Top Law Schools

dianersg wrote: irrelevant concern

pancakes3 wrote:this paranoia will serve you well come 1L especially as a kjd.

btw, have you thought about all of the other students at your school that you don't know about that have better GPAs and better softs? or alums of your school with >= GPAs and >= softs who took a year off and now have WE but when they matriculate their UG will still be under your alma mater's banner?

JuliusCaesar wrote:

dianersg wrote: irrelevant concern

dianersg wrote:I am currently studying for the Sept. LSAT and my PT scores indicate that I will likely get into a T14 school. However, I know there are at least two other students at my undergrad institution (a non-elite state school) who are also trying to go to a T14 and have almost identical GPAs and softs. If we all score well on the LSAT, does this limit my chances of being accepted at schools all three of us apply to? In other words, do law schools care about taking too many people from one undergrad institution, or is that an irrelevant concern?

TheMikey wrote:You really should not be worrying about other people in your undergrad deterring you from getting where you want. Just focus on your own shit and you'll get there.

And yes, it kind of is an irrelevant concern.

SullivanLSAC wrote:

TheMikey wrote:You really should not be worrying about other people in your undergrad deterring you from getting where you want. Just focus on your own shit and you'll get there.

And yes, it kind of is an irrelevant concern.

dianersg:

Of course you shouldn't let anyone deter you, and of course you should focus on your own application, but your concern is hardly irrelevant. Quite the contrary, as only one of your number (i.e., current applicants from your less prestigious school) will be admitted to a particular law school. Here's the strategy: get your app in early, and I mean really early, before the law school at issue even sees your classmates' apps and can compare yours with theirs; if that fails and you lose out at a particular school, ask the successful classmate to withdraw at all other schools that you both have in common, or you might lose out, for the same reason, at EACH of them. Offering to reimburse application fees might help.

Good luck.

Dan Sullivan

R. Jeeves wrote:I went to an imprestigious state school, and another dude in the same engineering program as me was admitted to pretty much all the same T14s i was. (Please dont quote this)

Why are you so certain that only one person max can be admitted from each prole school?

cavalier1138 wrote:

SullivanLSAC wrote:

TheMikey wrote:You really should not be worrying about other people in your undergrad deterring you from getting where you want. Just focus on your own shit and you'll get there.

And yes, it kind of is an irrelevant concern.

dianersg:

Of course you shouldn't let anyone deter you, and of course you should focus on your own application, but your concern is hardly irrelevant. Quite the contrary, as only one of your number (i.e., current applicants from your less prestigious school) will be admitted to a particular law school. Here's the strategy: get your app in early, and I mean really early, before the law school at issue even sees your classmates' apps and can compare yours with theirs; if that fails and you lose out at a particular school, ask the successful classmate to withdraw at all other schools that you both have in common, or you might lose out, for the same reason, at EACH of them. Offering to reimburse application fees might help.

Good luck.

Dan Sullivan

Mr. Sullivan,

Do you have even a shred of evidence for your position that can't be found on your personal blog? Because a personally-undertaken "study" that fails to account for even the most basic controlling factors is not evidence. Nor is that one anecdote from that one kid who paid you to give advice.

SullivanLSAC wrote:
Read my answer to R. Jeeves above, and both parts of the blogpost to which I refer. I won't repeat it here for you. Oh, and 30 years' experience.

You've got a lot of anger in you. It's not like I told dianersg to give up and join the circus because she has no hope! Christ, I just told her to get her application in early, and to scramble a bit if that doesn't work. When the advice requires just minimal effort to follow, it doesn't need to be based on years of doctoral dissertation studies, does it? If you think so, then you're going into the wrong business.

SullivanLSAC wrote:

R. Jeeves wrote: Why are you so certain that only one person max can be admitted from each prole school?

I don't know how big your school was, but if it was, say, Ohio State, that's a lot of students to reject, so maybe 2 got admitted. Also, engineers are rare as law school applicants, and rare is good to law school admissions people, so maybe they admitted 2 because they had so few from other schools, and they wanted to be sure and get one. In any event, as a rule, law schools don't seek more than one enrollee per less prestigious school, as they try to get as many such schools represented as they can. (I discuss this in the blogpost to which I referred earlier.)

cavalier1138 wrote:And actually offering to pay someone to withdraw their applications is not "scrambling a bit". It's ridiculous and desperate.

cavalier1138 wrote:

SullivanLSAC wrote:
Read my answer to R. Jeeves above, and both parts of the blogpost to which I refer. I won't repeat it here for you. Oh, and 30 years' experience.

You've got a lot of anger in you. It's not like I told dianersg to give up and join the circus because she has no hope! Christ, I just told her to get her application in early, and to scramble a bit if that doesn't work. When the advice requires just minimal effort to follow, it doesn't need to be based on years of doctoral dissertation studies, does it? If you think so, then you're going into the wrong business.

So in other words, you have a defensive attitude, speculation, ad hominem, and a vested interest in people trusting your opinion so that they pay for your services? Sounds kosher.

And actually offering to pay someone to withdraw their applications is not "scrambling a bit". It's ridiculous and desperate.

OP: There's no evidence to suggest that there are admissions quotas on certain schools. This guy is talking out of his 30-years-of-experience ass.

sublime wrote:

cavalier1138 wrote:

SullivanLSAC wrote:
Read my answer to R. Jeeves above, and both parts of the blogpost to which I refer. I won't repeat it here for you. Oh, and 30 years' experience.

You've got a lot of anger in you. It's not like I told dianersg to give up and join the circus because she has no hope! Christ, I just told her to get her application in early, and to scramble a bit if that doesn't work. When the advice requires just minimal effort to follow, it doesn't need to be based on years of doctoral dissertation studies, does it? If you think so, then you're going into the wrong business.

So in other words, you have a defensive attitude, speculation, ad hominem, and a vested interest in people trusting your opinion so that they pay for your services? Sounds kosher.

And actually offering to pay someone to withdraw their applications is not "scrambling a bit". It's ridiculous and desperate.

OP: There's no evidence to suggest that there are admissions quotas on certain schools. This guy is talking out of his 30-years-of-experience ass.

You can disagree with anybody on this forum, including forum professionals, but don't be a dick about it. The personal attacks really aren't necessary.

SullivanLSAC wrote:I’m a bit puzzled and surprised that a topic such as this one, which so comports with common sense, would cause such controversy, and even excite anger in some. It didn’t when I first introduced it in the Free Advise forum here that I referenced early in this thread. Yes, there was there a bit of back-and-forth about harder evidence, but that quickly resolved itself on both sides. Maybe it’s just that some find it difficult to come to grips with a reality that does not favor their circumstances. If so, I regret being the bearer of bad news, and I try to be the bearer more of what to do with the bad news. For some, that doesn’t solve the problem.

In any event, I feel I do owe those of you who are serious about this topic some additional information, if only to clear up the original, now muddied, points.

First, let’s not lose sight of the fact that most, and I mean most, of what’s going on with this broad issue is a product solely of applicants from more elite colleges having gotten high SATs to get them there, and so probably having high LSAT scores too, and thus – solely because of that -- having an easier time getting into the top law schools. In other words, for most of this, correlation is not causation – but not for all of it, which was my only point.

Next, take a look at the lists most law schools publish identifying the schools of students they have in attendance. Go to this site, http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmission ... -colleges/ , for example, where Harvard lists the 172 schools its students attended (it’s interesting that they no longer list the number from each; since law schools are loathe to appear elitist, what does that tell you?). You know they didn’t fill the class of 650 or so with 3 or 4 students from each school, and since this is a zero-sum game, and they probably enroll, say, 100 from Harvard and 100 more from Yale and Princeton, that doesn’t leave a lot of spots to spread evenly over the other 169 schools. Do the math. I’ll bet most of those schools are singletons. (Here’s a thought: ask a friend who is currently a law student to send you a copy of whatever biographical info they were given on their classmates. It surely lists the college attended for each.)

So this should be just common sense, but for those who don’t like to rely on that, EnderWiggen, in response to my earlier post, drew our attention to a list from Yale that was reproduced here at this site. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p8963557 . It has numbers for each school and supports my suspicions about Harvard. In addition to all the singletons, note that more than one third of the students went to just 5 schools. Also, I just had reason to look at Vanderbilt’s class of 2018 list. Check it out here: https://issuu.com/vanderbiltlawschool/d ... 5348430%20 . It has a few surprises, and some that could even rise to the level of “counterexamples” like those EnderWiggen cited, but what in life doesn’t? (Although unless your “non-prestigious public state university” is Michigan, Berkeley or Virginia, EnderWiggen, I find your 7 number at HLS hard to believe. Sorry.) In any event, it has many singletons, and Vanderbilt does not have many Harvard, Princeton and Yale students left to admit at its spot in the rankings (and for Vanderbilt, some of those less prestigious state schools aren’t so “less prestigious”).

So I stand by my original analysis. As for Cavalier1138’s latest contribution to our discussion, I will let it speak for itself, except in that I must correct one distortion that he made. I suggested that if you have a classmate that you know is applying to some of the same schools you are, and is admitted to one, and has decided to attend it, you might ask him if he would withdraw from the others and sort of get out of your way. That’s not a big thing to ask, but you might get a push back as he has paid an application fee, and you would now have him, essentially, walk away from it. That is not an unreasonable concern for him to have, and so I suggested you offer to “reimburse” (my exact word) him. In law that’s called damages, or “making him whole,” and such application fees are quite small. Cavalier1138 chose to replace that concept with the vaguely stated and in consequence more nefarious concept of “paying someone to withdraw,” as if to suggest a bribe or at least a great deal of money, so as to allow him to characterize the whole matter as “desperate.” It’s nothing of the kind, and I’m sure thoughtful readers see the difference.

SullivanLSAC wrote:
So this should be just common sense, but for those who don’t like to rely on that, EnderWiggen, in response to my earlier post, drew our attention to a list from Yale that was reproduced here at this site. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p8963557 . It has numbers for each school and supports my suspicions about Harvard. In addition to all the singletons, note that more than one third of the students went to just 5 schools. Also, I just had reason to look at Vanderbilt’s class of 2018 list. Check it out here: https://issuu.com/vanderbiltlawschool/d ... 5348430%20 . It has a few surprises, and some that could even rise to the level of “counterexamples” like those EnderWiggen cited, but what in life doesn’t? (Although unless your “non-prestigious public state university” is Michigan, Berkeley or Virginia, EnderWiggen, I find your 7 number at HLS hard to believe. Sorry.) In any event, it has many singletons, and Vanderbilt does not have many Harvard, Princeton and Yale students left to admit at its spot in the rankings (and for Vanderbilt, some of those less prestigious state schools aren’t so “less prestigious”).

EnderWiggin wrote: FWIW the public uni I'm referring to is not one of the ones you mentioned in your pretty presumptuous post. You can PM me for details, but of the 7 HLS admits from that cycle, four chose to enroll, one chose YLS, one chose SLS, and one picked another T14 with a full scholarship.

cavalier1138 wrote:

EnderWiggin wrote: FWIW the public uni I'm referring to is not one of the ones you mentioned in your pretty presumptuous post. You can PM me for details, but of the 7 HLS admits from that cycle, four chose to enroll, one chose YLS, one chose SLS, and one picked another T14 with a full scholarship.

Do you mean to say that not every student admitted to Harvard chooses to attend? That's crazy-talk!

bretby wrote:

SullivanLSAC wrote:I’m a bit puzzled and surprised that a topic such as this one, which so comports with common sense, would cause such controversy, and even excite anger in some. It didn’t when I first introduced it in the Free Advise forum here that I referenced early in this thread. Yes, there was there a bit of back-and-forth about harder evidence, but that quickly resolved itself on both sides. Maybe it’s just that some find it difficult to come to grips with a reality that does not favor their circumstances. If so, I regret being the bearer of bad news, and I try to be the bearer more of what to do with the bad news. For some, that doesn’t solve the problem.

In any event, I feel I do owe those of you who are serious about this topic some additional information, if only to clear up the original, now muddied, points.

First, let’s not lose sight of the fact that most, and I mean most, of what’s going on with this broad issue is a product solely of applicants from more elite colleges having gotten high SATs to get them there, and so probably having high LSAT scores too, and thus – solely because of that -- having an easier time getting into the top law schools. In other words, for most of this, correlation is not causation – but not for all of it, which was my only point.

Next, take a look at the lists most law schools publish identifying the schools of students they have in attendance. Go to this site, http://hls.harvard.edu/dept/jdadmission ... -colleges/ , for example, where Harvard lists the 172 schools its students attended (it’s interesting that they no longer list the number from each; since law schools are loathe to appear elitist, what does that tell you?). You know they didn’t fill the class of 650 or so with 3 or 4 students from each school, and since this is a zero-sum game, and they probably enroll, say, 100 from Harvard and 100 more from Yale and Princeton, that doesn’t leave a lot of spots to spread evenly over the other 169 schools. Do the math. I’ll bet most of those schools are singletons. (Here’s a thought: ask a friend who is currently a law student to send you a copy of whatever biographical info they were given on their classmates. It surely lists the college attended for each.)

So this should be just common sense, but for those who don’t like to rely on that, EnderWiggen, in response to my earlier post, drew our attention to a list from Yale that was reproduced here at this site. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p8963557 . It has numbers for each school and supports my suspicions about Harvard. In addition to all the singletons, note that more than one third of the students went to just 5 schools. Also, I just had reason to look at Vanderbilt’s class of 2018 list. Check it out here: https://issuu.com/vanderbiltlawschool/d ... 5348430%20 . It has a few surprises, and some that could even rise to the level of “counterexamples” like those EnderWiggen cited, but what in life doesn’t? (Although unless your “non-prestigious public state university” is Michigan, Berkeley or Virginia, EnderWiggen, I find your 7 number at HLS hard to believe. Sorry.) In any event, it has many singletons, and Vanderbilt does not have many Harvard, Princeton and Yale students left to admit at its spot in the rankings (and for Vanderbilt, some of those less prestigious state schools aren’t so “less prestigious”).

So I stand by my original analysis. As for Cavalier1138’s latest contribution to our discussion, I will let it speak for itself, except in that I must correct one distortion that he made. I suggested that if you have a classmate that you know is applying to some of the same schools you are, and is admitted to one, and has decided to attend it, you might ask him if he would withdraw from the others and sort of get out of your way. That’s not a big thing to ask, but you might get a push back as he has paid an application fee, and you would now have him, essentially, walk away from it. That is not an unreasonable concern for him to have, and so I suggested you offer to “reimburse” (my exact word) him. In law that’s called damages, or “making him whole,” and such application fees are quite small. Cavalier1138 chose to replace that concept with the vaguely stated and in consequence more nefarious concept of “paying someone to withdraw,” as if to suggest a bribe or at least a great deal of money, so as to allow him to characterize the whole matter as “desperate.” It’s nothing of the kind, and I’m sure thoughtful readers see the difference.

I just don't see HLS admissions officer setting undergrad institution diversity as a very high priority - especially since, as you say, they take a number of students from a few schools every year.

EnderWiggin wrote:

SullivanLSAC wrote:
So this should be just common sense, but for those who don’t like to rely on that, EnderWiggen, in response to my earlier post, drew our attention to a list from Yale that was reproduced here at this site. http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 7#p8963557 . It has numbers for each school and supports my suspicions about Harvard. In addition to all the singletons, note that more than one third of the students went to just 5 schools. Also, I just had reason to look at Vanderbilt’s class of 2018 list. Check it out here: https://issuu.com/vanderbiltlawschool/d ... 5348430%20 . It has a few surprises, and some that could even rise to the level of “counterexamples” like those EnderWiggen cited, but what in life doesn’t? (Although unless your “non-prestigious public state university” is Michigan, Berkeley or Virginia, EnderWiggen, I find your 7 number at HLS hard to believe. Sorry.) In any event, it has many singletons, and Vanderbilt does not have many Harvard, Princeton and Yale students left to admit at its spot in the rankings (and for Vanderbilt, some of those less prestigious state schools aren’t so “less prestigious”).

Whoa buddy. You can calm down with your suggestions that someone who disputes your broad brush strokes about the extent to which UG pedigree is frequently a dispositive factor in LS admissions doesn't like to rely on common sense. I'm familiar with the 2014 YLS list you posted, and I think it can easily be interpreted in a way that would not suggest an otherwise qualified applicant is at some significant disadvantage in admissions if she went to a less-prestigious UG and multiple other people from her UG with a similar profile are also applying that same cycle. Smart high school students who have elite college options generally select elite colleges. We know this; they will be substantially overrepresented in the qualified top law school applicant pool to begin with.

FWIW the public uni I'm referring to is not one of the ones you mentioned in your pretty presumptuous post. You can PM me for details, but of the 7 HLS admits from that cycle, four chose to enroll, one chose YLS, one chose SLS, and one picked another T14 with a full scholarship.