WILL A MEDIOCRE UNDERGRAD HINDER CHANCES AT A T14 LAW SCHOOL? Forum

[gwillygecko]

It wont matter if you have a 178 and 4.0.

If you have a low 170 and a 3.8, then it will definitely matter.

(is a 0L)

why the edit? i liked your original post better when you called me a dumbass.

I was trying to be nice.

But you are a dumbass and your opinion is dumb too (and contrary to all evidence on the subject)

Yeah ok. Im a dumbass for positing that quality of ugrad is a factor in admission decisions.

[gwillygecko]

Several people in this thread agree with me that it's yet another nebulous "soft" factor in admissions:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... p?t=244687

It's pretty important. Nearly half of my class went to an Ivy. Most went to Ivy or Stanford/Duke/Chicago (I'm a 3L at Y)

100% irrelevant.

I disagree to some extent.


There are a lot of people at SLS from elite undergrads. Feels like a decent chunk more than there are from state UG (although maybe I just notice more because I'm a state UG). I don't know how much of that is just a correlation (arguing that people likely to get into SLS as high schoolers are more likely to go to elite schools for UG) versus an advantage, but it feels like the latter.

That said, there are also pleeeeeenty of people from non-Ivy, non-East Coast Liberal Arts schools. There are a decent number of us from state UG across the country.

Perhaps more importantly, Stanford definitely seems to prefer people from California. LOTS of USC/UCLA/Cal/other California UG like Claremont, Occidental, etc...

Someone above me called it a "decent soft." I think that's a good way to put it. By no means necessary, but anecdotally seems to help.

I'm going to be this person.

I'd argue that having an Ivy undergrad on your transcript makes the admissions game a bit easier. My undergrad's career/grad school office put together a PDF of the average stats our graduates had to be accepted/matriculate to law schools, and they indicate there is generally a lower GPA/LSAT threshold. The differences are definitely smaller when it comes to HYS, but… to my quick, amateur glance, are still present.

But they're all dumbasses too, right Nebby?

Go fuck yourself. And unlike you, Im not going to "be nice" and edit out my snarky insults.

[Nebby]

lol

Little big for your britches, boy. I'd ask if you know what the difference between correlation and causation is but I'm pretty sure you're too fucking dumb to understand--as evinced by this paltry "evidence" you're linking me to.

Yes, they are also dumbasses.

Nice double-post, buddy.

[gwillygecko]

lol

Little big for your britches, boy. I'd ask if you know what the difference between correlation and causation is but I'm pretty sure you're too fucking dumb to understand--as evinced by this paltry "evidence" you're linking me to.

Yes, they are also dumbasses.

Nice double-post, buddy.

The quotes were just to show that there are people who went to YS that agree that it's likely a soft, and one of them even points out that applicants from his ivy ugrad "outperformed" their lsat/gpa index.

But you got me. I'm way too stupid to understand any words with more than two syllables. It's too bad your law school didn't teach you how to debate properly. Here's a clue: anything other than pointing out errors or omissions in the other person's facts or logic is an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. I don't know why's it's so hard to admit that ugrad "quality" could be a soft factor, but I guess it's just because I'm too dumb to understand!

[Nebby]

lol

Little big for your britches, boy. I'd ask if you know what the difference between correlation and causation is but I'm pretty sure you're too fucking dumb to understand--as evinced by this paltry "evidence" you're linking me to.

Yes, they are also dumbasses.

Nice double-post, buddy.

You got me. I'm way too stupid to understand any words with more than two syllables. It's too bad your law school didn't teach you how to debate properly. Here's a clue: anything other than pointing out errors or omissions in the other person's facts or logic is an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. I don't know why's it's so hard to admit that ugrad "quality" could be a soft factor, but I guess it's just because I'm too dumb to understand!

Sure!

[chargers21]

If you are 100% in on law school, then go to the cheapest good UG, major in something (preferably just 1 major) that you enjoy and is notorious for easy grading at the school (like education, psychology, gender studies, etc. not stem). Research every class and professor before signing up to get the best GPA boosters you can when possible. Kill it. Kill the LSAT. Shred admissions and go to a steeply discounted t13

[dbalkaran]

Sometimes I wish that I had gone to a community college for my first 2 years and had taken that 4.0 GPA to a state school (and major in communications or gender studies)...law schools give zero shits where you went and what you majored in, they just look at numbers, unfortunately

However, you should be mindful that if you choose to go to the "mediocre" school, you're kind of placing all of your eggs into the "i'm going to law school basket." You don't want to end up in a situation where in your junior year, you want to do consulting and are in a severe disadvantage by being enrolled in Cal State Fullerton instead of Berkeley, NYU, ND, etc.

This.

You're very young and the best thing you can do right now is go to the best school that you can afford. Regardless of what some people would have you believe Harvard isn't using any special textbooks that aren't available to other colleges, you go to top universities for the connections you make while there. Crush your undergrad (wherever you go) and aim for that 4.0 GPA so you have tons of options available post-grad. Heck, in four years you might not even want to be a lawyer anymore, but a 4.0 GPA will still open doors for you.

[Mullens]

It wont matter if you have a 178 and 4.0.

If you have a low 170 and a 3.8, then it will definitely matter.

Heres a fact:schools that have "black box" admissions(yale, stanford, columbia, chicago, upenn), that otherwise arent fully explainable by lsat/gpa, are targeting grads of elite schools.

Like, here's the thing: your undergrad might matter minimally (and I mean like 1% of the calculus) at places like Yale and Stanford but it's not worth chasing those unicorns as a high school senior when it'll cost you $100k in debt and there's almost no chance you end up in a situation where you're one of the few people who's UG helps them. I also don't think the schools listed are the ones that would give any discernible boost. We're more talking HYSPMit and not Notre Dame. The schools OP listed are good schools but I don't think they are the type of schools that matter.

So I guess you're technically right at the margins but not in any way that impacts OP.

[CorporateLaw]

The biggest problem with going to St. Mary's is explaining to everyone what the heck a "Gael" is.

Ah, yes. Another problem is that I will probably piss off all of the really traditional Catholics there and they might crucify me.

[KissMyAxe]

I think you've heard mostly good advice thus far. Most of the T13 do not have the luxury of choosing based on undergrad if they want to maintain their rankings. Because of that, they only care about numbers to boost their ranking. I do not know about Stanford, but it seems they only care about you having as close to a 4.33 GPA wherever you do go. As some already said, at YLS, it might come into play. There are a small handful of professors who openly discriminate against state school students. Because any one of them could easily torpedo your application alone, it's more than the 1% of the calculus Mullens mentioned. However, for those few, your prestigious schools aren't good enough either, so I wouldn't lose sleep. One of YLS' most famous professors has said repeatedly that they should only be admitting students from HYP undergrad, because even the lesser Ivies need too much remedial help. But you also have a really good chance at missing them, and getting someone who views you holistically. Admission there is similar to feeder clerkships in a lot of ways, you have to do everything right, but then also get really lucky. And in the end it's not a big deal. So I really would not do anything based on YLS. I see no benefit of attending Davis or one of the others vs. St. Mary's. Go wherever you'll have the most money/be happiest.

If you achieve a 3.8+ GPA, a great LSAT (173 +), and do these unique extracurriculurs (I'm curious of what these would be) and internships, I'd expect you to likely get into at least 12 of the T13, with a decent chance at a sweep. Also, I think everyone "plans" to have perfect grades, a near perfect LSAT, have unique activities, and score great jobs. Things have a way of not happening the way you plan, so I think this is way too premature.

[Nebby]

Please tell me that professor has never practiced because then it would be perfect

[KissMyAxe]

Please tell me that professor has never practiced because then it would be perfect

It's Yale, only like 5 of them actually did. (So, no, they never practiced)

[Thomas Hagan, ESQ.]

It wont matter if you have a 178 and 4.0.

If you have a low 170 and a 3.8, then it will definitely matter.

(is a 0L)

why the edit? i liked your original post better when you called me a dumbass.

I was trying to be nice.

But you are a dumbass and your opinion is dumb too (and contrary to all evidence on the subject)

Yeah ok. Im a dumbass for positing that quality of ugrad is a factor in admission decisions.

It "definitely" won't matter, I know plenty of people that went to T13s that came from T3 schools. Law schools have no reason to care about UG...A 3.8/170 at UC Riverside will get you a better chance at HLS than someone with a 3.6/170 at Columbia.

[CorporateLaw]

I think you've heard mostly good advice thus far. Most of the T13 do not have the luxury of choosing based on undergrad if they want to maintain their rankings. Because of that, they only care about numbers to boost their ranking. I do not know about Stanford, but it seems they only care about you having as close to a 4.33 GPA wherever you do go. As some already said, at YLS, it might come into play. There are a small handful of professors who openly discriminate against state school students. Because any one of them could easily torpedo your application alone, it's more than the 1% of the calculus Mullens mentioned. However, for those few, your prestigious schools aren't good enough either, so I wouldn't lose sleep. One of YLS' most famous professors has said repeatedly that they should only be admitting students from HYP undergrad, because even the lesser Ivies need too much remedial help. But you also have a really good chance at missing them, and getting someone who views you holistically. Admission there is similar to feeder clerkships in a lot of ways, you have to do everything right, but then also get really lucky. And in the end it's not a big deal. So I really would not do anything based on YLS. I see no benefit of attending Davis or one of the others vs. St. Mary's. Go wherever you'll have the most money/be happiest.

If you achieve a 3.8+ GPA, a great LSAT (173 +), and do these unique extracurriculurs (I'm curious of what these would be) and internships, I'd expect you to likely get into at least 12 of the T13, with a decent chance at a sweep. Also, I think everyone "plans" to have perfect grades, a near perfect LSAT, have unique activities, and score great jobs. Things have a way of not happening the way you plan, so I think this is way too premature.

Very informative, thank you. And yeah, I wish I knew what those unique e.c's were too. As much as I would like to believe that my academic record will be as stellar as my high school, I've realized thats probably not going to be the case. Friends of mine that went to Cornell, who were in the same advanced program as me (the IB), have even said they wish they could have their high school gpa again. On the bright side, if all else fails I can always become a fashion designer for parrots- I've heard its in demand.

[KissMyAxe]

I think you've heard mostly good advice thus far. Most of the T13 do not have the luxury of choosing based on undergrad if they want to maintain their rankings. Because of that, they only care about numbers to boost their ranking. I do not know about Stanford, but it seems they only care about you having as close to a 4.33 GPA wherever you do go. As some already said, at YLS, it might come into play. There are a small handful of professors who openly discriminate against state school students. Because any one of them could easily torpedo your application alone, it's more than the 1% of the calculus Mullens mentioned. However, for those few, your prestigious schools aren't good enough either, so I wouldn't lose sleep. One of YLS' most famous professors has said repeatedly that they should only be admitting students from HYP undergrad, because even the lesser Ivies need too much remedial help. But you also have a really good chance at missing them, and getting someone who views you holistically. Admission there is similar to feeder clerkships in a lot of ways, you have to do everything right, but then also get really lucky. And in the end it's not a big deal. So I really would not do anything based on YLS. I see no benefit of attending Davis or one of the others vs. St. Mary's. Go wherever you'll have the most money/be happiest.

If you achieve a 3.8+ GPA, a great LSAT (173 +), and do these unique extracurriculurs (I'm curious of what these would be) and internships, I'd expect you to likely get into at least 12 of the T13, with a decent chance at a sweep. Also, I think everyone "plans" to have perfect grades, a near perfect LSAT, have unique activities, and score great jobs. Things have a way of not happening the way you plan, so I think this is way too premature.

Very informative, thank you. And yeah, I wish I knew what those unique e.c's were too. As much as I would like to believe that my academic record will be as stellar as my high school, I've realized thats probably not going to be the case. Friends of mine that went to Cornell, who were in the same advanced program as me (the IB), have even said they wish they could have their high school gpa again. On the bright side, if all else fails I can always become a fashion designer for parrots- I've heard its in demand.

Live the dream, haha. But I'm not saying it won't be the case. My college GPA was higher than my high school GPA since I worked harder there. But you're still a long way off, and might find a career far more interesting to you in the meantime, so don't schedule your life around law school admissions. Enjoy life, and if things shake out that way, do it then.

[TFALAWL]

If I could go back, I would've done ROTC at best school I got into -- UG debt free. Then, four years active duty (that helps with admissions, but more importantly, w/ the job hunt, especially clerking/govt. Finally, go to law school for free, using the G.I. Bill.

Also, good job on thinking ahead and trying to plan accordingly. My only recommendation is that you still have an open mind in college: practicing law is great, but you might find something better for you (or, at the very least, you will not regret going to LS knowing you explored other options).

Lastly, based on the UG's you mentioned, I would choose Cal -- but I'm a Cali native and went to a UC-school.

[AJordan]

If I could go back, I would've done ROTC at best school I got into -- UG debt free. Then, four years active duty (that helps with admissions, but more importantly, w/ the job hunt, especially clerking/govt. Finally, go to law school for free, using the G.I. Bill.

Also, good job on thinking ahead and trying to plan accordingly. My only recommendation is that you still have an open mind in college: practicing law is great, but you might find something better for you (or, at the very least, you will not regret going to LS knowing you explored other options).

Lastly, based on the UG's you mentioned, I would choose Cal -- but I'm a Cali native and went to a UC-school.

There's another, easier route as well which I wouldn't recommend but it's there nonetheless. Do your undergrad however you want and then enlist into a service doing a job you like and will be good at. Do three years and then take the GI bill to law school. Being an enlisted soldier entails far less pressure than being an officer. Also if you hate it it's much easier to just get by day to day doing exactly as you're told. again, don't join unless you'd be happy serving the military, but that option is there as well. It's much closer to what I did.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Like, here's the thing: your undergrad might matter minimally (and I mean like 1% of the calculus) at places like Yale and Stanford but it's not worth chasing those unicorns as a high school senior when it'll cost you $100k in debt and there's almost no chance you end up in a situation where you're one of the few people who's UG helps them. I also don't think the schools listed are the ones that would give any discernible boost. We're more talking HYSPMit and not Notre Dame. The schools OP listed are good schools but I don't think they are the type of schools that matter.

So I guess you're technically right at the margins but not in any way that impacts OP.

I agree with this - the OP has listed excellent schools, but I'm not sure they're part of that very top tier that might move the needle a tiny bit.

Also, while I get the argument that a small cadre of elite schools add a little boost, I think there is still a correlation/causation issue. That particular cohort of schools excels and getting their students shiny shiny star experiences (and to be fair, tend to admit/attract super overachieving types). To the extent those students overperform their numbers, it's not at all clear to me that it's simply because they went to HYP, as opposed to what they did when they were there. Those benefits could still accrue to OP by providing the opportunity to get those experiences, but they can also get a high GPA/LSAT without going into debt and get admitted that way (maybe not at YS. But you can't ever bank on those). It also makes sense to me that there are more HYP students at top schools because that's where they're all trained to want to go, so they apply - I doubt vast numbers of St. Mary's students are shooting for HYS law.

[addie1412]

I've seen better than expected results on LSN from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford and MIT level schools. Like 173/3.55 non URM, KJD getting into HLS. So nothing too crazy still. But yeah, the schools you mentioned won't be the ones giving you a boost if a boost exists

[Nonconsecutive]

Started at a very meh community college, went to a meh state school, got all of the T14 except Y. You'll be fine.

Your account says your GPA was a 1.1....why do I have a feeling that I am being trolled?

Wow, I forgot about all that stuff.

[theothercat]

I have a high 160s LSAT, a 4.0 GPA from a very irrelevant state school and my cycle has gone super well (in at most T14s, including all of CCN, still waiting on H&S). You can make up for what a mediocre university might subtract from your application tenfold with good work experience, an insightful PS, and good LORs.

[us3rnam3]

Not gunna lie I didn't read all of the other posts so sorry if i'm repeating someone elses points but I grew up near saint mary's and it is a decent school for undergrad nothing to really look down on. Furthermore, I was in the same position as you where I decided between going to the best school i got into and taking out loans or going to a mediocore undergrad for real cheap. I chose to go to the better school and take out loans. I don't even have the words to describe how much of a mistake that was. Please go to the cheaper school get involved while you're there and get really high grades you will be fine.

[YBF-W]

Not enough for it to be a determining factor in where you go to school. Taking out huge amounts in loans only for undergrad will not prove to be worthwhile.

Instead, go somewhere that lets you shine (via opportunities and resources offered) and aim to stand out amongst your peers. Part of what law school looks for is how you compare with your peers because they will see how your school does generally on the LSAT and which percentile your gpa/lsat falls into, relative to your peers.

Also maybe this is not intuitive, but go somewhere that will give you a good chance to pursue other interests besides law school. Perhaps evaluate your chances at getting internships in fields you'd enjoy, job prospects (check out linkedins of alumni), or even organizations doing work that piques your interests and study abroad. These types of things enrich your experience such that you have more to offer substantively besides your LSAT and GPA to law schools.

Quite frankly, the latter point is also important because you may change your mind about law school. There's no reason to preemptively restrict your ideas about what you want to do before or while in undergrad. Even if you don't change your mind, but decide you want to work for a year or more after undergrad, you'll still need a job and it would very much help if your school helps you be competitive in the job market.

[BigZuck]

I have a high 160s LSAT, a 4.0 GPA from a very irrelevant state school and my cycle has gone super well (in at most T14s, including all of CCN, still waiting on H&S). You can make up for what a mediocre university might subtract from your application tenfold with good work experience, an insightful PS, and good LORs.

You don't even need good work experience, PS or LOR. None of that stuff really matters unless maybe you just NEED to get into Yale or Stanford. All that matters is LSAT/GPA. That's it!

[Nebby]

I have a high 160s LSAT, a 4.0 GPA from a very irrelevant state school and my cycle has gone super well (in at most T14s, including all of CCN, still waiting on H&S). You can make up for what a mediocre university might subtract from your application tenfold with good work experience, an insightful PS, and good LORs.

You don't even need good work experience, PS or LOR. None of that stuff really matters unless maybe you just NEED to get into Yale or Stanford. All that matters is LSAT/GPA. That's it!

You are WRONG according to noted admissions scholar gwillygecko