Law School Admission - Venting Forum

[Commander_Keen]

Edit:

Previously academically dismissed from law school. Missed out on 1.5 app cycles due to false information from an assistant dean at my former law school. Have a fourth-tier ls acceptance at ~$27k a year. LSAT's expiring. Parent is on my tail. Reputation is suffering.

Advice?

[lymenheimer]

I have a massive chip on my shoulder.

Two years ago, I was academically dismissed from law school. Yes, that's my responsibility, 100%. I don't put that on anyone else.

After dismissal, I was lied to and misled by a law school administrator (an assistant dean, ass. dean for short). Specifically, the ass. dean said they didn't write 505 letters, required by ABA rules during the 2014-2015 app cycle and required by some schools during the 2015-2016 app cycle even though the ABA changed their rules. The ass. dean lied to me, and I found out that my old law school issues 505 letters from a staff member at another law school. If the ass. dean knew the school issued 505 letters and lied to me, based on my understanding of the elements of fraud, that's fraud. If the ass. dean didn't know that the school issued 505 letters, that's still some type of negligence/fraudulent misrepresentation, but I don't know if there's a lawyer in this state that will take my case.

If she had told me the truth, I would have gotten a 505 letter asap, applied during the 2014-2015 cycle, and wouldn't have lost two years of my life feeling ridiculed and ostracized.

When you fail law school, the person who beats you up the most is yourself. Your reputation takes a massive hit. People ask what you're doing with your life, how law school is going, and what not. While I grew the balls to tell people what happened, that wasn't the easiest thing to do. My father was an alcoholic, and for a while in my life, I didn't think I would ever make it to college let alone prep for and enter law school. I worked my ass off as an undergraduate to prep for law school, and me earning the grades I did put all that work in the shitter. I was really tight with my law school class, two years of being away from everyone has taken its toll. I need to get back into law school and complete my degree to prove a point.

When you get academically dismissed from law school, the question is whether or not you have the capacity to complete a J.D. program. I have the capacity to complete a Juris Doctorate program, and I have to shove that in the face of everyone who has ever doubted me.

I have an LSAT score from October 2010 that is in the 91st percentile. Not the highest score on TLSF or for any applicant, but when you're dirt poor and have had to move around quite a bit, well, let me just say that I believe that stability helps a person properly prepare for the LSAT and score well. I do not want to take the exam again. I've received an offer of acceptance from one of the four schools to which I applied. Very few schools will take my LSAT score at this point, but that would have been different had I been able to apply during the 2014-2015 cycle. Also, it's very late in the application cycle for me to even consider that, if I were to apply to a second or third tier law school at this point in the cycle, an accepting school may extend some scholarship/grant money. That's just some of the opportunity that I've lost bc of not having that d*** 505 letter.

I have been accepted to a fourth-tier law school. The law school that dismissed me was ranked in the top 50 when I initially enrolled. I feel like a baller that's been demoted to the D-league, or like the lowest level of a baseball farm system. I feel like I went from almost at the Show to being Class A. I feel like everyone on this forum would tell me that this is a bad deal, that I either lack the finesse or am too rude to be lawyer, or that going to a fourth-tier law school is a bad idea.

But I still have something to prove.

If I offended anyone here, inc. mods (if any are on here), I apologize. That was not my intention - I just needed to get this off my chest in an environment of rational individuals that can provide some level of commentary. I'll probably take this post down at some point.

[Good Guy Gaud]

Tag

Good grief that's a lot of reading

[Commander_Keen]

lawl

[Commander_Keen]

Tag

Good grief that's a lot of reading

edited

[pancakes3]

what were your grades like that led you to fail and why do you think you're better suited to pass the second time around aside from having already taken the entire 1L curriculum already?

now that you're 3 years removed from undergrad and is ostensibly a fully grown adult, can't you provide the stability to fully prepare for the LSAT this time around?

don't you think you're letting inconsequential factors (ego, daddy issues, "judgment" from your friends and family) getting in the way of what's ultimately best for you - a retake, and more distance from your abject failure?

why do you want to be a lawyer and what kind of law do you think you're suited to practice? do you think you have a shot at getting that kind of job?

just asking because i know i wouldn't want to get legal advice from you based on your rant.

[Chuk_churuk]

Were you dismissed for cheating? If so, arent you worried that that might prevent you from bar admission?

The shame of intense failure is difficult to overcome. I've felt it before, and it made me angry and misguided. Letting those feelings control you is dangerous. My advice is be nicer to people and help them whenever possible. There is something psychologically rewarding about that.

I think getting a JD just to prove you can is not a good way to spend your time and money.

The assistant dean may very well have been lying to you, but pursuing legal action seems like a waste of time. What do you expect to get out of that?

[cavalier1138]

I'm not very well-versed in this process, but from the tiny bit of digging I did online, a couple of practical questions came up:

1. As already mentioned, was your academic dismissal for something other than just bad grades? My understanding is that most schools in the tier you said you went to don't fail students out except in extreme circumstances.

2. From what I found online, it seems like your prior school is not obligated to write an ABA 505 letter for you. So did the assistant dean tell you that the school didn't issue 505 letters because they were not capable of drafting them? Or did they tell you that the school would not provide a 505 letter in your specific circumstances? Most of what I found online is that an ABA 505 is specifically for when a student has been diagnosed with a learning disability after failing out. Again, this was limited research, so please correct me if I'm misunderstanding the circumstances.

[Commander_Keen]

Were you dismissed for cheating? If so, arent you worried that that might prevent you from bar admission?

The shame of intense failure is difficult to overcome. I've felt it before, and it made me angry and misguided. Letting those feelings control you is dangerous. My advice is be nicer to people and help them whenever possible. There is something psychologically rewarding about that.

I think getting a JD just to prove you can is not a good way to spend your time and money.

The assistant dean may very well have been lying to you, but pursuing legal action seems like a waste of time. What do you expect to get out of that?

I was not dismissed for cheating. I am not worried that any issue will prevent me from bar admission.

You're right about being nicer to people. In additional to psychological rewards, being nicer to people may also improve character.

Proving a point is not my primary motivation for becoming an attorney. I believe that my skills, my initial post not withstanding, are best suited for a career in the legal profession. The question is, should I acquire other skills, skills that will allow me to build a career in another profession?

I do not intend to pursue legal action against my prior law school. I suffered a harm as a direct result of misinformation provided by someone who shouldn't have misinformed me. I understand that I may not be the most apparently sympathetic individual, but I do have a valid argument, and I know that I have a valid argument, partially based on the legal education I received during my 1L year. Furthermore, don't we have courts so that people who have suffered a harm or loss can receive redress? I know I'm not a major corporation or bank with a lot of money to spend, but don't I deserve just compensation for the harm that I have suffered? What I would have hoped to gain is a day in court, and potentially, a punitive award so that law schools aren't so sloppy when they deal with students. Students, not just me, invest thousands of dollars in pursuing a legal education. They deserve to have some guarantee that, if they are misled and suffer a harm for which the law states they should be compensated, that the courts will support them and prevent law schools from taking advantage. I don't think that living in a world of pure wolf-and-sheep mentality helps anyone, and I think my former law school should have done better by me, and that law schools in general should do better by their students.

[cavalier1138]

I do not intend to pursue legal action against my prior law school. I suffered a harm as a direct result of misinformation provided by someone who shouldn't have misinformed me. I understand that I may not be the most apparently sympathetic individual, but I do have a valid argument, and I know that I have a valid argument, partially based on the legal education I received during my 1L year. Furthermore, don't we have courts so that people who have suffered a harm or loss can receive redress? I know I'm not a major corporation or bank with a lot of money to spend, but don't I deserve just compensation for the harm that I have suffered? What I would have hoped to gain is a day in court, and potentially, a punitive award so that law schools aren't so sloppy when they deal with students. Students, not just me, invest thousands of dollars in pursuing a legal education. They deserve to have some guarantee that, if they are misled and suffer a harm for which the law states they should be compensated, that the courts will support them and prevent law schools from taking advantage. I don't think that living in a world of pure wolf-and-sheep mentality helps anyone, and I think my former law school should have done better by me, and that law schools in general should do better by their students.

I think you may have misunderstood a few key points in Torts.

You haven't suffered any loss, at least according to what you've told us here. You failed out of school (of your own accord), and your school did not assist you with reapplying. They are not in any way obliged to help you with applying to new schools, and if they did not believe that you were capable of completing a JD degree, they were well within their rights to not provide you with the ABA 505. And since you were never guaranteed admission into a law school the second time around, you haven't lost out on anything.

I don't see where in your experience you were misled or suffered a harm. And I'm starting to wonder why you actually want to be a lawyer. If you failed out of your first year, I'm not sure why you think that you have the requisite skills that would make you a good attorney.

[bretby]

Were you dismissed for cheating? If so, arent you worried that that might prevent you from bar admission?

The shame of intense failure is difficult to overcome. I've felt it before, and it made me angry and misguided. Letting those feelings control you is dangerous. My advice is be nicer to people and help them whenever possible. There is something psychologically rewarding about that.

I think getting a JD just to prove you can is not a good way to spend your time and money.

The assistant dean may very well have been lying to you, but pursuing legal action seems like a waste of time. What do you expect to get out of that?

I was not dismissed for cheating. I am not worried that any issue will prevent me from bar admission.

You're right about being nicer to people. In additional to psychological rewards, being nicer to people may also improve character.

Proving a point is not my primary motivation for becoming an attorney. I believe that my skills, my initial post not withstanding, are best suited for a career in the legal profession. The question is, should I acquire other skills, skills that will allow me to build a career in another profession?

I do not intend to pursue legal action against my prior law school. I suffered a harm as a direct result of misinformation provided by someone who shouldn't have misinformed me. I understand that I may not be the most apparently sympathetic individual, but I do have a valid argument, and I know that I have a valid argument, partially based on the legal education I received during my 1L year. Furthermore, don't we have courts so that people who have suffered a harm or loss can receive redress? I know I'm not a major corporation or bank with a lot of money to spend, but don't I deserve just compensation for the harm that I have suffered? What I would have hoped to gain is a day in court, and potentially, a punitive award so that law schools aren't so sloppy when they deal with students. Students, not just me, invest thousands of dollars in pursuing a legal education. They deserve to have some guarantee that, if they are misled and suffer a harm for which the law states they should be compensated, that the courts will support them and prevent law schools from taking advantage. I don't think that living in a world of pure wolf-and-sheep mentality helps anyone, and I think my former law school should have done better by me, and that law schools in general should do better by their students.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I highly doubt the people you would be "proving it to" have given two thoughts to your law school career. Most people just aren't that interested in you, and that's true for everyone. On the off chance that there one or two people who spend time thinking about whether or not you are in law school or are a lawyer, this seems like an incredibly costly point to prove, both in terms of time, money and mental stability. Just a thought.

[Commander_Keen]

I do not intend to pursue legal action against my prior law school. I suffered a harm as a direct result of misinformation provided by someone who shouldn't have misinformed me. I understand that I may not be the most apparently sympathetic individual, but I do have a valid argument, and I know that I have a valid argument, partially based on the legal education I received during my 1L year. Furthermore, don't we have courts so that people who have suffered a harm or loss can receive redress? I know I'm not a major corporation or bank with a lot of money to spend, but don't I deserve just compensation for the harm that I have suffered? What I would have hoped to gain is a day in court, and potentially, a punitive award so that law schools aren't so sloppy when they deal with students. Students, not just me, invest thousands of dollars in pursuing a legal education. They deserve to have some guarantee that, if they are misled and suffer a harm for which the law states they should be compensated, that the courts will support them and prevent law schools from taking advantage. I don't think that living in a world of pure wolf-and-sheep mentality helps anyone, and I think my former law school should have done better by me, and that law schools in general should do better by their students.

I think you may have misunderstood a few key points in Torts.

You haven't suffered any loss, at least according to what you've told us here. You failed out of school (of your own accord), and your school did not assist you with reapplying. They are not in any way obliged to help you with applying to new schools, and if they did not believe that you were capable of completing a JD degree, they were well within their rights to not provide you with the ABA 505. And since you were never guaranteed admission into a law school the second time around, you haven't lost out on anything.

I don't see where in your experience you were misled or suffered a harm. And I'm starting to wonder why you actually want to be a lawyer. If you failed out of your first year, I'm not sure why you think that you have the requisite skills that would make you a good attorney.

I'm not going to turn my post into a legal memorandum or approach this as if this were a legal exam. The civil code in my state imposes a general duty of ordinary care as a matter of law. Jurisprudence extends that duty to any particular set of facts based on a test of public policy factors. Whether you or I identify the facts of my situation as justifying redress as a matter of law is largely inconsequential, as we are neither judge nor jury. We can argue in this forum until our heads roll off of our shoulders, and our arguments will still be largely inconsequential. I'll waste no more time. Adieu.

[cavalier1138]

I'm starting to understand your grades...

Someone asked earlier without a response from you: why do you think that you'd perform better this time around?

[A. Nony Mouse]

While I don't think the OP actually does have a legal case, I'm not sure 0Ls need to try to school people in tort law, either.

[cavalier1138]

While I don't think the OP actually does have a legal case, I'm not sure 0Ls need to try to school people in tort law, either.

Well, if a 0L can in these circumstances...

You don't need to have actually started classes to understand the basic principles. Or to see the gaping holes in the OP's argument. No doubt I'll gain a more nuanced understanding of tort law in school, but I don't think you need a JD to explain why the OP doesn't understand the duty of care that his ex-school has to him.

[Commander_Keen]

While I don't think the OP actually does have a legal case, I'm not sure 0Ls need to try to school people in tort law, either.

Well, if a 0L can in these circumstances...

You don't need to have actually started classes to understand the basic principles. Or to see the gaping holes in the OP's argument. No doubt I'll gain a more nuanced understanding of tort law in school, but I don't think you need a JD to explain why the OP doesn't understand the duty of care that his ex-school has to him.

Lol! OL! Good luck in law school, brah!

[Commander_Keen]

what were your grades like that led you to fail and why do you think you're better suited to pass the second time around aside from having already taken the entire 1L curriculum already?

now that you're 3 years removed from undergrad and is ostensibly a fully grown adult, can't you provide the stability to fully prepare for the LSAT this time around?

don't you think you're letting inconsequential factors (ego, daddy issues, "judgment" from your friends and family) getting in the way of what's ultimately best for you - a retake, and more distance from your abject failure?

why do you want to be a lawyer and what kind of law do you think you're suited to practice? do you think you have a shot at getting that kind of job?

just asking because i know i wouldn't want to get legal advice from you based on your rant.

lol had no idea I was advertising.

[Redfactor]

It appears that the ABA has relaxed some of it rigidity when it comes to situations like this. That's good for you.

What is the total cost of attendance?

If you have to start from scratch, I think a TTTT at 27k is a terrible option. If you're able to apply 1.5 years' worth of credits towards that degree, then that substantially reduces the impact, but it's still unlikely to be a good option.

No matter what you do, you'll likely be barred from most quality schools and future employment opportunities, i.e. big- or midlaw, clerking, or gov't. That's probably just a reality. As for the types of schools willing to admit you, I have no idea what your ceiling is because I doubt many, if any at all, will grant you a mulligan.

If I were you and I really, really wanted to be a lawyer, I would focus on minimizing debt and not worrying about the school's rankings, just so long as it's ABA approved. I would go in expecting that you'll be out of the running for any job that cares about school ranking or grades anyways, so just hustle hustle hustle to find a place that cares about fit and work product.



I would also urge people not to wander too close to giving actual legal advice on this forum, especially as a 0L.

[pancakes3]

what were your grades like that led you to fail and why do you think you're better suited to pass the second time around aside from having already taken the entire 1L curriculum already?

now that you're 3 years removed from undergrad and is ostensibly a fully grown adult, can't you provide the stability to fully prepare for the LSAT this time around?

don't you think you're letting inconsequential factors (ego, daddy issues, "judgment" from your friends and family) getting in the way of what's ultimately best for you - a retake, and more distance from your abject failure?

why do you want to be a lawyer and what kind of law do you think you're suited to practice? do you think you have a shot at getting that kind of job?

just asking because i know i wouldn't want to get legal advice from you based on your rant.

lol had no idea I was advertising.

someone who's failed out of law school once already and is gearing up for round 2 at a TTTT should always have employment on your mind. but hey, do you. models and bottles await.

[Commander_Keen]

No matter what you do, you'll likely be barred from most quality schools and future employment opportunities, i.e. big- or midlaw, clerking, or gov't. That's probably just a reality.

Based on what do you draw that conclusion?

[Redfactor]

No matter what you do, you'll likely be barred from most quality schools and future employment opportunities, i.e. big- or midlaw, clerking, or gov't. That's probably just a reality.

Based on what do you draw that conclusion?

Nothing really besides my own general life experience and going through the hiring process at my law school. I think it's safe to say that we're in unfamiliar waters here, and I doubt anyone on this board is going to be able to give you solid advice on what you can expect. This type of thing is probably so case-by-case that even someone who's gone through it can't accurately say what opportunities are available to you.

However, we do know that there are more grads than jobs available; employers can be selective. I bet something like this can get your resume taken out of the stack even before it's seen by anyone with discretionary power. That doesn't mean that no employer will give you an opportunity, I just think you'd be best off assuming this to be true before devoting more money and time into the career.

That said, there are employers who genuinely don't care about grades. They care whether you can handle the work, are good to clients and fellow attorneys/staff, and have a desire to do the type of practice. Or you can always hang a shingle. I just think that your chances of obtaining a lucrative job right out of school are slight, so reducing debt as much as possible as a way to limit exposure is the best route.

I don't intend for my message to be harsh. You stumbled in law school. It doesn't mean you're dumb or a bad person. And I have sympathy because even when someone voluntarily leaves law school, they're often harshly stigmatized. I bet it is worse for you. Take comfort in knowing that people have experienced a failure like this and turned it into a catalyst for successful careers. If people haven't failed at something in life, they haven't taken on enough real challenges.

If I had gone to law school at 22 or 23, I probably wouldn't have done so hot. My time outside of academia definitely helped.

Best of luck.

[isuperserial]

No matter what you do, you'll likely be barred from most quality schools and future employment opportunities, i.e. big- or midlaw, clerking, or gov't. That's probably just a reality.

Based on what do you draw that conclusion?

I have no information to offer in regard to being barred from schools, but if you go to a TTTT, generally speaking you are shutting the door on a lot of employment options. Biglaw and fedclerk are generally off the table, and other jobs are still much more difficult to get.

This is a statistical reality.

I don't know of many people who were previously dismissed from law school, but this is unlikely to help you find gainful employment. It is only reasonable to assume that finding a job will be at least as hard as it normally is at a TTTT, if not harder.

[Commander_Keen]

No matter what you do, you'll likely be barred from most quality schools and future employment opportunities, i.e. big- or midlaw, clerking, or gov't. That's probably just a reality.

Based on what do you draw that conclusion?

Nothing really besides my own general life experience and going through the hiring process at my law school. I think it's safe to say that we're in unfamiliar waters here, and I doubt anyone on this board is going to be able to give you solid advice on what you can expect. This type of thing is probably so case-by-case that even someone who's gone through it can't accurately say what opportunities are available to you.

However, we do know that there are more grads than jobs available; employers can be selective. I bet something like this can get your resume taken out of the stack even before it's seen by anyone with discretionary power. That doesn't mean that no employer will give you an opportunity, I just think you'd be best off assuming this to be true before devoting more money and time into the career.

That said, there are employers who genuinely don't care about grades. They care whether you can handle the work, are good to clients and fellow attorneys/staff, and have a desire to do the type of practice. Or you can always hang a shingle. I just think that your chances of obtaining a lucrative job right out of school are slight, so reducing debt as much as possible as a way to limit exposure is the best route.

I don't intend for my message to be harsh. You stumbled in law school. It doesn't mean you're dumb or a bad person. And I have sympathy because even when someone voluntarily leaves law school, they're often harshly stigmatized. I bet it is worse for you. Take comfort in knowing that people have experienced a failure like this and turned it into a catalyst for successful careers. If people haven't failed at something in life, they haven't taken on enough real challenges.

If I had gone to law school at 22 or 23, I probably wouldn't have done so hot. My time outside of academia definitely helped.

Best of luck.

Thank you.

[Babum]

While I don't think the OP actually does have a legal case, I'm not sure 0Ls need to try to school people in tort law, either.

Well, if a 0L can in these circumstances...

You don't need to have actually started classes to understand the basic principles. Or to see the gaping holes in the OP's argument. No doubt I'll gain a more nuanced understanding of tort law in school, but I don't think you need a JD to explain why the OP doesn't understand the duty of care that his ex-school has to him.

You need to be careful of the categorical statements you make regarding his damages. I do not know the law on this issue, I frankly don't care either. There are situations where a procedural violation of a statute, alone, may give rise to damages.