Top Law Schools

I am reading David and Goliath and it is a really interesting read. There is a part about the "Big fish little pond" effect in schools. It says that how you personally feel in a school--your ranking in comparison to the other students--can actually lower your performance. I wonder if this should play into anyone's school selection process. For instance, if a student isn't interested in big law, should they stay away from a more prestigious school to give them a better chance of academic success? Another thing that interested me was their numbers on how a similar percentage of student dropped out of a STEM program across the different levels of colleges. They separated the students into thirds by their average math SAT score. Only 15% of the bottom third who attempted to graduate with a STEM degree graduated at Harvard and at Harwick it was 17.8%. Although the bottom third Harvard student's SAT score was 581 in comparison to Harwick's 407. I'm sure that the rigor of the coursework comes into play here a lot, but what about just being surrounded by amazing people? Like a standout high school football player trying to make it in college. I know I don't have the greatest undergrad foundation and a non-existent high school base--I wonder--I know I'm intelligent but will I choke being around people with so much more previous learning opportunity?

I think people tend to rise to the expectations surrounding them.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think people tend to rise to the expectations surrounding them.

That's a really good point. Maybe it has to do with personalities and competitiveness? I have met some amazing law school applicants so far who have accomplished so much at only 23 or so!

This person is not poultry, I am sure of it

Nolachicken wrote:I am reading David and Goliath and it is a really interesting read. There is a part about the "Big fish little pond" effect in schools. It says that how you personally feel in a school--your ranking in comparison to the other students--can actually lower your performance. I wonder if this should play into anyone's school selection process. For instance, if a student isn't interested in big law, should they stay away from a more prestigious school to give them a better chance of academic success? Another thing that interested me was their numbers on how a similar percentage of student dropped out of a STEM program across the different levels of colleges. They separated the students into thirds by their average math SAT score. Only 15% of the bottom third who attempted to graduate with a STEM degree graduated at Harvard and at Harwick it was 17.8%. Although the bottom third Harvard student's SAT score was 581 in comparison to Harwick's 407. I'm sure that the rigor of the coursework comes into play here a lot, but what about just being surrounded by amazing people? Like a standout high school football player trying to make it in college. I know I don't have the greatest undergrad foundation and a non-existent high school base--I wonder--I know I'm intelligent but will I choke being around people with so much more previous learning opportunity?

I like your David Bowie tar

Wahrheit wrote:

Nolachicken wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think people tend to rise to the expectations surrounding them.

That's a really good point. Maybe it has to do with personalities and competitiveness? I have met some amazing law school applicants so far who have accomplished so much at only 23 or so!

People tend to conform to their circumstances, even if it takes extra work. That's why Scalia's "mismatch" hypothesis was such bunk.

Anyway, no. Follow the TLS wisdom.

Thank you for that information. I looked up the "mismatch" hypothesis. Very interesting information too! So do you think that the similar level of students dropping out of the STEM programs are just because the more prestigious schools are harder? What are your thoughts about the difficulty level of law schools? Are the top 14 harder than let's say the schools around the 50th place?

Clyde Frog wrote:

Nolachicken wrote:I am reading David and Goliath and it is a really interesting read. There is a part about the "Big fish little pond" effect in schools. It says that how you personally feel in a school--your ranking in comparison to the other students--can actually lower your performance. I wonder if this should play into anyone's school selection process. For instance, if a student isn't interested in big law, should they stay away from a more prestigious school to give them a better chance of academic success? Another thing that interested me was their numbers on how a similar percentage of student dropped out of a STEM program across the different levels of colleges. They separated the students into thirds by their average math SAT score. Only 15% of the bottom third who attempted to graduate with a STEM degree graduated at Harvard and at Harwick it was 17.8%. Although the bottom third Harvard student's SAT score was 581 in comparison to Harwick's 407. I'm sure that the rigor of the coursework comes into play here a lot, but what about just being surrounded by amazing people? Like a standout high school football player trying to make it in college. I know I don't have the greatest undergrad foundation and a non-existent high school base--I wonder--I know I'm intelligent but will I choke being around people with so much more previous learning opportunity?

I like your David Bowie tar

Thanks! I love me some David Bowie I dressed up as Jereth from Labyrinth last Halloween.

Law school success has near nothing to do with how smart or talented you are.

Nolachicken wrote:

Wahrheit wrote:

Nolachicken wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think people tend to rise to the expectations surrounding them.

That's a really good point. Maybe it has to do with personalities and competitiveness? I have met some amazing law school applicants so far who have accomplished so much at only 23 or so!

People tend to conform to their circumstances, even if it takes extra work. That's why Scalia's "mismatch" hypothesis was such bunk.

Anyway, no. Follow the TLS wisdom.

Thank you for that information. I looked up the "mismatch" hypothesis. Very interesting information too! So do you think that the similar level of students dropping out of the STEM programs are just because the more prestigious schools are harder? What are your thoughts about the difficulty level of law schools? Are the top 14 harder than let's say the schools around the 50th place?

First of all, MODZ PLEASE, get this shit out of the lounge.

Second, this has been discussed endlessly on TLS and the bottom line is that the benefits of going to a more prestigious law schools vastly outweigh any potential and highly speculative performance gains you might get at a less prestigious law school. There are a ton of reasons for this, but probably the most relevant one is that top law schools do a lot with their grading to disguise class rank whereas lower ranked schools tend to really focus on it. Columbia, for example, knows that as long as its students are perceived as having done well they'll be able to find work whereas Cardozo needs to do everything possible to highlight the accomplishments of it's top students. This ties into reason #2, which is that prestige whoring might be the defining characteristic of the legal industry.

Really, the only time it makes sense to go to a lower ranked school is when there's a big difference in cost or when geography is important (Texas might be a better choice than, say, Cornell for someone who is hell bent on ending up in Texas).

TheUnicornHunter wrote:

Nolachicken wrote:

Wahrheit wrote:

Nolachicken wrote:

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I think people tend to rise to the expectations surrounding them.

That's a really good point. Maybe it has to do with personalities and competitiveness? I have met some amazing law school applicants so far who have accomplished so much at only 23 or so!

People tend to conform to their circumstances, even if it takes extra work. That's why Scalia's "mismatch" hypothesis was such bunk.

Anyway, no. Follow the TLS wisdom.

Thank you for that information. I looked up the "mismatch" hypothesis. Very interesting information too! So do you think that the similar level of students dropping out of the STEM programs are just because the more prestigious schools are harder? What are your thoughts about the difficulty level of law schools? Are the top 14 harder than let's say the schools around the 50th place?

First of all, MODZ PLEASE, get this shit out of the lounge.

Second, this has been discussed endlessly on TLS and the bottom line is that the benefits of going to a more prestigious law schools vastly outweigh any potential and highly speculative performance gains you might get at a less prestigious law school. There are a ton of reasons for this, but probably the most relevant one is that top law schools do a lot with their grading to disguise class rank whereas lower ranked schools tend to really focus on it. Columbia, for example, knows that as long as its students are perceived as having done well they'll be able to find work whereas Cardozo needs to do everything possible to highlight the accomplishments of it's top students. This ties into reason #2, which is that prestige whoring might be the defining characteristic of the legal industry.

Really, the only time it makes sense to go to a lower ranked school is when there's a big difference in cost or when geography is important (Texas might be a better choice than, say, Cornell for someone who is hell bent on ending up in Texas).

I was posting this mainly for the discussion of the book. I think the conversation started focusing more on how that applies to law school. Where should I have posted a conversation about a book? Thank you

Clown forums

I'll move this to Law School Admissions - I think you'll get a better reception there.