Page 1 of 1

Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:39 pm
by Troianii
So when looking around LSAC at admissions stats for schools, you'll often find this:
Admission to Cornell Law School is very competitive. Members of the most recent entering class had a median undergraduate grade-point average of 3.68 and a median LSAT score of 167. But we do not evaluate candidates by the numbers alone. The admissions committee carefully considers such nonquantifiable factors as extracurricular and community activities, life experience and work background, and recommendations. The law school subscribes to the university's long-standing tradition of affirmative action, and members of traditionally underrepresented minority groups are encouraged to mention their status where they think it is relevant. The decision to offer admission ultimately rests on whether the committee is convinced that the applicant will be an energetic, productive, and successful member of the Cornell Law School community and, eventually, the legal profession.
Instead of grids, like this:

https://www.law.hawaii.edu/sites/www.la ... rofile.jpg

Or this

http://www.deloggio.com/lsat/profilebar.jpg

And I'm wondering - does anyone actually think that these schools are that different in their process than ones that offer it? It just seems odd to me that schools would withhold this information except to get students with low numbers to think "there's a chance" and they might be the lucky one (since part of the USNews rankings system is acceptance rate, and you've got to be able to reject students to have a lower acceptance rate). Is anyone here aware of why schools actually withhold this information? Does anyone think these schools run the admissions process any different? I highly doubt that any of these schools really run the process any different, except for a tiny handful. I've heard Cornell and Michigan mentioned as schools that really do a "wholistic" admissions process and actually mean it, but I seriously doubt their admissions figures would be significantly different from other top 20 schools. Even in the cases of ones that are "really" different, like Michigan and Cornell (again, that's just what I've heard), I doubt that makes a significant difference - I imagine they look a little more at soft factors and a little less at hard factors, but that they're still pretty much doing it the same.

Final Q in a series of Qs - anyone else annoyed by these kinds of responses when you're looking for admissions grids? I've found these admissions grids to be really useful, certainly more useful than just the 25th/75th percentiles. I mean, these kinds of grids have really helped me figure out the difference between what, for me, are reach schools and what are just silly fantasies.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:11 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Do a lot of schools actually provide this information? I don't remember any of them doing so back when I was applying (pre-LST).

Also keep in mind that the second graphic seems to be a third-party predictor rather than a strict report of distribution of scores. Those are two different things.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:21 pm
by Troianii
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Do a lot of schools actually provide this information? I don't remember any of them doing so back when I was applying (pre-LST).

Also keep in mind that the second graphic seems to be a third-party predictor rather than a strict report of distribution of scores. Those are two different things.
Yeah some do. It becomes progressively more common the lower the school ranking is. I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure that a majority of law schools offer this information, and that none of the T-14s do. But here are some top 25 selections, from LSAC's school descriptions. I'm just really suspicious of schools saying they won't provide it because they "consider other factors".


https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... px?sid=148
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... spx?sid=89
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... spx?sid=48
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... px?sid=137
https://officialguide.lsac.org/Release/ ... aspx?sid=2

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:27 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Oh, I think LSAC has always done this. I hadn't seen schools actually put this info on their own web sites before.

In any case, I don't think you should read anything into schools declining to submit this info - that is, it doesn't mean that school is actually more holistic than any other. It's probably designed to prevent people who get rejected despite having good numbers for that school from harassing adcomms about why they didn't get in. :D

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:00 pm
by Big Dog
they don't publish such data because it is not in their interest to do so.

And in reality, if an applicant cannot figure out their own 'fantasy' chances based on the published medians, then, that applicant needs better critical thinking (and googling) skills.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:10 pm
by Troianii
Big Dog wrote:they don't publish such data because it is not in their interest to do so.

And in reality, if an applicant cannot figure out their own 'fantasy' chances based on the published medians, then, that applicant needs better critical thinking (and googling) skills.
There's always a super-friendly person to come along in each thread, right? Well hey, in reality, if one wishes to go to law school they should be able to understand nuances in language, like what "more useful" means, as opposed to, "essential" or "necessary".

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:16 pm
by Big Dog
^^of course it would be useful to nearly every applicant, but that is the point: it is not useful for the law schools. They do only what is in their best interests. If it would benefit them, they'd publish the data. (And that responds to your question of, "Why?")

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:16 am
by Troianii
Big Dog wrote:^^of course it would be useful to nearly every applicant, but that is the point: it is not useful for the law schools. They do only what is in their best interests. If it would benefit them, they'd publish the data. (And that responds to your question of, "Why?")
Well sure - law schools still want people who they'll never let in to apply, because it makes them more selective - lower acceptance rates, all about those rankings. I just find the explanations to be pure bs. :mrgreen:

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 4:39 pm
by T14-->BigLaw
You can find the grid on ever school's website. The ABA requires all accredited law schools to post 509 forms on their website.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:06 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
T14-->BigLaw wrote:You can find the grid on ever school's website. The ABA requires all accredited law schools to post 509 forms on their website.
That doesn't break down how many people got in with what LSAT, right? It just gives 25/50/75 percentiles.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:17 pm
by Troianii
T14-->BigLaw wrote:You can find the grid on ever school's website. The ABA requires all accredited law schools to post 509 forms on their website.
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
T14-->BigLaw wrote:You can find the grid on ever school's website. The ABA requires all accredited law schools to post 509 forms on their website.
That doesn't break down how many people got in with what LSAT, right? It just gives 25/50/75 percentiles.
Nope. This is what Harvard offers, for example:

http://hls.harvard.edu/content/uploads/ ... t20142.pdf

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:34 pm
by A. Nony Mouse
Yeah, I think schools breaking it down into as much detail as Hawaii lists is still pretty rare.

Post removed.

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 12:30 am
by MistakenGenius
Post removed.

Re: Law schools not offering admission grid - why?

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 2:05 am
by malleus discentium

Post removed.

Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:36 am
by MistakenGenius
Post removed.