Why doesn't anyone tell you the positive outlooks of going to law school? Forum

[xiao_long]

It's not that people are mindlessly focused on the negativity because they so desire; rather, law is objectively a bad choice for the vast majority of people. I think someone on TLS said it best: Law is a great occupation if you have a SCOTUS clerkship under your belt or something along those lines. For instance, even if you end up getting Biglaw, and that's a big "if" for the vast majority of law students, I'm sure you know the attrition rate is alarmingly high at most of the big firms - even if it's the only job that can allow you to comfortably service a high six-figure student loan debt. Law has turned into a profession where it's great if you're in the top 5 percent of the occupation, but darn right shitty if you're just another lawyer in an oversaturated market. It's basic supply and demand. And when you're forking over the cost of a house for such a "privilege", you can understand why there's so much uneasiness about the legal profession today.

[Teoeo]

I think the default is negative because the average person is woefully ignorant of what they are getting into. Having said that, I agree that people on TLS are sometimes over the top. Better to err on the side of caution I suppose. Good luck and feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions (third year of practice)

[LA Spring]

I’ll give you the same advice I recently gave someone IRL. To enhance your chance for a positive outcome, make sure your law school offers a healthy dose of OCI interviews with firms paying six figs. I had around 20 interviews and received two offers (I had somewhat better than median grades). I had a friend (with great grades) at a local lower tier LS where OCI was a joke, the result was no SA, eventually my friend landed a job (through mass mailing) paying only $70k (which is tough if tuition is 100+).

[Johann]

because people in law secretly love it so much and it is such easy money we want to keep it a secret from random strangers like you.

[A. Nony Mouse]

because people in law secretly love it so much and it is such easy money we want to keep it a secret from random strangers like you.

[zhenders]

because people in law secretly love it so much and it is such easy money we want to keep it a secret from random strangers like you.

I knew it.

[rinkrat19]

Go check out the vale (in the employment forum) or ask '09 Latham employees (or Dewey summers). Doing the right thing, marketing, hustling, great grades, may still not save you from it never working out. This means finishing three years of law school, unemployment and then never practicing as an attorney.

If you're looking to confirm your bias, great, here's some of that--I enjoy law school a lot. I was an average UG student, but a kickass law student. I enjoy the classes. I enjoy the material. It's what I want to do, and we'll see how much I change my tune when I begin practice.

I'm not anywhere neaaaaaaaaaar being the most optimistic type of person, but I know for a fact that there's no way anyone can go FIFTY YEARS without landing a job in the profession that they really want to be in. So it can't possibly 'never' work out. I don't think I have a bias, but I definitely don't see that as being logical. But thank you for your input.

Dude, some optimism is fine, but yes, people can go fifty years without getting a job in the profession they really want to be in. Some people really do never get a legal job. They might fail out of school. They might fail the bar. They might simply never find a legal job. And the thing is you don't need fifty years - go 3-4 years without getting a legal job, chances are good that you're never getting one. I'm not saying what the chances are that this will happen to you, but it's important to recognize it's possible.

Again, as I've stated in the original post - and the 'update', I'm more than aware.. of... the... risks... lol. My question is why does everything have to be so focused on the negative? I was hesitant posting anything on here due to the mass amount of selective readers. I was better off sticking to the articles online telling me there's no hope, since that's what I'm getting from this anyway.

We focus on the negative (i.e. reality) because you've got the rainbows and sunshine and fuzzy kitten outlook 100% covered. We're just providing balance.

[Ravenclaw23]

There is a reason why businesses call their general counsel the "VP of NO" -- lawyers must anticipate the worst case scenario & need to be risk adverse. Your focus should ALWAYS be on the worst case, not the best. What happens if you graduate without a job? Are you saddled with $150K in loans with no way to pay them off or do you have $5K that you could pay off by working at Starbucks if necessary? No one is telling you not to hope for the best, you just need to prepare for the worst.

That said, people emphasize the risks of law school because too many people go to law school for the wrong reasons. Too many people graduate from undergrad with no job prospects & just decide they'll go to law school, not because they're interested, but because lawyers "make a lot of money". I give tours at my law school & I cannot tell you the number of people who want to go to law school because they love Law & Order or Suits. There are FAR too many people who decide to apply to law school on a whim and take out 6 figures in debt without a second thought. People (& lawyers especially) focus on the negatives so that people who are uninformed might decide to pull up google & do some research.

Also, I think your med school comparison is really off base. There is not a surplus of doctors like there is in the legal profession & there are significantly fewer horrifically uninformed med school applicants than law applicants because: (1) There are classes you are required to take to even sit for the MCAT, meaning you can't wake up one morning with an Art History degree and say "I think I'll be a doctor" like you can with law school. (2) AMA limits the number of students who get into American med schools based on the expected number of residency spots in 4 years. This means that the medical profession weeds you out before you take on 6-figures in debt - compare this to law schools with falling enrollment who take hundreds students who have very little chance of even passing the bar exam, let alone getting a job.

That said, I don't think there is anything wrong with someone who TRULY wants to be a lawyer going to law school -- obviously everyone responding to your post chose to go despite the obvious risks. I decided I wanted to be a lawyer pretty young & I love law school. BUT -- I played it smart. I worked for a few years after undergrad, paid off my loans & to saved up for living expenses. I also got offers from T14 schools & I took a full-ride at a top 25 instead. I ended up with a SA position at a big firm in my target market & I REALLY hope it turns into a job offer, but the point is that IF it doesn't & I graduate without a job I'm in a far better situation than most.

Best of luck!

[baal hadad]

Crim law is actually p cool if you have the heart for it. Interesting cases. Hard af to make money at it though. Most likely entry level job is low paying DA or PD job for 2-5 yrs then trying to find the criminals who actually have money so they can hire you

Lemme tell u what op u better hope just being aawyer has some inherent satisfaction in itself bc it sucks ass seeing all my bros buy houses, take cool trips, be financially stable, etc

While I don't save money and shove a bunch of money every mo to the Feds and will be for maybe the next 8 yrs

[jbagelboy]

What positive outlooks

[OLitch]

I'm sure you would receive negative feedback from people if they saw you studying for your MCAT. You would hear about the insane residency requirements, how you need to specialize, how difficult it is to practice in certain fields. People like to be negative.

I am friends with many successful lawyers in many different fields. I've spent the last several years shadowing them and asking questions about their choices. Most of the practicing attorneys I know love what they do. One friend of mine makes peanuts prosecuting misdemeanors but he is home for dinner every night with his family. He enjoys the work and gets along well with his coworkers. Another friend has his own nich practice. He claims that if he won the lottery, he would still do the same job but would take cases without pay. A few of my friends no longer practice law for reasons that have already been beaten to death on TLS. I do have to admit that I am older and my attorney friends are older than I am. They all entered the legal profession with the job market was much better. Only two of my friends went to a T14. life is what you make it.

As far as my experience goes, only one negative nelly hurt my feelings- my grandfather. Instead of being proud of me for overcoming all the odds and being the first in the family to go to college, he criticized my choice to go to GULC over a much lower ranked instate school. He then told my husband that my children need a mom not a law student.

[Alive97]

I do think TLS has more negativity than is called for. Of course there will always be a vocal minority on the Internet, like the guy saying "dumb fuck" in this thread. And I agree that negativity kind of gets a blowhorn and is off-putting and discouraging, IF you are someone who does in fact have a good plan and has job prospects that line up with one's financial situation. I think it is well possible that people who would have been in this boat have had their minds changed by Internet negativity.

That said, OP, some of your statements may be, at first glance, contradictory. You say 1) you've always had your heart set on law school, and can't possibly believe there couldn't be a good outcome, 2) have assessed all risks and are fully knowledgeable about downsides, and 3) want to go into criminal law unless some other area of law strikes you as more interesting. For one, Criminal law is unlikely to go well with any high monthly debt payment. Also, you should be certain that #2 is true despite #1 seeming to suggest a preconceived belief. After all, your knowledge of criminal law may be lacking in the money department.

If you have a good plan that matches job prospects with expected debt, then you can use your confidence in yourself and your plan to keep your eyes on the prize .

[SullivanLSAC]

Hi jayebird:

If you want some encouragement (along with some discouragement -- sorry), check out the discussion I began on November 17 over in the Free Help and Advice forum entitled "Sure You Want to go to Law School...." In particular, see my entry therein of November 22, in which I respond to a participant who was having an especially difficult time.

In short: go to law school!

Good luck.

Dan Sullivan