Top Law Schools

Hey all.

Debating between Harvard and Chicago with money.

I might get a little need-based from Harvard (I'm broke, parents are non-rich enough that I got a ****load of need-based all through undergrad)

I'm honestly leaning towards not even trying for the full ride if I get into Harvard (obviously, that's not anywhere near guaranteed either). Is that incredibly stupid? It probably is, right? I know, consciously, that I'm letting my vanity get the better of my common sense and averseness to tremendous personal debt, but I just can't make those future payments real to myself.

Well, 100% of people with stats similar to yours got into Harvard in the last 4 years based on MyLSN. They will take anyone above both medians without fear of YP so to call a spade a spade: Congratulations on your Harvard acceptance. It's just a matter of time.

I think the anecdata is that Harvard gives up to about $$ for maximum need-aid, which would probably be about 100k. Since your parents income got you a lot of need-aid in undergrad, you'll probably get something decent for LS (a bit of a stretch of an assumption here).

The question is really, would you pay an extra 50k-80k to attend Harvard over University of Chicago?

I don't think that's a question that anyone can really answer without knowing more about what your goals are--and frankly, difficult to answer on your own if you don't know your goals. For reference, that translates to about $600-900 per month over 10 years.

Your numbers might put you into Ruby/Darrow/whatever a full ride at Columbia is called territory. I would just blanket the T14 if I were you and go to law school for free.

BrainsyK wrote:Well, 100% of people with stats similar to yours got into Harvard in the last 4 years based on MyLSN. They will take anyone above both medians without fear of YP so to call a spade a spade: Congratulations on your Harvard acceptance. It's just a matter of time.

I think the anecdata is that Harvard gives up to about $$ for maximum need-aid, which would probably be about 100k. Since your parents income got you a lot of need-aid in undergrad, you'll probably get something decent for LS (a bit of a stretch of an assumption here).

The question is really, would you pay an extra 50k-80k to attend Harvard over University of Chicago?

I don't think that's a question that anyone can really answer without knowing more about what your goals are--and frankly, difficult to answer on your own if you don't know your goals. For reference, that translates to about $600-900 per month over 10 years.

Hey, you just completely made my day. I've been using the "probability" calculators, and they all put Harvard as a "target" school or gave me like a 70% chance or whatever. I really thought that what with applying in January and a kind of iffy employment record I'd be almost a toss-up for Harvard.

And if I have a real shot at the Ruby with my numbers, I'd imagine that the Chicago Law Scholars (alumni only full ride) is guaranteed. Which is also great news.

This is unreal. Thanks so much for the input, guys/gals.

Goals-wise, I'm thinking about teaching (hard, I know), and if not that then working in the government (the unrealistic dream would be to clerk somewhere, work as an AUSA, work for the feds in some other capacity, and eventually maybe see if I couldn't become some flavor of federal judge somewhere). Harvard would make both of those paths easier than Chicago would, but since I'm not exactly on the money-trail the debt takes on a somewhat greater significance.

Normally I would say you would be crazy to take Harvard at sticker, but your goals would be easier from H (still tough). I still don't think it would be worth paying sticker vs. a full ride, but if the difference got down to say something like $50 or $60k then I think I might do that. Wait and see what you get from H. If you have a named scholarship from Chicago then that might be something that actually gets some leverage from H to give more money

trebekismyhero wrote:If you have a named scholarship from Chicago then that might be something that actually gets some leverage from H to give more money

HYS don't give merit aid, only need-based aid. Does H unofficially "reconsider" merit awards based on competing offers?

150K at Chicago is hard to turn down. Do you think you'd be likely to get it if you waited? Because were I you I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

.

totally not a brag thread. gee what I should I do should I goto LITERALLY ANY LAW SCHOOL I want. really mate. really.

Kinch08 wrote:

BrainsyK wrote:Well, 100% of people with stats similar to yours got into Harvard in the last 4 years based on MyLSN. They will take anyone above both medians without fear of YP so to call a spade a spade: Congratulations on your Harvard acceptance. It's just a matter of time.

I think the anecdata is that Harvard gives up to about $$ for maximum need-aid, which would probably be about 100k. Since your parents income got you a lot of need-aid in undergrad, you'll probably get something decent for LS (a bit of a stretch of an assumption here).

The question is really, would you pay an extra 50k-80k to attend Harvard over University of Chicago?

I don't think that's a question that anyone can really answer without knowing more about what your goals are--and frankly, difficult to answer on your own if you don't know your goals. For reference, that translates to about $600-900 per month over 10 years.

Hey, you just completely made my day. I've been using the "probability" calculators, and they all put Harvard as a "target" school or gave me like a 70% chance or whatever. I really thought that what with applying in January and a kind of iffy employment record I'd be almost a toss-up for Harvard.

And if I have a real shot at the Ruby with my numbers, I'd imagine that the Chicago Law Scholars (alumni only full ride) is guaranteed. Which is also great news.

This is unreal. Thanks so much for the input, guys/gals.

Goals-wise, I'm thinking about teaching (hard, I know), and if not that then working in the government (the unrealistic dream would be to clerk somewhere, work as an AUSA, work for the feds in some other capacity, and eventually maybe see if I couldn't become some flavor of federal judge somewhere). Harvard would make both of those paths easier than Chicago would, but since I'm not exactly on the money-trail the debt takes on a somewhat greater significance.

I never understand any of these threads. There is almost no situation in which it makes sense to take Harvard over $$$ at Chicago, and this is certainly not one of them.

There's almost no chance of you teaching or becoming a federal judge. It's so remote that basing your school choice off it is irrational. AUSA is plausible, and is about as likely from Chicago as it is from Harvard.

Edit: I want to shake the shit out of you 0L's sometimes.

WheninLaw wrote: I never understand any of these threads. There is almost no situation in which it makes sense to take Harvard over $$$ at Chicago, and this is certainly not one of them.

There's almost no chance of you teaching or becoming a federal judge. It's so remote that basing your school choice off it is irrational. AUSA is plausible, and is about as likely from Chicago as it is from Harvard.

Edit: I want to shake the shit out of you 0L's sometimes.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO DREAM MY DREAMS, YOU'RE NOT MY DAD

Unless... are you? You kinda sound like him. My God! Dad! Did you ever manage to get that pack of cigs?

jillian1776 wrote:totally not a brag thread. gee what I should I do should I goto LITERALLY ANY LAW SCHOOL I want. really mate. really.

Hey, man, brilliant people need advice too. Just not as much as you normies do.

Dcc617 wrote:150K at Chicago is hard to turn down. Do you think you'd be likely to get it if you waited? Because were I you I'd jump on that in a heartbeat.

I dunno.

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I've gone from "probably gonna go to Harvard because fuck future me" to "I really should be responsible and think about this because "150k" represents years of drudgery even though it doesn't look significant because it's just four characters when you write it down."

Kinch08 wrote:I really should be responsible and think about this because "150k" represents years of drudgery even though it doesn't look significant because it's just four characters when you write it down."

Yeah, this. If the debt payments don't feel real, imagine the years more of your life you'll spend formatting tables at 2 am. Don't follow what your heart wants now--follow what your heart will want in four or five years, which is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Honestly the kinds of things you want to do are just as achievable from Chicago as from Harvard. A tip top school is pretty important for academia, yes, but if you have to the ability to get there, Harvard isn't going to move the needle very much - it's mostly going to be on you and your individual drive/you publishing good work, which Chicago can help you do just as much as Harvard can. Harvard v. Chicago is really unlikely to make a difference for clerking or AUSA. And there are just way too many steps between law school and becoming a federal judge to say that Harvard is going to make a difference over Chicago for that goal, either (the short explanation is that it's a hugely political process and while a top school is great, what you do between graduating and trying to become a judge is going to be way more important; and while your school helps determine what you do, I don't think the options are that different between Chicago and HLS).

If you're paying the same for both go to whichever you prefer, but if you get big money at Chicago, go to Chicago. School name matters, definitely. But if you're someone who has what it takes to get into/succeed in academia and/or end up as a federal judge, the difference between Chicago and Harvard isn't going to matter.

(Disclaimer: not someone who went to/had the chance to go to either C or H, so make of the above what you will.)

jillian1776 wrote:totally not a brag thread. gee what I should I do should I goto LITERALLY ANY LAW SCHOOL I want. really mate. really.

Sucks to suck?

zeglo wrote:I don't think you'd be crazy. Harvard is great, especially for your goals (and not having "what if" moments). Chicago on the other hand would give more personalized attention, great academics still, and a much lower cost. Honestly, either is excellent. You're obviously intelligent and thoughtful, so I think you'll just have to reflect for a while. But I think you already know that your heart lies with going somewhere besides Chicago.

I think this is right (other than the "personalized attention," this is law school either way, not a LAC).

Don't know about H but if you want personalized attention at Chicago there's no shortage available. Most people would rather just keep their heads down in class and make it to graduation so they can cash their biglawl paycheck though.

Honestly I think you are likely to get the 150k at Chicago. A 3.87 from UChi is crazy high given what I know of their grading system (obviously you know this though). Combine that with a 174, and I doubt there are many (if any) UChi students applying to that scholarship that have better numbers than you. I would recommend waiting a cycle and trying for that; even if you don't get it (which seems unlikely), you will without a doubt be looking at very good money from the rest of the T14.

If you got a lot of finicial aid in undergrad you could potentially be paying the same to go to Harvard as you would to go to UC even with the 150k scholarship. I will graduate from HLS with around ~150k in debt because I'm poor and my family is poor. This dramatically changes the calculus everyone here is assuming.

cdotson2 wrote:If you got a lot of finicial aid in undergrad you could potentially be paying the same to go to Harvard as you would to go to UC even with the 150k scholarship. I will graduate from HLS with around 150k~ in debt because I'm poor and my family is poor. This dramatically changes the calculus everyone here is assuming.

Hls doesn't give 50k/yr in need based aid. Isn't the max ~30k/yr? Also, OP is a ruby/hamilton candidate, which are worth more like 200k total, iirc.

Clemenceau wrote:

cdotson2 wrote:If you got a lot of finicial aid in undergrad you could potentially be paying the same to go to Harvard as you would to go to UC even with the 150k scholarship. I will graduate from HLS with around 150k~ in debt because I'm poor and my family is poor. This dramatically changes the calculus everyone here is assuming.

Hls doesn't give 50k/yr in need based aid. Isn't the max ~30k/yr? Also, OP is a ruby/hamilton candidate, which are worth more like 200k total, iirc.

I get the max financial aid from HLS. They made me take out ~47k this year and they pay the rest of the COA. I already paid some back of what they made me take out because they over estimate COA. I will have around 150k in debt with tuition increases and interest minus what I pay back while in school. COA this year was ~88k so I basically got a 120k scholarship.

Kinch08 wrote:

WheninLaw wrote: I never understand any of these threads. There is almost no situation in which it makes sense to take Harvard over $$$ at Chicago, and this is certainly not one of them.

There's almost no chance of you teaching or becoming a federal judge. It's so remote that basing your school choice off it is irrational. AUSA is plausible, and is about as likely from Chicago as it is from Harvard.

Edit: I want to shake the shit out of you 0L's sometimes.

YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO DREAM MY DREAMS, YOU'RE NOT MY DAD

Unless... are you? You kinda sound like him. My God! Dad! Did you ever manage to get that pack of cigs?

You're not funny or edgy, lose the schtick before law school. Not saying you shouldn't dream big or aspire to great things. But you should recognize how remote those outcomes are, and not make a huge decision based on it.

And your dad sounds like a wise man.

I guess I should wait a year and try for the scholarship. My instinct is like "no you're bored out of your mind right now go do big things right away," but consciously I'm aware that 1L is not actually fun and I shouldn't be chomping at the bit for it.

I think my goals are fine and I have really safe carefully considered respectable backup options at every step of the way. Not worried about it.

I was in an almost identical position to the one you're looking at; I chose Chicago, and have never regretted it for a second. I'd certainly make the same decision over again. 2L here.

I would go to Chicago in this circumstance unless you get the cost delta to under $60k and you are willing to pay that much for a change in scenery. I get being over the same school but its a great school.