How far down the ladder does LS at sticker become an objectively bad decision? Forum

[lavarman84]

Can certainly argue it is. Average prospective Yale law student probably has full scholarship offers to one or more of CCNPDCV.

Whether or not it's a bad decision depends on their goals and outcome.

First of all, the average prospective YLS student definitely does not have a full scholarship to one of those schools on your list. Many do, and I think the avg prospective YLS gets some money to multiple schools on that list, but I don't think most get full scholarships.

Second of all, the fact that you have to start looking into particular folk's goals and outcomes makes it not an objectively bad decision to go to YLS at sticker. It may be a subjectively bad decision for some to choose YLS over, say, Duke with a fully scholarship (although I suspect it isn't for most), but that's a different question.

Yale is the toughest law school to get into. I don't think I'm overstating things by saying the average Yale admit could have gotten a full scholarship to one of those 7 schools. Yale's medians are a 3.91 GPA and a 173 LSAT.

And I'm not going to waste time arguing semantics over objectively bad decision vs. subjectively bad decision. With the way you're defining it, I can claim most law schools aren't an "objectively" bad decision at sticker.

I went to HYS. Admissions don't work nearly as mechanically as most on TLS seem to think, ESPECIALLY at YS. It may well be the case that the average Yale student could have gotten a full scholarship to one of those schools, e.g., that it would have surprised nobody, but that does not change the fact that many if not most Yale students aren't actually turning down full rides at those schools. In any event, even if it is an objectively better decision to attend Penn with a full ride over Yale at sticker (and I don't think it is for many, if not most, students), that doesn't make Yale at sticker an objectively or subjectively bad decision, even for those who have Penn at full ride as an option. That's probably the biggest fault in your logic.

The way I'm defining the question is the way that the question was phrased (or at least as close to the way the question was phrased as I could). And I'm not sure that the majority of law schools are an "objectively" bad decision at sticker. That doesn't mean that most law schools are the best possible decision for most of the students who go there (or even one of the better decisions available)--but that's a different question.

Fine. Not worth the argument. You aren't making the best decision.

[Elston Gunn]

I paid essentially sticker at Y and I feel pretty good about it. I'm just basically never going to pay it back.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS:
just graduated
sticker was a lot less back then
I wouldn't advise many people to do the same thing

How unusual would you say you are in this? (From my own experience, I'd say this is not at all unusual.)

Well, I don't think there are actually that many people at Yale with $200k+ debt. Most people either get some aid or a lot of help from family, so I'm at least unusual in that sense.

I don't know many (any?) people who regret the decisions primarily because of the debt, though I know lots who regret coming to law school. I imagine it'll also be a lot different after a few years in the real world.

[jbagelboy]

I paid essentially sticker at Y and I feel pretty good about it. I'm just basically never going to pay it back.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS:
just graduated
sticker was a lot less back then
I wouldn't advise many people to do the same thing

How unusual would you say you are in this? (From my own experience, I'd say this is not at all unusual.)

Well, I don't think there are actually that many people at Yale with $200k+ debt. Most people either get some aid or a lot of help from family, so I'm at least unusual in that sense.

I don't know many (any?) people who regret the decisions primarily because of the debt, though I know lots who regret coming to law school. I imagine it'll also be a lot different after a few years in the real world.

I too know several YLS students who regret going to law school, but as you say, not because of debt; usually they just realize one of their other options (and they all had other options) would have been more fulfilling/less tedious.

[Johann]

I paid essentially sticker at Y and I feel pretty good about it. I'm just basically never going to pay it back.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS:
just graduated
sticker was a lot less back then
I wouldn't advise many people to do the same thing

How unusual would you say you are in this? (From my own experience, I'd say this is not at all unusual.)

Well, I don't think there are actually that many people at Yale with $200k+ debt. Most people either get some aid or a lot of help from family, so I'm at least unusual in that sense.

I don't know many (any?) people who regret the decisions primarily because of the debt, though I know lots who regret coming to law school. I imagine it'll also be a lot different after a few years in the real world.

Regretting Yale at sticker is weak. If that's the case, you are just too risk averse to debt etc. A 200k investment spread over the rest of your career (30-60 years) for the chance at plenty of unicorn jobs. I don't even regret my debt, I regret going to the field of law. But I don't think I'd regret the field if I was at Yale.

[Elston Gunn]

I too know several YLS students who regret going to law school, but as you say, not because of debt; usually they just realize one of their other options (and they all had other options) would have been more fulfilling/less tedious.

Yep.

Regretting Yale at sticker is weak. If that's the case, you are just too risk averse to debt etc. A 200k investment spread over the rest of your career (30-60 years) for the chance at plenty of unicorn jobs. I don't even regret my debt, I regret going to the field of law. But I don't think I'd regret the field if I was at Yale.

Basically, with the caveat that it's still like half the class or more that goes to biglaw. I do think people feel and have more career flexibility though. A lot of why I'm happy is, while I'm not doing a real unicorn job, I am going to a job I probably never would have gotten from a different school, in a niche area I'm excited about, which I probably wouldn't have been able to get into at all otherwise. Is all that "objectively" worth the money? I guess not, but I don't have any regrets (yet).

[Mack.Hambleton]

^can you elaborate on what type of job that is

[Elston Gunn]

^can you elaborate on what type of job that is

Regulatory work in DC. I'm talking about DC Biglaw for now, though I'm clerking first and am still mulling trying to go straight to the gov.

[BiglawAssociate]

Yale. How is this even a question?

The most important thing in life (besides health) is making lots of money so you can retire early and do whatever the fuck you want for most of your life. Unfortunately, law doesn't make you remotely rich and works you to death. The best thing for me that came out of law school was finding my spouse, who also happened to be rich. Law itself is a festering shitbucket attractive in the long term only to poor people. The "high paying" associate law jobs are only high paying to poors who have no perspective.

[A. Nony Mouse]

What if you actually are a poor, dude?

[Johann]

I too know several YLS students who regret going to law school, but as you say, not because of debt; usually they just realize one of their other options (and they all had other options) would have been more fulfilling/less tedious.

Yep.

Regretting Yale at sticker is weak. If that's the case, you are just too risk averse to debt etc. A 200k investment spread over the rest of your career (30-60 years) for the chance at plenty of unicorn jobs. I don't even regret my debt, I regret going to the field of law. But I don't think I'd regret the field if I was at Yale.

Basically, with the caveat that it's still like half the class or more that goes to biglaw. I do think people feel and have more career flexibility though. A lot of why I'm happy is, while I'm not doing a real unicorn job, I am going to a job I probably never would have gotten from a different school, in a niche area I'm excited about, which I probably wouldn't have been able to get into at all otherwise. Is all that "objectively" worth the money? I guess not, but I don't have any regrets (yet).

I think this is the definition of objectively worth the money. I was agreeing with you. You may not like law coming out of Yale like some ofyour friends, but they had no chance at really any other school of liking law. The career flexibility Yale provides is pretty awesome and even a big bad scary sticker price tag when you consider the long term of the investment shouldnt detract from it.

[Mack.Hambleton]

Yale. How is this even a question?

The most important thing in life (besides health) is making lots of money so you can retire early and do whatever the fuck you want for most of your life. Unfortunately, law doesn't make you remotely rich and works you to death. The best thing for me that came out of law school was finding my spouse, who also happened to be rich. Law itself is a festering shitbucket attractive in the long term only to poor people. The "high paying" associate law jobs are only high paying to poors who have no perspective.

I don't think I've ever read a post of yours that didn't mention how much law sucks and how rich your wife is

[Elston Gunn]

I think this is the definition of objectively worth the money. I was agreeing with you. You may not like law coming out of Yale like some ofyour friends, but they had no chance at really any other school of liking law. The career flexibility Yale provides is pretty awesome and even a big bad scary sticker price tag when you consider the long term of the investment shouldnt detract from it.

Oh yeah, I know you were agreeing. I was just preemptively disagreeing with everyone who points out (reasonably) that most YLSers just do big law anyway.

[Nomo]

When I graduated from college in 2008 it seemed impossible for a liberal arts major from a no-name school to get a decent job. But seven years later I'm amazed at how many of these people found their way into good jobs, with middle class salaries, and real promotion potential. Its OK to get stuck in what looks like a dead end job after undergrad. If you are smart enough to get a 160 on the LSAT, and hard working enough to get through law school, then you're probably going to find your way.

EXACTLY. The thing that frustrates me about framing this question as "liberal arts major, must go to law school, only other option is cashier" is the assumption that the job you get immediately after graduation defines you forever. Liberal arts majors are not stuck with law school as their only option, even if, yes, the jobs you can get straight out are crappy. People work crappy jobs, develop skills, learn about what's out there, and develop a career path. You don't need to jump onto the predefined path of law school to end up in a decent place. No, you're probably not going to be making $160k at 25. But if that's the only way you can define a successful career you're thinking way too narrowly.

(I realize some of this sounds kind of bootstraps/boomer-y, but seriously, the vast majority of people don't walk into great jobs that they'll do for the rest of their life coming out of undergrad. That's not a problem; you don't need law school to "fix" that situation. You need to work and learn how to do shit and get to know people/industries.)

Having said that, I should say I'm not saying no one should ever go to law school K-JD - just that they shouldn't do so only because they think that's the only way they can get a decent job. (That's also a great recipe for feeling trapped if you end up in law but hate it.)

This sounds like that recent article by that Emory law school prof in I believe the NYT defending law school because even with high debt/no big law, lawyers eventually make it (and have better salary growth than most professions).

But its different. We aren't encouraging anyone to get a liberal arts degree or saying that they will have better wage growth than people in other majors. We certainly aren't encouraging anyone to pay 40k a year to get a liberal arts degree from a good, but not great private school. What we are saying is that thousands of law graduates never get legal jobs, and end up in the same place they would've been if they had avoided law school altogether (except with more debt and a little depression). And even for those who do get legal jobs the upward wage growth doesn't justify sticker debt. If law school was close to free and the biggest cost was spending three years out of the labor force then low starting wages probably wouldn't be a problem.

[krads153]

When I graduated from college in 2008 it seemed impossible for a liberal arts major from a no-name school to get a decent job. But seven years later I'm amazed at how many of these people found their way into good jobs, with middle class salaries, and real promotion potential. Its OK to get stuck in what looks like a dead end job after undergrad. If you are smart enough to get a 160 on the LSAT, and hard working enough to get through law school, then you're probably going to find your way.

EXACTLY. The thing that frustrates me about framing this question as "liberal arts major, must go to law school, only other option is cashier" is the assumption that the job you get immediately after graduation defines you forever. Liberal arts majors are not stuck with law school as their only option, even if, yes, the jobs you can get straight out are crappy. People work crappy jobs, develop skills, learn about what's out there, and develop a career path. You don't need to jump onto the predefined path of law school to end up in a decent place. No, you're probably not going to be making $160k at 25. But if that's the only way you can define a successful career you're thinking way too narrowly.

(I realize some of this sounds kind of bootstraps/boomer-y, but seriously, the vast majority of people don't walk into great jobs that they'll do for the rest of their life coming out of undergrad. That's not a problem; you don't need law school to "fix" that situation. You need to work and learn how to do shit and get to know people/industries.)

Having said that, I should say I'm not saying no one should ever go to law school K-JD - just that they shouldn't do so only because they think that's the only way they can get a decent job. (That's also a great recipe for feeling trapped if you end up in law but hate it.)

This sounds like that recent article by that Emory law school prof in I believe the NYT defending law school because even with high debt/no big law, lawyers eventually make it (and have better salary growth than most professions).

But its different. We aren't encouraging anyone to get a liberal arts degree or saying that they will have better wage growth than people in other majors. We certainly aren't encouraging anyone to pay 40k a year to get a liberal arts degree from a good, but not great private school. What we are saying is that thousands of law graduates never get legal jobs, and end up in the same place they would've been if they had avoided law school altogether (except with more debt and a little depression). And even for those who do get legal jobs the upward wage growth doesn't justify sticker debt. If law school was close to free and the biggest cost was spending three years out of the labor force then low starting wages probably wouldn't be a problem.

Also, not to mention the high attrition rates out of law because they realize it's not for them (after spending 200k on an education and many years in school and working)....I'm only a few years out and about a quarter of my friends have already left the legal profession.

You should really figure out if this is what you want to do before you start law school. I recommend everyone work as a paralegal before going to law school. You should only go to any graduate school that isn't 100% funded if you know for sure that this is what you want to do. Otherwise you waste a ton of time and money just to start back at square one after a few years.

[HLSorBust]

Yale. How is this even a question?

The most important thing in life (besides health) is making lots of money so you can retire early and do whatever the fuck you want for most of your life. Unfortunately, law doesn't make you remotely rich and works you to death. The best thing for me that came out of law school was finding my spouse, who also happened to be rich. Law itself is a festering shitbucket attractive in the long term only to poor people. The "high paying" associate law jobs are only high paying to poors who have no perspective.

You are a fucking tool, dude.