Top Law Schools

Can anyone shed some light on which on these would be a good decision? I'm really looking for a good balanced JD education without being pinned down about what I intend to practice. I know for some of you these aren't "top" schools but hey, we all have to learn somewhere. Appreciate your comments.

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What do you mean by pinned down about what you want to practice?

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urbanist11 wrote:Without knowing any details, neither. Both give you a 50-60% chance at being a lawyer. What is your gpa/lsat? Where are you from? What are your goals? Even with these answers, I'd almost definitely say don't go to either.

WVU:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/2014/

Maine:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/jobs/2014/

GPA and LSAT suck. Unfortunately went to a college that made it a priority to fail or give low scores. So there was an upward trend in my grades but nothing major. The LSAT score is really low as well but potential wise these two schools are willing to work with me. Currently in MD so both of these would require a move. Goals long term involve immigration law.

Thanks but I am definitely going to one of these schools and will be doing the best I can be employed afterwards. Neither is not an option.

BigZuck wrote:What do you mean by pinned down about what you want to practice?

Well right now, I would like to do immigration law but I want to stay open to other interests that may develop during law school.

pittsburghpirates wrote:

urbanist11 wrote:Without knowing any details, neither. Both give you a 50-60% chance at being a lawyer. What is your gpa/lsat? Where are you from? What are your goals? Even with these answers, I'd almost definitely say don't go to either.

WVU:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/jobs/2014/

Maine:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/jobs/2014/

This. Law school is a huge financial investment for what looks like a coin flip at being a lawyer from these schools. Also these schools do not have a national reach. Do you want to practice/live in West virginia or maine? Just another thing to think about as your employment outcomes will likely be limited to the regions where these schools are

I am open to practicing in either state for a decent amount of time before looking elsewhere if that is the case. They are both the only law schools in their respective states too ... hmm...

there are essentially no people who should be seriously considering this mix of schools. nobody on this forum will categorically say you must go to a top school, but if you are not going to attend a top school, the game changes and you need to meet a few requirements for it not to be a life-ruining decision.

Among other things, some of these requirements are that you have legitimate ties to the region the school places its students into, that you have a full ride or will graduate with a debt load that doesn't exceed your expected first year salary (which at non-T14 schools is generally about 60K, tops), that you have a legitimately shitty career outlook with few desirable and attainable alternatives, and that, for this particular region you want to be in (the one you have legit ties to), you are not attending a dumpster fire. More than 40% of WVU grads cant find jobs as attorneys ten months after graduation. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/. For Maine, it's more than 50%. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/.

I would not attend Maine under any circumstances. If you have a lot of family in West Virginia and want to practice there for a long time, and you have a full ride there, and you have depressingly few career options and those options are terrible, and if you are content knowing there is basically a coin-flip's chance you'll never become an attorney after four years of no income in pursuit of being an attorney, then I would say WVU is fine.

Otherwise retake or find another career path. Good luck.

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You have a right to go to law school, absolutely. However you're not owed anything when it comes to getting a job. The market is rough out there. There are twice as many students as there are jobs - and most those jobs are really terrible, boring, low-paying jobs.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2 ... el-income/

ms2dai wrote:
Thanks but I am definitely going to one of these schools and will be doing the best I can be employed afterwards. Neither is not an option.

If you're willing to do "the best you can" to be employed after law school, why are you not willing to focus that energy on the LSAT? Why are you settling for a score that, in your own words, sucks?

ms2dai wrote: They are both the only law schools in their respective states too ... hmm...

And yet both still have a huge percentage of unemployed graduates. That should tell you something. More than half of Maine students come up with nothing. You're probably in a worse position than most, too, since you're not even from the state, and it's a small, insular market. Why do you, the outsider, expect to fare better than locals?

I'm originally from MD and went to WVU for undergrad. It's low cost of living and much easier to establish ties in WV. The problem that I ran into is that WV as a whole has little in the way of economic opportunity, so I left.

Traynor Brah wrote:there are essentially no people who should be seriously considering this mix of schools. nobody on this forum will categorically say you must go to a top school, but if you are not going to attend a top school, the game changes and you need to meet a few requirements for it not to be a life-ruining decision.

Among other things, some of these requirements are that you have legitimate ties to the region the school places its students into, that you have a full ride or will graduate with a debt load that doesn't exceed your expected first year salary (which at non-T14 schools is generally about 60K, tops), that you have a legitimately shitty career outlook with few desirable and attainable alternatives, and that, for this particular region you want to be in (the one you have legit ties to), you are not attending a dumpster fire. More than 40% of WVU grads cant find jobs as attorneys ten months after graduation. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/. For Maine, it's more than 50%. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/.

I would not attend Maine under any circumstances. If you have a lot of family in West Virginia and want to practice there for a long time, and you have a full ride there, and you have depressingly few career options and those options are terrible, and if you are content knowing there is basically a coin-flip's chance you'll never become an attorney after four years of no income in pursuit of being an attorney, then I would say WVU is fine.

Otherwise retake or find another career path. Good luck.

Traynor ... I know that would be the consensus for the most part in regard to how people feel about these schools. You're correct in that I have no ties to either region and that may prove to be difficult in finding employment. To me both schools are kind of neck and neck and students seem to have great things to say about both. I visited Maine and they were very nice and really had a good feel. Even the TLS article on them has good things to say. I have not yet visited WVU but an attorney I had at one point graduated from there and was excellent. Overall he had gotten really far in life.

Even though I am smart, etc. I am not meeting the right people on jobs. People keep shafting me in admin work (which is not a bad thing for those who do it as a career) when I can do so much more. I get asked for advice on complex decision-making but at the end of the day I am making folders and labels -- no joke. So I guess you could say I do have depressing career options. I'll think about what you said and vaya con dios.

urbanist11 wrote:

ms2dai wrote: http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/jobs/2014/

GPA and LSAT suck. Unfortunately went to a college that made it a priority to fail or give low scores. So there was an upward trend in my grades but nothing major. The LSAT score is really low as well but potential wise these two schools are willing to work with me. Currently in MD so both of these would require a move. Goals long term involve immigration law.

Thanks but I am definitely going to one of these schools and will be doing the best I can be employed afterwards. Neither is not an option.

Well if you already have your mind set there's not much I can do to dissuade you, but I'd say definitely take a long term look at law school. There's no reason to rush into school this year as opposed to sitting out and retaking (or even just taking in October since you'd be fine for this cycle). If you are currently in MD, why WV or Maine? Do you want to settle in either of these states, because that's what you're looking at. More importantly, how much debt will you be taking on? For the cost of out of state tuition, you're looking at a lot of financial risk for a coin flip chance at a job.

I'm sure you will try hard in law school - most people do. But without concrete connections to either state or knowing people in either respective market, I feel like you're taking a big risk.

Just my two cents as a 0L.[/quote]

Those are the schools that have accepted me so far. I'm not against moving as I really have no ties in MD. I know that law school is pricey so although I am not willing to take on a lot I do understand where you are coming from. So you're saying that it's really about who you know? I'll think about that because I have gotten into some organizations that were "who you know" places and I didn't know anyone. I guess it's the luck of the draw...

pancakes3 wrote:You have a right to go to law school, absolutely. However you're not owed anything when it comes to getting a job. The market is rough out there. There are twice as many students as there are jobs - and most those jobs are really terrible, boring, low-paying jobs.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2 ... el-income/

Yikes this article puts some reality in the picture. Something to think about overall for sure...

unsweetened wrote:I'm originally from MD and went to WVU for undergrad. It's low cost of living and much easier to establish ties in WV. The problem that I ran into is that WV as a whole has little in the way of economic opportunity, so I left.

Hey unsweetened, were you able to find work elsewhere within a decent amount of time? Interesting though ... I've seen on some of its reporting that some have found employment in DC so maybe there is hope???

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TheSpanishMain wrote:

ms2dai wrote:
Thanks but I am definitely going to one of these schools and will be doing the best I can be employed afterwards. Neither is not an option.

If you're willing to do "the best you can" to be employed after law school, why are you not willing to focus that energy on the LSAT? Why are you settling for a score that, in your own words, sucks?

ms2dai wrote: They are both the only law schools in their respective states too ... hmm...

And yet both still have a huge percentage of unemployed graduates. That should tell you something. More than half of Maine students come up with nothing. You're probably in a worse position than most, too, since you're not even from the state, and it's a small, insular market. Why do you, the outsider, expect to fare better than locals?

Even if I focused on the LSAT I may get the same score. Same thing happened with the SAT. In different programs for SAT excellence and bombed it. Could have saved that money. I test better under different circumstances. I know for many schools it's a risk to accept me but I'm not that type of student. Just makes me look bad. I don't know why I think I will fare better ... I guess I'm hopeful that something will come up in some state.

ms2dai wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:there are essentially no people who should be seriously considering this mix of schools. nobody on this forum will categorically say you must go to a top school, but if you are not going to attend a top school, the game changes and you need to meet a few requirements for it not to be a life-ruining decision.

Among other things, some of these requirements are that you have legitimate ties to the region the school places its students into, that you have a full ride or will graduate with a debt load that doesn't exceed your expected first year salary (which at non-T14 schools is generally about 60K, tops), that you have a legitimately shitty career outlook with few desirable and attainable alternatives, and that, for this particular region you want to be in (the one you have legit ties to), you are not attending a dumpster fire. More than 40% of WVU grads cant find jobs as attorneys ten months after graduation. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/. For Maine, it's more than 50%. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/.

I would not attend Maine under any circumstances. If you have a lot of family in West Virginia and want to practice there for a long time, and you have a full ride there, and you have depressingly few career options and those options are terrible, and if you are content knowing there is basically a coin-flip's chance you'll never become an attorney after four years of no income in pursuit of being an attorney, then I would say WVU is fine.

Otherwise retake or find another career path. Good luck.

Traynor ... I know that would be the consensus for the most part in regard to how people feel about these schools. You're correct in that I have no ties to either region and that may prove to be difficult in finding employment. To me both schools are kind of neck and neck and students seem to have great things to say about both. I visited Maine and they were very nice and really had a good feel. Even the TLS article on them has good things to say. I have not yet visited WVU but an attorney I had at one point graduated from there and was excellent. Overall he had gotten really far in life.

hey kid it's your funeral. can't say you weren't warned.

ms2dai wrote:
Even if I focused on the LSAT I may get the same score.

Well, sure. By the same logic, even if you put forth a lot of effort in law school, you may end up with poor grades and no job. The curve ensures that some students WILL get crappy grades. It's not like undergrad. At least with the LSAT, you won't be in a mountain of debt if you make an attempt and it doesn't work out.

You seem bound and determined to do this, even though you have poor numbers and you're just "hopeful that something will come up in some state." This is not a great plan. I'm not saying that to be mean: I just don't think this is the best move for you at the moment. If you do decide to take the leap, though, best of luck.

ms2dai wrote: Even if I focused on the LSAT I may get the same score. Same thing happened with the SAT. In different programs for SAT excellence and bombed it. Could have saved that money. I test better under different circumstances. I know for many schools it's a risk to accept me but I'm not that type of student. Just makes me look bad. I don't know why I think I will fare better ... I guess I'm hopeful that something will come up in some state.

Law school classes do not give participation points and don't care how hard you work, or what type of student you are. You have 1 final that accounts for 100% of your grade. That's it. At a school like Maine or WVU, if you bomb even 1 test out of the 6-8 exams your first year, your entire legal career will be in jeopardy.

Everybody who's going to be in the top x% of the class that gets a job hustles as hard as you do (or more), and everyone has the same 24 hrs to work with.

On top of that, with a forced curve, there could be no significant difference between a B-exam and an A-exam.

This isn't meant to scare you. It's just reality.

In Med School, if you graduate, even at the bottom of your class, you still get to be a doctor and get paid as such. This is not the case for law school. If you graduate even at the bottom half of a school like Maine or WVU, you don't get to be a lawyer. Period. Full stop. And you have $180,000 in student loans to pay back.

So yeah, you should go ahead and "waste" that money on as many LSAT retakes as necessary. Also, hopefully you'll put in more fervor studying for the LSAT now than you did for the LSAT as a 16 year old, now that you're more mature. You should also be studying smarter. There are a lot of guides on this site that will really help you out. Just taking a Kaplan class or whatever really isn't going to cut it. You've got to put in work - and if you're not willing to put in the work for the LSAT, chances are you're not going to be willing to put in the work at Maine or WVU either and end up with crap grades and an ass-ton of debt to show for it.

ms2dai wrote:

unsweetened wrote:I'm originally from MD and went to WVU for undergrad. It's low cost of living and much easier to establish ties in WV. The problem that I ran into is that WV as a whole has little in the way of economic opportunity, so I left.

Hey unsweetened, were you able to find work elsewhere within a decent amount of time? Interesting though ... I've seen on some of its reporting that some have found employment in DC so maybe there is hope???

I got a job in California six months after graduating, but it's undergrad and many of those rules don't necessarily apply to law school. A lot of WVU students are from Maryland, DC, and Virginia, so they most likely have very strong ties to those areas. Getting into DC would be tough - you would be competing for jobs with grads from Georgetown, UVA, and Duke that also have ties to DC. I guess you could call a 4/129 chance of landing in DC hopeful, but take it as you will.
If you can re-take, do it. Get a tutor if you have to. Spending the money for a re-take, study materials, or even a tutor is pretty smart when it means better schools open up and you can get scholarship $$$.

If you have your mind set on one or the other, WVU looks like a better option.
http://www.lstscorereports.com/compare/wvu/maine/
At a glance, it's cheaper and employment numbers are slightly better.
The undergrad women are generally very attractive and Morgantown is a great gameday environment as well (but these are terrible reasons to attend law school there).

urbanist11 wrote:

ms2dai wrote:Those are the schools that have accepted me so far. I'm not against moving as I really have no ties in MD. I know that law school is pricey so although I am not willing to take on a lot I do understand where you are coming from. So you're saying that it's really about who you know? I'll think about that because I have gotten into some organizations that were "who you know" places and I didn't know anyone. I guess it's the luck of the draw...

Hard for me to say with complete certainty since I'm not familiar with WV or Maine legal markets but I'd be willing to bet the hiring process is fairly insular and that people with connections to the area have an easier time getting jobs. Either way, neither of these degrees is going to be very portable, so you'd have to be content with living in these states.

**Sigh** Thanks anyway

Traynor Brah wrote:

ms2dai wrote:

Traynor Brah wrote:there are essentially no people who should be seriously considering this mix of schools. nobody on this forum will categorically say you must go to a top school, but if you are not going to attend a top school, the game changes and you need to meet a few requirements for it not to be a life-ruining decision.

Among other things, some of these requirements are that you have legitimate ties to the region the school places its students into, that you have a full ride or will graduate with a debt load that doesn't exceed your expected first year salary (which at non-T14 schools is generally about 60K, tops), that you have a legitimately shitty career outlook with few desirable and attainable alternatives, and that, for this particular region you want to be in (the one you have legit ties to), you are not attending a dumpster fire. More than 40% of WVU grads cant find jobs as attorneys ten months after graduation. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wvu/2014/. For Maine, it's more than 50%. http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/maine/2014/.

I would not attend Maine under any circumstances. If you have a lot of family in West Virginia and want to practice there for a long time, and you have a full ride there, and you have depressingly few career options and those options are terrible, and if you are content knowing there is basically a coin-flip's chance you'll never become an attorney after four years of no income in pursuit of being an attorney, then I would say WVU is fine.

Otherwise retake or find another career path. Good luck.

Traynor ... I know that would be the consensus for the most part in regard to how people feel about these schools. You're correct in that I have no ties to either region and that may prove to be difficult in finding employment. To me both schools are kind of neck and neck and students seem to have great things to say about both. I visited Maine and they were very nice and really had a good feel. Even the TLS article on them has good things to say. I have not yet visited WVU but an attorney I had at one point graduated from there and was excellent. Overall he had gotten really far in life.

hey kid it's your funeral. can't say you weren't warned.

I rather go out trying to make something better out of my life. I just need an opinion on where to get that rolling. Sounds like either choice is not a choice from the TLS folks.

TheSpanishMain wrote:

ms2dai wrote:
Even if I focused on the LSAT I may get the same score.

Well, sure. By the same logic, even if you put forth a lot of effort in law school, you may end up with poor grades and no job. The curve ensures that some students WILL get crappy grades. It's not like undergrad. At least with the LSAT, you won't be in a mountain of debt if you make an attempt and it doesn't work out.

You seem bound and determined to do this, even though you have poor numbers and you're just "hopeful that something will come up in some state." This is not a great plan. I'm not saying that to be mean: I just don't think this is the best move for you at the moment. If you do decide to take the leap, though, best of luck.

I did a program this summer and did really well. Ended up being ranked pretty decently. Unfortunately what I did in that program may not count to some of the schools so my hope is that by showing what I can do 1L year, I will get some better scholly opportunities the subsequent years. People don't want to necessarily take the chance and I get it because it's all a business. I'm determined to get through this though and will make lemonade out of the lemons if that is what is gets to but I'm hoping it won't. I needed to hear all sides of the situation. Thanks for providing that.