Top Law Schools

They renamed from Earl Macke.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140 ... chool.html

reasonable person wrote:They renamed from Earl Macke.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140 ... chool.html

Correction, they renamed from Drexel School of Law, which was renamed from Earle Mack, which was renamed from Drexel College of Law.

3 name changes in 8 years for Drexel..but I don't think Klines gonna have his name removed any time soon

tldr:

(1) Trial lawyer named Kline donated 50 mil to make Drexel a T14

(2) School changed its name to Thomas R. Kline School of Law

Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

Ummm hello Drexel isn't a good school. Why would he do that?

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

See, I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't know if I believe it fully.

It's hard for an institution to buy its way to prestige. Are the people in charge of hiring at Morgan Lewis and ACLU Pa going to be like, "ooh, you know, that big shot pls' lawyer just donated a ton of cash to Drexel and they're using a lot of it on scholarships to attract a higher caliber of student. A Drexel Kline scholar is probably the equivalent of a Toll scholar (Penn). Let's give this Drexel kid an interview?"

Or are they just going to say, "Drexel? Fuck that TTT, where are the penn kids?"

I guess what I'm saying is, the T-14 is like a law of nature, and I'm not sure how much good 50 mil can do. First impressions are tough to get past.

Given that difficulty, why not just waste the money buying MOCK COURT ROOMS or what ever nonsense law schools spend money on?

Skool wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

See, I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't know if I believe it fully.

It's hard for an institution to buy its way to prestige. Are the people in charge of hiring at Morgan Lewis and ACLU Pa going to be like, "ooh, you know, that big shot pls' lawyer just donated a ton of cash to Drexel and they're using a lot of it on scholarships to attract a higher caliber of student. A Drexel Kline scholar is probably the equivalent of a Toll scholar (Penn). Let's give this Drexel kid an interview?"

Or are they just going to say, "Drexel? Fuck that TTT, where are the penn kids?"

I guess what I'm saying is, the T-14 is like a law of nature, and I'm not sure how much good 50 mil can do. First impressions are tough to get past.

Given that difficulty, why not just waste the money buying MOCK COURT ROOMS or what ever nonsense law schools spend money on?

Nobody is arguing that 50 million would be enough to make Drexel a T14. I completely agree with the guy who is saying they should spend that money on scholarships. That would have an impact on medians and improve Drexel's ranking as well as its reputation.

Skool wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

See, I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't know if I believe it fully.

It's hard for an institution to buy its way to prestige. Are the people in charge of hiring at Morgan Lewis and ACLU Pa going to be like, "ooh, you know, that big shot pls' lawyer just donated a ton of cash to Drexel and they're using a lot of it on scholarships to attract a higher caliber of student. A Drexel Kline scholar is probably the equivalent of a Toll scholar (Penn). Let's give this Drexel kid an interview?"

Or are they just going to say, "Drexel? Fuck that TTT, where are the penn kids?"

I guess what I'm saying is, the T-14 is like a law of nature, and I'm not sure how much good 50 mil can do. First impressions are tough to get past.

Given that difficulty, why not just waste the money buying MOCK COURT ROOMS or what ever nonsense law schools spend money on?

T-14 opens doors, but people hire you, not your law school.

If they drastically improved the quality of their students those students would get jobs and the schools rankings and reputation would improve. But yeah no one is saying it would be T-14.

Kline's gift is the fourth-largest ever to a U.S. law school, Drexel said. The largest was a $130 million contribution to the University of Arizona law school in 1999 from broadcasting executive James Rogers; next is a $100 million gift from Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan to the law school of Ave Maria University in Florida; in third place is a $55 million gift to the Chapman University law school from real estate developer Dale E. Fowler and his wife, Sarah Ann

Serious question: did any of these law schools see notable boosts in medians/preftige from these massive donations? Or did they, too, build mock trial buildings?

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

Skool wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

See, I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't know if I believe it fully.

It's hard for an institution to buy its way to prestige. Are the people in charge of hiring at Morgan Lewis and ACLU Pa going to be like, "ooh, you know, that big shot pls' lawyer just donated a ton of cash to Drexel and they're using a lot of it on scholarships to attract a higher caliber of student. A Drexel Kline scholar is probably the equivalent of a Toll scholar (Penn). Let's give this Drexel kid an interview?"

Or are they just going to say, "Drexel? Fuck that TTT, where are the penn kids?"

I guess what I'm saying is, the T-14 is like a law of nature, and I'm not sure how much good 50 mil can do. First impressions are tough to get past.

Given that difficulty, why not just waste the money buying MOCK COURT ROOMS or what ever nonsense law schools spend money on?

T-14 opens doors, but people hire you, not your law school.

If they drastically improved the quality of their students those students would get jobs and the schools rankings and reputation would improve. But yeah no one is saying it would be T-14.

I hear your point re top 14. Still the main point is, even if your rank changes, will that really change what employers think about your school and students? Even if Georgetown falls out of the Top 14, it will still keep some of that prestige because everyone associates them with the elite schools. Even if Drexel moves up in the world, there will still be a whiff of TTT about them. So just moving up the rankings won't necessarily (or even probably) mean greater reputation and jobs for your school in the eyes of employers, the only people whose opinions really matter. (this on the assumption that getting jobs is a function of a schools prestige).

And even if you moved up rankings, who cares? There's still a mile long line of below median Georgetown/ Penn/ Cornell kids ahead of your students. Is 50 mil in scholarships really going to be enough to move Drexel ahead of them in the struggle to just get a job and survive as a a lawyer?

So if they buy 50 mil worth of better Lsat takers what difference will that make? Why not make it rain on a new dumb building and god knows what else? I just don't see a reason to believe employers will take notice.

DavidConeSplitter wrote:Kline's gift is the fourth-largest ever to a U.S. law school, Drexel said. The largest was a $130 million contribution to the University of Arizona law school in 1999 from broadcasting executive James Rogers; next is a $100 million gift from Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan to the law school of Ave Maria University in Florida; in third place is a $55 million gift to the Chapman University law school from real estate developer Dale E. Fowler and his wife, Sarah Ann

Serious question: did any of these law schools see notable boosts in medians/preftige from these massive donations? Or did they, too, build mock trial buildings?

Good question. I'd be surprised....

100M to Ave Maria? Isn't it unranked?
Guess money doesn't solve everything.

Skool wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:

Skool wrote:

Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:Part of the 50m gift is a giant building in a prime location. Article says the building will need renovations.

I doubt too much will be left to place in a scholarship fund. Too bad for Drexel; how they really move the needle is to place all 50m in a fund for schollys. Fund gets five percent a year, thats 2.5 mil to buy students with good to great numbers. That will change employment, that will eventually change rankings.

40k tuition and 140 students per class now. Even in a really bad year for the fund I bet it clears enough to give 25% of the class full rides. But instead they get a shiny building 21 blocks away from their school where they can get a "practice ready" education.

See, I'm sympathetic to this view, but I don't know if I believe it fully.

It's hard for an institution to buy its way to prestige. Are the people in charge of hiring at Morgan Lewis and ACLU Pa going to be like, "ooh, you know, that big shot pls' lawyer just donated a ton of cash to Drexel and they're using a lot of it on scholarships to attract a higher caliber of student. A Drexel Kline scholar is probably the equivalent of a Toll scholar (Penn). Let's give this Drexel kid an interview?"

Or are they just going to say, "Drexel? Fuck that TTT, where are the penn kids?"

I guess what I'm saying is, the T-14 is like a law of nature, and I'm not sure how much good 50 mil can do. First impressions are tough to get past.

Given that difficulty, why not just waste the money buying MOCK COURT ROOMS or what ever nonsense law schools spend money on?

T-14 opens doors, but people hire you, not your law school.

If they drastically improved the quality of their students those students would get jobs and the schools rankings and reputation would improve. But yeah no one is saying it would be T-14.

I hear your point re top 14. Still the main point is, even if your rank changes, will that really change what employers think about your school and students? Even if Georgetown falls out of the Top 14, it will still keep some of that prestige because everyone associates them with the elite schools. Even if Drexel moves up in the world, there will still be a whiff of TTT about them. So just moving up the rankings won't necessarily (or even probably) mean greater reputation and jobs for your school in the eyes of employers, the only people whose opinions really matter. (this on the assumption that getting jobs is a function of a schools prestige).

And even if you moved up rankings, who cares? There's still a mile long line of below median Georgetown/ Penn/ Cornell kids ahead of your students. Is 50 mil in scholarships really going to be enough to move Drexel ahead of them in the struggle to just get a job and survive as a a lawyer?

So if they buy 50 mil worth of better Lsat takers what difference will that make? Why not make it rain on a new dumb building and god knows what else? I just don't see a reason to believe employers will take notice.

I'm sorry but this is simply terrible logic. This comment could be a flaw question in LR passages. By your reasoning, no school outside of the T14 should ever try to get improve in any way, because Cornell and Penn will always be more prestigious. Look, nobody is saying Drexel is ever going to be a powerhouse law school. But it could definitely do something to improve its reputation and ranking. Being viewed as an up and coming school with a solid student body could presumably help with employment outcomes in the long run. And even if it doesn't, at least Drexel will have improved its medians (and thus ranking), which would put the school on a path of sustainable growth.

Building a new building does what, exactly?

I agree with you Moneytrees, but these things take time and direction.
One of my senior mentors remembers the day when Vandy was not nearly as highly regarded in the legal community as it is now.

wonder how long until drexel "law school" needs a new sugar daddy

Moneytrees wrote: I'm sorry but this is simply terrible logic. This comment could be a flaw question in LR passages. By your reasoning, no school outside of the T14 should ever try to get improve in any way, because Cornell and Penn will always be more prestigious. Look, nobody is saying Drexel is ever going to be a powerhouse law school. But it could definitely do something to improve its reputation and ranking. Being viewed as an up and coming school with a solid student body could presumably help with employment outcomes in the long run. And even if it doesn't, at least Drexel will have improved its medians (and thus ranking), which would put the school on a path of sustainable growth.

Building a new building does what, exactly?

You sound like you're having some reading comp problems yourself.

I didn't say no one should try and improve, I'm just saying for schools like Drexel, it doesn't matter what you do in a hyper saturated market like the one we are experiencing now, so on what rational basis do you decide scholarships over a building? All of this on the assumption that the most important job for a school is training people who actually get to be practicing, competent lawyers. I meet the whole thing with the shrug, some posters seem to think its clear that scholarships are a better course of action and I don't see it.

I'm not saying build a building either. I'm saying, why not?

Your urging to do something invites the whole decks on the titanic thing.

Moneytrees wrote:Being viewed as an up and coming school with a solid student body could presumably help with employment outcomes in the long run. And even if it doesn't, at least Drexel will have improved its medians (and thus ranking), which would put the school on a path of sustainable growth.

If wishes were fishes.

Also, I think the above discussion on the stickiness of reputation is relevant here, changes in ranking not withstanding.

Skool wrote:

Moneytrees wrote: I'm sorry but this is simply terrible logic. This comment could be a flaw question in LR passages. By your reasoning, no school outside of the T14 should ever try to get improve in any way, because Cornell and Penn will always be more prestigious. Look, nobody is saying Drexel is ever going to be a powerhouse law school. But it could definitely do something to improve its reputation and ranking. Being viewed as an up and coming school with a solid student body could presumably help with employment outcomes in the long run. And even if it doesn't, at least Drexel will have improved its medians (and thus ranking), which would put the school on a path of sustainable growth.

Building a new building does what, exactly?

You sound like you're having some reading comp problems yourself.

I didn't say no one should try and improve, I'm just saying for schools like Drexel, it doesn't matter what you do in a hyper saturated market like the one we are experiencing now, so on what rational basis do you decide scholarships over a building? All of this on the assumption that the most important job for a school is training people who actually get to be practicing, competent lawyers. I meet the whole thing with the shrug, some posters seem to think its clear that scholarships are a better course of action and I don't see it.

I'm not saying build a building either. I'm saying, why not?

Your urging to do something invites the whole decks on the titanic thing.

Moneytrees wrote:Being viewed as an up and coming school with a solid student body could presumably help with employment outcomes in the long run. And even if it doesn't, at least Drexel will have improved its medians (and thus ranking), which would put the school on a path of sustainable growth.

If wishes were fishes.

Also, I think the above discussion on the stickiness of reputation is relevant here, changes in ranking not withstanding.

Attempting to improve Drexel's reputation is better than doing nothing. The school exists, for better or for worse, so its administrators should should do what they can to improve the school's reputation and employment outcomes. The money could affect something- medians. Medians are directly tied to how a school is ranked. Therefore, Drexel it could start by using the scholarship funds to attract better applicants and thus move up in the rankings, which would also help better its reputation.

On the topic of employment outcomes, I agree with you that moving up in the rankings wouldn't change anything in the short run for Drexel students. Would jumping up in the rankings result in droves of employers flocking to Drexel? No. Of course not. But moving up in the rankings and having a more qualified student body is a good first step if you are trying to improve your employment numbers. Building a new building is just a PR move that does virtually nothing in the grand scheme of things.