after law school and get all your loans paid by YLS. How much is that sort of flexibility worth?

At the end, I think it's pretty reasonable that the difference in debt load between YLS at sticker and full tuition schoolship at a place like Columbia is around 100K. That's still a ton of money. But it's not 300K.

Benefits after graduation:
I think most people in this thread are assuming the job options from places like Columbia are similar to those from YLS. I just don't think that's true. Sure, most people at CLS can get a firm job that pays NYC market rate. But how much is it worth to give yourself a boost in getting all kinds of jobs: the exact firm you want, a clerkship, a government job, a private interest job, an academic job? Is it worth 20K? 50K? 100K? It must be worth something.
How much is it worth to have a super low-stress 1L year at YLS?

Anyway, I didn't really even like YLS that much. I've studied at two other universities before law school, and I had a much better time at both. But I'm glad I didn't have to go through the ringer at a school like CLS, worrying about being the top of the class and making law review and whatever. That sounds like it would suck. I think being able to chill in law school has made me way more resistant in big law, and more likely to stay longer. Is that a good thing? Maybe not. But it certainly helps with the debt load.

[Rigo]

So unrelated but whenever this thread gets bumped, I always start singing Radiohead in my mind.

[+] Spoiler

[youtube]q-Nymir3q34[/youtube]
Take the money and run
Take the money

Ahh to be in middle/high school again.

[Nebby]

Benefits after graduation:
I think most people in this thread are assuming the job options from places like Columbia are similar to those from YLS. I just don't think that's true.

Evidence is not on your side, friend.

[Stimpy]

Does anyone have insight on how you would characterize any differences in the teaching style or the way of legal thinking taught at HLS v YLS v SLS v UCHI? Or can refer a thread that discusses this?