Top Law Schools

I've known that Law School was going to be apart of my academic future since I was a child. However, I'm not here to detail my dreams and aspirations. I'm sure (or at least hoping) majority of the people on this forum, too, share a passion for the law. My question is - why such negative reception when telling others of your plans? At my job, I have much free time. During that time, I will have my LSAT prep books out. When people see them at my desk - they shake their heads, and proceed to go on and on informing me that I'll be in debt, jobless, or soulless as a result of entering this profession. Despite what they say, I've done my research, and am highly aware of the risks as well as the benefits; there's nothing that will scare me away from this path. However, I find it funny that no one is jumping down a pre-med's throat, or someone who wants to be a teacher. I mean, these days every profession seemingly, 'won't have jobs'. Where are all the articles telling us reasons why this will be one of the most prestigious, and rewarding decisions we could make - should we bust our butts to make it happen? Idk . I'm just frustrated and the negativity has become overwhelming/ irritating. What are some of your stories regarding the doubters, and what do you do to keep your eye on the prize?

Thanks in advance,

JG.

***update***
I am well aware of the risks associated with going to law school (job outlook, massive loan debt, crazy hours if I find a job) ... the purpose of this post isn't to hear more negative things. I want to know how those who are driven towards this keep their heads on straight, DESPITE doubters. And why people find a career in the legal field rewarding .. thanks

Couple thoughts here:

1. Studying LSAT at work is cool because you are getting paid to study but I can see why other people might roll their eyes at it.

2. Doctors and teachers are objectively better for society than (most) lawyers. Plus, the job outlook is almost certainly better. My friends in med school might worry about getting their first or second choice placements, but they are not seriously concerned about finding a residency and then job that will eventually justify the debt. And teachers get summers off.

3. There aren't many redeeming aspects to going to law school, but one that deserves more attention is that you basically get a 3 year break from having a real job, and if you are young or don't mind living on that much money, you can have a pretty good time. A 3-year vacation that people won't give you a hard time about, and may actually be impressed by, is not a bad deal assuming you don't go into too much debt for it.

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

jchiles wrote:Couple thoughts here:

1. Studying LSAT at work is cool because you are getting paid to study but I can see why other people might roll their eyes at it.

2. Doctors and teachers are objectively better for society than (most) lawyers. Plus, the job outlook is almost certainly better. My friends in med school might worry about getting their first or second choice placements, but they are not seriously concerned about finding a residency and then job that will eventually justify the debt. And teachers get summers off.

3. There aren't many redeeming aspects to going to law school, but one that deserves more attention is that you basically get a 3 year break from having a real job, and if you are young or don't mind living on that much money, you can have a pretty good time. A 3-year vacation that people won't give you a hard time about, and may actually be impressed by, is not a bad deal assuming you don't go into too much debt for it.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. And yes, I work at a non-full-service hotel, so its pretty dead here in the evenings! And I agree that the job outlook is higher for docs. and teachers, but law school has to pay off eventually, right? I don't know. I've just always had it in my head that if I do whats necessary, and market myself the right way - it would pay off greatly. But again, I appreciate your response!

Your coworkers actually say you'll be in debt, jobless and soulless? Most laypeople seem to think going to law school is pretty sweet.

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

By prestige, I'm referring to being educated and trained on a new way of thinking. Being educated in itself (to that higher degree) is something I find admirable. Maybe I just view it a little differently.

Clemenceau wrote:Your coworkers actually say you'll be in debt, jobless and soulless? Most laypeople seem to think going to law school is pretty sweet.

My manager has tried to talk me out of law school, and I was completely shocked. Honestly, no risk = no reward. And I know I refuse to work at a hotel forever and be miserable doing something that I don't love. Debt, be damned lol. Thanks for your response I think it's going to be pretty sweet, as well .

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

By prestige, I'm referring to being educated and trained on a new way of thinking. Being educated in itself (to that higher degree) is something I find admirable. Maybe I just view it a little differently.

yeah that's not really what anyones thinking of when they read prestige

jayebird wrote:

jchiles wrote:Couple thoughts here:

1. Studying LSAT at work is cool because you are getting paid to study but I can see why other people might roll their eyes at it.

2. Doctors and teachers are objectively better for society than (most) lawyers. Plus, the job outlook is almost certainly better. My friends in med school might worry about getting their first or second choice placements, but they are not seriously concerned about finding a residency and then job that will eventually justify the debt. And teachers get summers off.

3. There aren't many redeeming aspects to going to law school, but one that deserves more attention is that you basically get a 3 year break from having a real job, and if you are young or don't mind living on that much money, you can have a pretty good time. A 3-year vacation that people won't give you a hard time about, and may actually be impressed by, is not a bad deal assuming you don't go into too much debt for it.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. And yes, I work at a non-full-service hotel, so its pretty dead here in the evenings! And I agree that the job outlook is higher for docs. and teachers, but law school has to pay off eventually, right? I don't know. I've just always had it in my head that if I do whats necessary, and market myself the right way - it would pay off greatly. But again, I appreciate your response!

Unfortunately you can do exactly what you are describing and have it not pay off, at least in a financial sense. I think there is some real value to a legal education but you can definitely do everything right, in choosing a school, doing well while you're there, and making good connections, and still wind up with a pretty bad outcome.

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

By prestige, I'm referring to being educated and trained on a new way of thinking. Being educated in itself (to that higher degree) is something I find admirable. Maybe I just view it a little differently.

yeah that's not really what anyones thinking of when they read prestige

Well now that you know what I meant by it... lol there you go. And well... people always say 'yeah but only a few lawyers reach that level of success' ... Okay. Your success is contingent upon the work you are willing to put in as an individual. So why should that matter? JW your opinion.

jayebird wrote: but law school has to pay off eventually, right? I don't know. I've just always had it in my head that if I do whats necessary, and market myself the right way - it would pay off greatly. But again, I appreciate your response!

No. It doesn't have to pay off eventually.

For most people (though certainly not all people) the price tag doesn't merit the potential career opportunities. You need to be very careful about the decision you're making.

jchiles wrote:

jayebird wrote:

jchiles wrote:Couple thoughts here:

1. Studying LSAT at work is cool because you are getting paid to study but I can see why other people might roll their eyes at it.

2. Doctors and teachers are objectively better for society than (most) lawyers. Plus, the job outlook is almost certainly better. My friends in med school might worry about getting their first or second choice placements, but they are not seriously concerned about finding a residency and then job that will eventually justify the debt. And teachers get summers off.

3. There aren't many redeeming aspects to going to law school, but one that deserves more attention is that you basically get a 3 year break from having a real job, and if you are young or don't mind living on that much money, you can have a pretty good time. A 3-year vacation that people won't give you a hard time about, and may actually be impressed by, is not a bad deal assuming you don't go into too much debt for it.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. And yes, I work at a non-full-service hotel, so its pretty dead here in the evenings! And I agree that the job outlook is higher for docs. and teachers, but law school has to pay off eventually, right? I don't know. I've just always had it in my head that if I do whats necessary, and market myself the right way - it would pay off greatly. But again, I appreciate your response!

Unfortunately you can do exactly what you are describing and have it not pay off, at least in a financial sense. I think there is some real value to a legal education but you can definitely do everything right, in choosing a school, doing well while you're there, and making good connections, and still wind up with a pretty bad outcome.

Agreed. But isn't that with anything? So my question is... what does everyone suppose we do? Make any decision, and people are quick to say .. 'You know, that field is soooo saturated. You will be out of work'. Okay.. so what should we all do? Because working as a front desk clerk for the rest of my life is no better than taking a little extra time to be in the one field that matters to me. Ya know ?

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

By prestige, I'm referring to being educated and trained on a new way of thinking. Being educated in itself (to that higher degree) is something I find admirable. Maybe I just view it a little differently.

yeah that's not really what anyones thinking of when they read prestige

Well now that you know what I meant by it... lol there you go. And well... people always say 'yeah but only a few lawyers reach that level of success' ... Okay. Your success is contingent upon the work you are willing to put in as an individual. So why should that matter? JW your opinion.

Due to the nature of law school grades and the curve it is a lot more "luck" contingent than you might think except at tip top schools if you want a "prestige" job

plus there just aren't that many "prestigious" lawyer jobs and most everyone is working hard for em (no ones ever like damn ,my dream is to do plaintiffs slip n fall) so knowing the right people or being the right skin color or clicking in an interview with a federal judge can push you over the edge even more so than your hard work

take it from a lawyer if you want prestige law is the wrong game its def more interesting that being a hotel desk clerk but most of the jobs aren't "interesting" or well-regarded

that said in general i like bein a lawyer but the hours for the pay isn't awesome and it sucks paying off $100k in loans

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote:

baal hadad wrote:

jayebird wrote: prestigious

like 2% of lawyers are prestigious

By prestige, I'm referring to being educated and trained on a new way of thinking. Being educated in itself (to that higher degree) is something I find admirable. Maybe I just view it a little differently.

yeah that's not really what anyones thinking of when they read prestige

Well now that you know what I meant by it... lol there you go. And well... people always say 'yeah but only a few lawyers reach that level of success' ... Okay. Your success is contingent upon the work you are willing to put in as an individual. So why should that matter? JW your opinion.

Due to the nature of law school grades and the curve it is a lot more "luck" contingent than you might think except at tip top schools if you want a "prestige" job

plus there just aren't that many "prestigious" lawyer jobs and most everyone is working hard for em (no ones ever like damn ,my dream is to do plaintiffs slip n fall) so knowing the right people or being the right skin color or clicking in an interview with a federal judge can push you over the edge even more so than your hard work

take it from a lawyer if you want prestige law is the wrong game its def more interesting that being a hotel desk clerk but most of the jobs aren't "interesting" or well-regarded

that said in general i like bein a lawyer but the hours for the pay isn't awesome and it sucks paying off $100k in loans

I don't just want the prestige, I just used that as an example. I know monetary gain and the 'title' in itself is not a good enough reason to dedicate my life with this. I've read all about 'burning out' and I'm also aware that when times get stressful, you need more to keep you going than just enjoying the title of being an attorney/ "salary" (which isn't crazy for everyone). But thank you for your answer, now! I'll take this into consideration.

Hi JG,

Well I am a little late to the game, but here is my perspective to your questions (admittedly I am in your situation as a 0L, however I am in my late 20s and have what most people would likely consider a successful early career and have seen firsthand what other "successful" career plans play out for others).

First of all, regarding individuals pursuing teaching and the medicals fields being less criticized, an earlier poster hit it on the head with those positions generally being regarded as benefiting society more in the aggregate. That's not to say of course that lawyers don't do wonderful things, or that they don't benefit society, but a lot of the times the stories that generate the most news are those that negatively portray the legal profession are more dominant and thus influence individuals feelings.

However, regarding job outcomes, I don't know about where you live, but as somebody who has lived across the country the economy for new teachers is not substantially better than that for attorneys (especially when taken into consideration the state of pension plans by the time most people under 40 are looking to retire). Regarding the medical field, yes, nurses, PAs, and NPs, generally do find careers which allow them to service their debt and have it "pay off eventually" financially. That being said, I can say from first hand experience the MD or DO route isn't all it's cracked up to be. As with prospective attorneys, a lot of individuals end up pursuing medicine as that is what they always thought they should do and end up in well over 200k in debt (significantly over that if we include undergraduate debt). People do strike out at finding residencies and many more take out loans assuming a certain salary only to match lower / partake in the scramble to find a lower 100k family practitioner position. Now yes, compared to individuals going to TTT, TT, or most T1 law schools and paying sticker this is a better proposition, but just to be clear there is a very real risk even if it isn't as well known.

As to what you should do, that is totally up to you. It sounds like you have done your due diligence and as anybody on this site would say, study hard for the LSAT and go to a T14 at a discount or anything else for free or close to it. One other thing to think a lot about when making this decision is what your goals are. If it's big law or as hard to get into as big law, then top school it is. However, I have seen what I call success stories of individuals going to a well regarded 50-100 ranked school for free or close to it, who knew they wanted to stay in state, who finished in the top 15% of their class, and got what was for them their dream job (plus that way you can always bail after 1L if you don't have top class grades with only opportunity cost lost).

Last comment I'll give for now. It sounds like you made up your mind, but do ask yourself why do you really want to be a lawyer and be cognizant of the fact that you will never really know if you will enjoy it until you are there (and even then your impression is likely to be biased based off of outcome). Early on I pursued an opportunity which I had thought was always going to be my life dream only to realize when I got it that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. It was a valuable wake-up call, and an important thing to consider when making a big time risk assessment.

Hope this is of some help!

Hornet2011 wrote:Hi JG,

Well I am a little late to the game, but here is my perspective to your questions (admittedly I am in your situation as a 0L, however I am in my late 20s and have what most people would likely consider a successful early career and have seen firsthand what other "successful" career plans play out for others).

First of all, regarding individuals pursuing teaching and the medicals fields being less criticized, an earlier poster hit it on the head with those positions generally being regarded as benefiting society more in the aggregate. That's not to say of course that lawyers don't do wonderful things, or that they don't benefit society, but a lot of the times the stories that generate the most news are those that negatively portray the legal profession are more dominant and thus influence individuals feelings.

However, regarding job outcomes, I don't know about where you live, but as somebody who has lived across the country the economy for new teachers is not substantially better than that for attorneys (especially when taken into consideration the state of pension plans by the time most people under 40 are looking to retire). Regarding the medical field, yes, nurses, PAs, and NPs, generally do find careers which allow them to service their debt and have it "pay off eventually" financially. That being said, I can say from first hand experience the MD or DO route isn't all it's cracked up to be. As with prospective attorneys, a lot of individuals end up pursuing medicine as that is what they always thought they should do and end up in well over 200k in debt (significantly over that if we include undergraduate debt). People do strike out at finding residencies and many more take out loans assuming a certain salary only to match lower / partake in the scramble to find a lower 100k family practitioner position. Now yes, compared to individuals going to TTT, TT, or most T1 law schools and paying sticker this is a better proposition, but just to be clear there is a very real risk even if it isn't as well known.

As to what you should do, that is totally up to you. It sounds like you have done your due diligence and as anybody on this site would say, study hard for the LSAT and go to a T14 at a discount or anything else for free or close to it. One other thing to think a lot about when making this decision is what your goals are. If it's big law or as hard to get into as big law, then top school it is. However, I have seen what I call success stories of individuals going to a well regarded 50-100 ranked school for free or close to it, who knew they wanted to stay in state, who finished in the top 15% of their class, and got what was for them their dream job (plus that way you can always bail after 1L if you don't have top class grades with only opportunity cost lost).

Last comment I'll give for now. It sounds like you made up your mind, but do ask yourself why do you really want to be a lawyer and be cognizant of the fact that you will never really know if you will enjoy it until you are there (and even then your impression is likely to be biased based off of outcome). Early on I pursued an opportunity which I had thought was always going to be my life dream only to realize when I got it that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. It was a valuable wake-up call, and an important thing to consider when making a big time risk assessment.

Hope this is of some help!

I reallyyyyyyyyyy appreciate this response. It was well-written, and much thought went into it. It def has given me some perspective/much too consider. Btw, I live in Chicago. I've always had it in my head that I would do criminal law. My professor is a very successful defense attorney, and he's served as a mentor to me.) However, I'm open to discovering new types of law . You're right - One never knows what they'll fall in love with.

Go check out the vale (in the employment forum) or ask '09 Latham employees (or Dewey summers). Doing the right thing, marketing, hustling, great grades, may still not save you from it never working out. This means finishing three years of law school, unemployment and then never practicing as an attorney.

If you're looking to confirm your bias, great, here's some of that--I enjoy law school a lot. I was an average UG student, but a kickass law student. I enjoy the classes. I enjoy the material. It's what I want to do, and we'll see how much I change my tune when I begin practice.

barkschool wrote:Go check out the vale (in the employment forum) or ask '09 Latham employees (or Dewey summers). Doing the right thing, marketing, hustling, great grades, may still not save you from it never working out. This means finishing three years of law school, unemployment and then never practicing as an attorney.

If you're looking to confirm your bias, great, here's some of that--I enjoy law school a lot. I was an average UG student, but a kickass law student. I enjoy the classes. I enjoy the material. It's what I want to do, and we'll see how much I change my tune when I begin practice.

I'm not anywhere neaaaaaaaaaar being the most optimistic type of person, but I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical. But thank you for your input.

there's no fucking positive outlooks

jayebird wrote:

barkschool wrote:Go check out the vale (in the employment forum) or ask '09 Latham employees (or Dewey summers). Doing the right thing, marketing, hustling, great grades, may still not save you from it never working out. This means finishing three years of law school, unemployment and then never practicing as an attorney.

If you're looking to confirm your bias, great, here's some of that--I enjoy law school a lot. I was an average UG student, but a kickass law student. I enjoy the classes. I enjoy the material. It's what I want to do, and we'll see how much I change my tune when I begin practice.

I'm not anywhere neaaaaaaaaaar being the most optimistic type of person, but I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical. But thank you for your input.

Dude, some optimism is fine, but yes, people can go fifty years without getting a job in the profession they really want to be in. Some people really do never get a legal job. They might fail out of school. They might fail the bar. They might simply never find a legal job. And the thing is you don't need fifty years - go 3-4 years without getting a legal job, chances are good that you're never getting one. I'm not saying what the chances are that this will happen to you, but it's important to recognize it's possible.

A. Nony Mouse wrote:

jayebird wrote:

barkschool wrote:Go check out the vale (in the employment forum) or ask '09 Latham employees (or Dewey summers). Doing the right thing, marketing, hustling, great grades, may still not save you from it never working out. This means finishing three years of law school, unemployment and then never practicing as an attorney.

If you're looking to confirm your bias, great, here's some of that--I enjoy law school a lot. I was an average UG student, but a kickass law student. I enjoy the classes. I enjoy the material. It's what I want to do, and we'll see how much I change my tune when I begin practice.

I'm not anywhere neaaaaaaaaaar being the most optimistic type of person, but I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical. But thank you for your input.

Dude, some optimism is fine, but yes, people can go fifty years without getting a job in the profession they really want to be in. Some people really do never get a legal job. They might fail out of school. They might fail the bar. They might simply never find a legal job. And the thing is you don't need fifty years - go 3-4 years without getting a legal job, chances are good that you're never getting one. I'm not saying what the chances are that this will happen to you, but it's important to recognize it's possible.

Again, as I've stated in the original post - and the 'update', I'm more than aware.. of... the... risks... lol. My question is why does everything have to be so focused on the negative? I was hesitant posting anything on here due to the mass amount of selective readers. I was better off sticking to the articles online telling me there's no hope, since that's what I'm getting from this anyway.

People here focus on the negative because there is a still an incredibly widespread perception that getting a JD - any JD - is a path to a secure, comfortable, middle-class existence, if not to actual riches and prestige. So people here are attempting to counter that widespread, pervasive, and wrong assumption. Also, a huge number of lawyers, and people here who are going to be lawyers, are seriously risk averse, and being overly optimistic is much riskier than being overly pessimistic. Someone who really wants to go to LS, and for good reasons, isn't going to be dissuaded by the negativity here; someone who doesn't have good reasons for going might make better-informed choices.

As for online articles, news that things are rosy and wonderful and job options are plentiful doesn't sell. And the "there is no hope" articles wouldn't be news except that, again, the widespread perception is that law is a hunky dory option for everyone. And there plain isn't any need for articles telling people why law school is a great decision, because there are still more law students/lawyers than there are jobs.

(Also, saying you're aware of the risks and saying "there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job" seems kind of contradictory.)

If you're really sure about your choices, why do you have to keep your eye on the prize or even worry at all what the doubters say? Why does the negativity matter?

(FWIW, I do find practicing law rewarding. But I really didn't know before going to law school what it was going to be like, and really didn't find out until I got into my job, and it was a huge adjustment. And I didn't end up doing anything remotely related to what I thought I was going to do when I went to school. So I mostly consider myself fairly lucky.)

jayebird wrote:I'm not anywhere neaaaaaaaaaar being the most optimistic type of person, but I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical. But thank you for your input.

To add to nony's credited response, even if we assume that everyone gets a legal job within 50 years, that doesn't mean that it "work out" for everyone. Plenty of people don't find salaries sufficient to pay off their debts and plenty of others simply hate the legal jobs they end up with, among other things. A significant chunk of law graduates with legal jobs still have subpar outcomes.

I would note that everything else isn't necessarily all that rosy (see, e.g., stagnating wages in the US economy). However, most other fields don't require a 3 year graduate degree to enter so attempting to join the legal profession entails much higher costs.

eagle2a wrote:there's no fucking positive outlooks

Agreed. And this is coming from someone doing one of the few "prestigious" law jobs.

came in to say that everyone I know in the whole world, the vast majority of whom were laypeople though admittedly laypeople with connections to lawyers/the law/other standing to know the score, told me not to go to law school because it was a terrible idea. Stayed for

jayebird wrote:I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical.

this is classic 'dumb as fuck' stuff, I can't get enough of it