Top Law Schools

Hi TSL friends,

I'm looking for advice on where to apply. I've been hearing some things from other lawyers and law students that are freaking me out about the cost of going to law school (I am aware how much law school costs).

I am planning on applying to most of the t20. I've seen that George Washington offers a full scholarship for ED. Would that be a good choice? I could potentially get into better schools, but cost is important to me.

LSAT - 168
GPA - 3.8

You have good enough stats that EDing GWU would be a waste. Blanket most of the T20 and you should be able to negotiate scholarships and get a much better outcome than GWU.

Great info ab your chances here

Apply broadly. A retake would probably be a good idea. Are you a K-JD? Probably should get some work experience first if you are.

Mullens wrote:You have good enough stats that EDing GWU would be a waste. Blanket most of the T20 and you should be able to negotiate scholarships and get a much better outcome than GWU.

I've heard arguments that GW is both a great and an awful school. I am interested why you believe it to be a waste of time. Full disclosure, I am not terribly well informed about all the schools in the t20.

As well, it is hard for me to imagine that I would receive better offers at higher schools (that's not to say I am guaranteed to get in as an ED anyway).

Kratos wrote:Great info ab your chances here

Apply broadly. A retake would probably be a good idea. Are you a K-JD? Probably should get some work experience first if you are.

I am a K-JD. I don't think I will retake the exam as I spent considerable time studying for it and I am satisfied with the score (though I might be more satisfied with a better score ha).

I am not sure what work experience I could get other than teaching (I will be done with my history degree this winter). I work 35+ hours a week as a delivery driver currently.

UOI4430 wrote:

Kratos wrote:Great info ab your chances here

Apply broadly. A retake would probably be a good idea. Are you a K-JD? Probably should get some work experience first if you are.

I am a K-JD. I don't think I will retake the exam as I spent considerable time studying for it and I am satisfied with the score (though I might be more satisfied with a better score ha).

I am not sure what work experience I could get other than teaching (I will be done with my history degree this winter). I work 35+ hours a week as a delivery driver currently.

With that GPA you could definitely get a good job somewhere. Apply to paralegal positions at biglaw firms. That would be great to show you what you'll be doing and also if you like it.

Also look at lawschooltransparency to see the job statistics of the different schools.

I've seen a few posts about these paralegal positions at biglaw firms being a good place to witness the suck of biglaw.

I've also seen a few posts claiming they don't require a paralegal certificate.

Can you elaborate a little bit more on what you know of these positions?

UOI4430 wrote:

Mullens wrote:You have good enough stats that EDing GWU would be a waste. Blanket most of the T20 and you should be able to negotiate scholarships and get a much better outcome than GWU.

I've heard arguments that GW is both a great and an awful school. I am interested why you believe it to be a waste of time. Full disclosure, I am not terribly well informed about all the schools in the t20.

As well, it is hard for me to imagine that I would receive better offers at higher schools (that's not to say I am guaranteed to get in as an ED anyway).

GW only has a 32.4% biglaw+clerkship score, compared to 50%+ for most of the T14. A significant portion of those people at GW will be patent bar eligible. DC is also a very expensive place to live and even with full-tuition, you could be looking at about 100k of debt for living expenses after 3 years.

You are over both medians at most of the lower T14 and that will yield you solid scholarships. The difference between a 75% scholarship at a T14 in a cheaper city and GW is negligible and the outcomes are substantially different. If you apply broadly and negotiate your scholarships well, you are almost guaranteed a better outcome than GW. If this doesn't work out for you this cycle, you can always sit out a year and retake for better options.

DON'T ED GWU WITH YOUR NUMBERS.

Helioze wrote:I've seen a few posts about these paralegal positions at biglaw firms being a good place to witness the suck of biglaw.

I've also seen a few posts claiming they don't require a paralegal certificate.

Can you elaborate a little bit more on what you know of these positions?

Biglaw firms hire recent college grads for paralegal positions (or legal assistant, etc.) and these do not require a paralegal certificate because they aren't intended for career paralegals. Most firms require a two year commitment. You can just look on a firms website under careers, and then look at professional staff or whatever.

Mullens wrote:

UOI4430 wrote:

Mullens wrote:You have good enough stats that EDing GWU would be a waste. Blanket most of the T20 and you should be able to negotiate scholarships and get a much better outcome than GWU.

I've heard arguments that GW is both a great and an awful school. I am interested why you believe it to be a waste of time. Full disclosure, I am not terribly well informed about all the schools in the t20.

As well, it is hard for me to imagine that I would receive better offers at higher schools (that's not to say I am guaranteed to get in as an ED anyway).

GW only has a 32.4% biglaw+clerkship score, compared to 50%+ for most of the T14. A significant portion of those people at GW will be patent bar eligible. DC is also a very expensive place to live and even with full-tuition, you could be looking at about 100k of debt for living expenses after 3 years.

You are over both medians at most of the lower T14 and that will yield you solid scholarships. The difference between a 75% scholarship at a T14 in a cheaper city and GW is negligible and the outcomes are substantially different. If you apply broadly and negotiate your scholarships well, you are almost guaranteed a better outcome than GW. If this doesn't work out for you this cycle, you can always sit out a year and retake for better options.

DON'T ED GWU WITH YOUR NUMBERS.

Thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it. Like I said before, I am a bit uniformed and I'm trying to do as much research as I can.

Is there a good source of information concerning negotiating law school offers? Most of what I have found searching google is too general to be of any use. Is there a "rule of thumb" for how much a prospective student can negotiate for? I realize that any individual might receive vastly different offers.

Biglaw firms hire recent college grads for paralegal positions (or legal assistant, etc.) and these do not require a paralegal certificate because they aren't intended for career paralegals. Most firms require a two year commitment. You can just look on a firms website under careers, and then look at professional staff or whatever.[/quote]

How do they require a two year commitment?

yea wouldn't that violate the 13th amendment?

Helioze wrote:Biglaw firms hire recent college grads for paralegal positions (or legal assistant, etc.) and these do not require a paralegal certificate because they aren't intended for career paralegals. Most firms require a two year commitment. You can just look on a firms website under careers, and then look at professional staff or whatever.

How do they require a two year commitment?[/quote]
I mean you asked for more info and I gave more info I think you're perfectly capable of looking at firm websites now and figuring this out. Obviously you can quit, they're not going to handcuff you to a chair.

UOI4430 wrote:

Mullens wrote:

UOI4430 wrote:

Mullens wrote:You have good enough stats that EDing GWU would be a waste. Blanket most of the T20 and you should be able to negotiate scholarships and get a much better outcome than GWU.

I've heard arguments that GW is both a great and an awful school. I am interested why you believe it to be a waste of time. Full disclosure, I am not terribly well informed about all the schools in the t20.

As well, it is hard for me to imagine that I would receive better offers at higher schools (that's not to say I am guaranteed to get in as an ED anyway).

GW only has a 32.4% biglaw+clerkship score, compared to 50%+ for most of the T14. A significant portion of those people at GW will be patent bar eligible. DC is also a very expensive place to live and even with full-tuition, you could be looking at about 100k of debt for living expenses after 3 years.

You are over both medians at most of the lower T14 and that will yield you solid scholarships. The difference between a 75% scholarship at a T14 in a cheaper city and GW is negligible and the outcomes are substantially different. If you apply broadly and negotiate your scholarships well, you are almost guaranteed a better outcome than GW. If this doesn't work out for you this cycle, you can always sit out a year and retake for better options.

DON'T ED GWU WITH YOUR NUMBERS.

Thank you for the information. I truly appreciate it. Like I said before, I am a bit uniformed and I'm trying to do as much research as I can.

Is there a good source of information concerning negotiating law school offers? Most of what I have found searching google is too general to be of any use. Is there a "rule of thumb" for how much a prospective student can negotiate for? I realize that any individual might receive vastly different offers.

There's some good threads about this on TLS and I suggest you use the search function at the bottom to look for them. Most schools have forms you fill out with other scholarship offers to request more money. There are also more informal ways of doing it just by emailing certain people at schools. It works though and i know people who were able to get 45k+ bumps in scholarships (over 3 years) by doing this. I know Berkeley only matches from an enumerated list of schools, but most others will consider offers from close peer schools or much bigger offers from slightly-lower ranked schools.

I am a pretty recent graduate (2013) and even got my paralegal cert.

Getting a job as a paralegal in a big law firm is not easy, unless you had some experience when you were an undergrad.

you might get it as an intern... but getting a paralegal position at medium sized law firm is difficult here in CA so big law firms are almost impossible.

.

Back to the original question of where to apply, apply broadly. I think you'd have better options than ED'ing GW. If you're super concerned about money, but sure to send an app to WUSTL. They'll likely be very generous given your numbers.

You look good for the T-14 minus HYS+Columbia. If you want to save money on apps, you could probably skip paying for rejection letters at those four.

Dirigo wrote:Back to the original question of where to apply, apply broadly. I think you'd have better options than ED'ing GW. If you're super concerned about money, but sure to send an app to WUSTL. They'll likely be very generous given your numbers.

You look good for the T-14 minus HYS+Columbia. If you want to save money on apps, you could probably skip paying for rejection letters at those four.

idk about looking good, worth applying to MVP on down tho

james.bungles wrote:

Dirigo wrote:Back to the original question of where to apply, apply broadly. I think you'd have better options than ED'ing GW. If you're super concerned about money, but sure to send an app to WUSTL. They'll likely be very generous given your numbers.

You look good for the T-14 minus HYS+Columbia. If you want to save money on apps, you could probably skip paying for rejection letters at those four.

idk about looking good, worth applying to MVP on down tho

Quick Question - What data source is the above graphic pulling from? The reason I ask is that sometimes it seems like the total data presented for a school seems very low (like 7-10 people total for 3-4 cycles). It seems like all of LSN should have more data points than what the graph shows.

james.bungles wrote: idk about looking good, worth applying to MVP on down tho

Ah yes. I edited my statement from "looking good for the lower T14" because OP has a shot at Chicago and NYU, but I forgot to edit out the "good."
Still apply to Chicago and NYU though OP. You have a shot. Your best bets for money are at the lower T14 though.

smile0751 wrote: Quick Question - What data source is the above graphic pulling from? The reason I ask is that sometimes it seems like the total data presented for a school seems very low (like 7-10 people total for 3-4 cycles). It seems like all of LSN should have more data points than what the graph shows.

The data is self-reported. The number of data points is based on the parameters (rangers) specified.
I tend to take mylsn with a grain of salt even though it's a great resource. Standards have loosened in the past couple of years so the outlook is probably less precarious than mylsn projects for you.

Dirigo wrote:

smile0751 wrote: Quick Question - What data source is the above graphic pulling from? The reason I ask is that sometimes it seems like the total data presented for a school seems very low (like 7-10 people total for 3-4 cycles). It seems like all of LSN should have more data points than what the graph shows.

The data is self-reported. The number of data points is based on the parameters (rangers) specified.
I tend to take mylsn with a grain of salt even though it's a great resource. Standards have loosened in the past couple of years so the outlook is probably less precarious than mylsn projects for you.

Makes sense. The reason I asked is because for a LSAT of 168 and a 3.8 GPA (which I'd imagine are fairly common) there still are only 8 data points for a school like Chicago.

I have been on LSN quite a bit, but I have never seen that predictor functionality. Thanks for pointing it out.