Back-up plan to law school? Forum

[preamble]

Would an EU/US dual citizen fare better avoiding law school in the United States and move to Europe to become a lawyer (solicitor/barrister/etc) through whatever legal certification process in that country? Is the legal field a bloodbath in countries like Ireland to the extent that it is in the United States?

I'd be leaving the US with no undergrad debt or other financial obligations keeping me here.

The reason I ask is that it is harder for me to find articles as colorful and in your face about how terrible the legal field in the US is in regards Ireland. No comparable articles to headlines akin to "Going to law school is the single worst mistake you could make in your entire life" or better yet, all the blogs that frequently use the words "law school" and "shit" in the same sentence -- so I'm a bit stumped.

I read an ATL article about American lawyers in London firms but those individuals had already went to law school in the United States (and somehow miraculously graduated debt free?) and were shipped over by American firms and now they're living it up. I'm interested in doing the equivalent of a JD+bar passage in this country in Ireland.

If such an option viable? Would it be a good route? If I take some courses in the summer, I can graduate at 20 and move right away.

(I'm being a bit erratic because I just spent an hour on a blog called law lemmings and now I'm in the middle of an existential crisis.)

[03152016]

no idea about how things are overseas
sorry, bc i know that's your question
but i want to chime in to say

whether or not attending a us law school is a rational choice comes down to context
most people who attend law school shouldn't, and most people who should are overpaying
an astonishing 43% of law school graduates last year failed to find a legal job
and law students graduate with an average of $100k in debt

attending law school in 2014 is a risky endeavor, which is why you're reading so many bombastic headlines
you can mitigate that risk by attending a top school with a good scholarship
or a regional school with a large/full scholarship
that's why TLS is so persistent in telling people to retake poor LSAT scores, negotiate with schools, and decline bad offers

[preamble]

no idea about how things are overseas
sorry, bc i know that's your question
but i want to chime in to say

whether or not attending a us law school is a rational choice comes down to context
most people who attend law school shouldn't, and most people who should are overpaying
an astonishing 43% of law school graduates last year failed to find a legal job
and law students graduate with an average of $100k in debt

attending law school in 2014 is a risky endeavor, which is why you're reading so many bombastic headlines
you can mitigate that risk by attending a top school with a good scholarship
or a regional school with a large/full scholarship
that's why TLS is so persistent in telling people to retake poor LSAT scores, negotiate with schools, and decline bad offers

I appreciate the input - my plan A so to speak has always been to maintain a high GPA and do whatever it takes to get a kick ass LSAT score. I refuse to be complacent and then pay for it with mediocre/abysmal LS (and later employment) options and massive debt. However, in the instance that I don't get into HYS or a regional school with generous aid, I wanted other options that didn't include Cooley at sticker. I almost get reverse sticker shock looking at how much education costs in the EU. 5k for a Master's. 6k/year for a three year BA. It's crazy (good).

I found out that to be a lawyer in Ireland is basically earning a BA (called an LLB) in Law - its three years (or four for certain positions/careers) and then you jump through some certification hoops and do some apprentice work and whatnot, and then you're legally able to practice law in Ireland. Programs usually cost around 4-9k a year. My issue is that 1) I'm currently getting a BA in Poli Sci that will more or less be rendered useless in pursuing legal work overseas, so when I do move, I have to start at square one and do undergrad over again (not a huge concern but it is time wasted) 2) I have very little understanding of how prestige and pedigree works with Ireland's colleges and the impact it has on the legal field. I know Trinity University in Dublin is the equivalent of Harvard but that's about it; and I don't expect to be able to walk into Trinity and say "I'm here bitches! Sign me up for one of them fancy schmancy law degrees you've got here." I might end up enrolling at the Irish equivalent of the University of Phoenix as a result.

So yeah, that's about it. I'm already debt averse and the decision to attend my current school (a crap public commuter uni) on a full ride over other schools was made so that I might be able to better stomach the huge debt of law school, but even that's giving me anxiety.

[ikethegremlin]

no idea about how things are overseas
sorry, bc i know that's your question
but i want to chime in to say

whether or not attending a us law school is a rational choice comes down to context
most people who attend law school shouldn't, and most people who should are overpaying
an astonishing 43% of law school graduates last year failed to find a legal job
and law students graduate with an average of $100k in debt

attending law school in 2014 is a risky endeavor, which is why you're reading so many bombastic headlines
you can mitigate that risk by attending a top school with a good scholarship
or a regional school with a large/full scholarship
that's why TLS is so persistent in telling people to retake poor LSAT scores, negotiate with schools, and decline bad offers

I appreciate the input - my plan A so to speak has always been to maintain a high GPA and do whatever it takes to get a kick ass LSAT score. I refuse to be complacent and then pay for it with mediocre/abysmal LS (and later employment) options and massive debt. However, in the instance that I don't get into HYS or a regional school with generous aid, I wanted other options that didn't include Cooley at sticker. I almost get reverse sticker shock looking at how much education costs in the EU. 5k for a Master's. 6k/year for a three year BA. It's crazy (good).

I found out that to be a lawyer in Ireland is basically earning a BA (called an LLB) in Law - its three years (or four for certain positions/careers) and then you jump through some certification hoops and do some apprentice work and whatnot, and then you're legally able to practice law in Ireland. Programs usually cost around 4-9k a year. My issue is that 1) I'm currently getting a BA in Poli Sci that will more or less be rendered useless in pursuing legal work overseas, so when I do move, I have to start at square one and do undergrad over again (not a huge concern but it is time wasted) 2) I have very little understanding of how prestige and pedigree works with Ireland's colleges and the impact it has on the legal field. I know Trinity University in Dublin is the equivalent of Harvard but that's about it; and I don't expect to be able to walk into Trinity and say "I'm here bitches! Sign me up for one of them fancy schmancy law degrees you've got here." I might end up enrolling at the Irish equivalent of the University of Phoenix as a result.

So yeah, that's about it. I'm already debt averse and the decision to attend my current school (a crap public commuter uni) on a full ride over other schools was made so that I might be able to better stomach the huge debt of law school, but even that's giving me anxiety.

I don't know why Ireland is your goal - the economy there is DEEPLY screwed up at the moment, and though I don't know specifically about the legal market, I assume it is probably feeling the effects just as much.

Anyway - on to your actual question. If you already have an undergraduate degree, you don't need to do a whole new law BA (in the UK, anyway). You can do a law conversion course which only takes one year. Then, if you want to be a solicitor (non-trial lawyer) you will get a low-paid training job for two years before you are a fully fledged solicitor. If you want to be a Barrister, it's a bit tougher - you look for a pupilage somewhere, and it can work out very nicely but is also extremely risky as you are essentially self employed, as with litigators in the USA - your ability to make money depends on people wanting representation from you.

Prestige of your undergrad institution will probably matter a great deal, as will your grades in the law conversion course. You should be very, very aware though that solicitors in the UK do not get paid nearly as well as they do in the states (though the quality of life is probably higher). American law firms with offices in London pay fairly well but still not at NY 160k level. A friend of mine is working for a very international V5 in London - his 2 year training contract is at 50k, then it will be 100k after he is fully qualified. And that's very very good for the UK - the 5 magic circle firms might come close to paying that, but I suspect their equivalent of 1st year associates are on more like 70/80k, and London isn't cheap. So it's certainly not a direct comparison.

SO basically - if you are currently attending an Ivy league in the US with great name recognition over here in England, I'd say try to graduate with the greatest possible GPA, then come to England and do the one year law conversion course, followed by either the solicitor route or try and become a barrister. BUT if you are capable of that, then I suspect you are capable of getting into a T6 and getting a great biglaw job, in which case all the shit you are hearing doesn't really apply to you.

Remember - the backlash against law, whilst very much justifies, centers really around the elimination of all the marginal cases. If you can get into HYS, CCN, or graduate well above median from Michigan, Berkeley, Penn, UVA, Cornell etc then those articles that have you freaked aren't really talking to you (although they remain a little relevant - everyone is being squeezed). And if you can't do that, what makes you think you will do any better in the UK? It's no better over here, just cheaper to get qualified, but worse paid. Do you really want to end up working for some mid level solicitors office in Slough? (trust me, you don't).

[victory]

All the answers so far are credited, so I'll throw in my $.02 to speak to a small problem:

The reason I ask is that it is harder for me to find articles as colorful and in your face about how terrible the legal field in the US is in regards Ireland. No comparable articles to headlines akin to "Going to law school is the single worst mistake you could make in your entire life" or better yet, all the blogs that frequently use the words "law school" and "shit" in the same sentence -- so I'm a bit stumped.

I read an ATL article about American lawyers in London firms but those individuals had already went to law school in the United States (and somehow miraculously graduated debt free?) and were shipped over by American firms and now they're living it up. I'm interested in doing the equivalent of a JD+bar passage in this country in Ireland.

If such an option viable? Would it be a good route? If I take some courses in the summer, I can graduate at 20 and move right away.

(I'm being a bit erratic because I just spent an hour on a blog called law lemmings and now I'm in the middle of an existential crisis.)

Get off JDU and stop reading about how shitty the legal market is. Take a second to calm down and close whatever the "law lemmings" blog is. (I just checked it out, and it looks like a guy that trolls TTT grads? Something about the University of Vermont law school?) The schools you're looking at (you mentioned the T6) and the rest of the T14 is still pretty solid for landing biglaw, and they're trying to fix what's wrong (first thing that comes to mind is UMich cutting its class size). If anything, it'll be easier to get into those schools with the drop in apps.

You talked about a plan where you maintain a high GPA and kick ass on the LSAT. Do that. Get the numbers to get into a T14, hopefully with $$$, and I guarantee you you'll be better off than a TTT grad. Nobody on TLS is going to tell you it's a good idea to go to Cooley, TJ, Coastal, etc. etc. if you want biglaw (assuming you do; if you don't, specify that somewhere), which is why you're gonna need good grades and a great LSAT score.

If you're really considering going to Ireland because you think the legal market would be better there:
why?
do you have ties there?
It might be a tough market to crack.
It probably won't be a good route to a great job.

Also, you talked about graduating @ 20. Try not to do that if you don't have to (unless you started undergrad when you were 16). Graduate in four years. The T14 already hates KJD's, they hate students who graduate early even more (citation needed--lsn user: proud2b19 or something; there've been quite a few threads about this and the consensus is to not graduate early).

Here're some numbers, check out the rest of the T14 on LST:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva -- UVA, 95.4% employment score, 2.5% under employment

Remember - the backlash against law, whilst very much justifies, centers really around the elimination of all the marginal cases. If you can get into HYS, CCN, or graduate well above median from Michigan, Berkeley, Penn, UVA, Cornell etc then those articles that have you freaked aren't really talking to you (although they remain a little relevant - everyone is being squeezed). And if you can't do that, what makes you think you will do any better in the UK? It's no better over here, just cheaper to get qualified, but worse paid. Do you really want to end up working for some mid level solicitors office in Slough? (trust me, you don't).

TITCR.

[03152016]

All the answers so far are credited, so I'll throw in my $.02 to speak to a small problem:

The reason I ask is that it is harder for me to find articles as colorful and in your face about how terrible the legal field in the US is in regards Ireland. No comparable articles to headlines akin to "Going to law school is the single worst mistake you could make in your entire life" or better yet, all the blogs that frequently use the words "law school" and "shit" in the same sentence -- so I'm a bit stumped.

I read an ATL article about American lawyers in London firms but those individuals had already went to law school in the United States (and somehow miraculously graduated debt free?) and were shipped over by American firms and now they're living it up. I'm interested in doing the equivalent of a JD+bar passage in this country in Ireland.

If such an option viable? Would it be a good route? If I take some courses in the summer, I can graduate at 20 and move right away.

(I'm being a bit erratic because I just spent an hour on a blog called law lemmings and now I'm in the middle of an existential crisis.)

Get off JDU and stop reading about how shitty the legal market is. Take a second to calm down and close whatever the "law lemmings" blog is. (I just checked it out, and it looks like a guy that trolls TTT grads? Something about the University of Vermont law school?) The schools you're looking at (you mentioned the T6) and the rest of the T14 is still pretty solid for landing biglaw, and they're trying to fix what's wrong (first thing that comes to mind is UMich cutting its class size). If anything, it'll be easier to get into those schools with the drop in apps.

You talked about a plan where you maintain a high GPA and kick ass on the LSAT. Do that. Get the numbers to get into a T14, hopefully with $$$, and I guarantee you you'll be better off than a TTT grad. Nobody on TLS is going to tell you it's a good idea to go to Cooley, TJ, Coastal, etc. etc. if you want biglaw (assuming you do; if you don't, specify that somewhere), which is why you're gonna need good grades and a great LSAT score.

If you're really considering going to Ireland because you think the legal market would be better there:
why?
do you have ties there?
It might be a tough market to crack.
It probably won't be a good route to a great job.

Also, you talked about graduating @ 20. Try not to do that if you don't have to (unless you started undergrad when you were 16). Graduate in four years. The T14 already hates KJD's, they hate students who graduate early even more (citation needed--lsn user: proud2b19 or something; there've been quite a few threads about this and the consensus is to not graduate early).

Here're some numbers, check out the rest of the T14 on LST:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva -- UVA, 95.4% employment score, 2.5% under employment

*cough cough* 16.2% school-funded *cough*

[03152016]

no problem w your point generally
but your choice in which t14 to highlight is curious

[victory]

no problem w your point generally
but your choice in which t14 to highlight is curious

Honestly, I just picked the first mid T14 that came to mind. Just wanted some employment data to emphasize that the T14 isn't as bad as other schools ITE.

[preamble]

Oh, I understand that solicitors in Ireland don't make the huge six figure salaries like they do in the Manhattan and Boston big law firms - but I thought the tradeoff would be, while yeah, you wouldn't be making it rain so to speak, but you also don't have any (crushing, crippling) debt; and if lawyers in Ireland on average make enough money to live above the poverty line, I'd be pretty happy. I just want to practice law; not sure exactly what type but I'd probably only consider big law if it was pertinent to me paying down huge loans. I'm not dead set on anything as of right now. The fact that European law firms (or their particular equivalents) are described as much more tranquil than American firms is also a plus.

Harvard Law school published a piece on how in Germany, the "law schools" are all generally on equal footing. Rankings are typically vague and are grouped into categories like "these law schools are great.... and these ones are pretty good too" - but there is no rigid hierarchal categorization of law schools like there is in this country. No clue about Ireland. Similarly, I have no clue about how pedigree based admissions into such programs are. Why, if all the law schools in the land except Yale and Stanford, do not consciously consider undergrad pedigree to an extent that where you went to school would be something actively hurting or helping you (rather than just tip the scale), would Irish legal programs (LLB/BSc or conversion program) seriously consider pedigree of where I went for undergrad? (This is coming off like an attack - it isn't, I'm genuinely curious. I know very little about the economy in Ireland and I'm trying to figure it out.)

As for Ireland being the goal and whatnot - I've always wanted to move to Ireland. I was supposed to move when I was much younger but a bunch of shit happened (illness, death, etc) and we had to stay put. The majority of my family lives in Ireland; the only family I have in the United States is my mother and father actually. I guess those would be my connections. I love Ireland and I feel like I'd be really happy there so long as I was able to find work that catered to my interests at least somewhat and that paid decently. When I talk about to people about moving to Ireland (I don't go into detail about the legal field) they get genuinely confused as to why someone would leave the US for Ireland. They make it sound like I'm leaving the US to live in a shanty in the Congo.

I mentioned early graduation because I thought in this hypothetical situation of having to regroup and restart in Ireland, being younger would be better. I'm currently on a full scholarship that lasts the entire amount of time I need to get my Bachelor's as long as I maintain minimum full credit status (so up to 6 years basically) -- I was planning on dragging out a few semesters for GPA purposes. I know that being way too young will only hurt me in admissions.

[ikethegremlin]

Oh, I understand that solicitors in Ireland don't make the huge six figure salaries like they do in the Manhattan and Boston big law firms - but I thought the tradeoff would be, while yeah, you wouldn't be making it rain so to speak, but you also don't have any (crushing, crippling) debt; and if lawyers in Ireland on average make enough money to live above the poverty line, I'd be pretty happy. I just want to practice law; not sure exactly what type but I'd probably only consider big law if it was pertinent to me paying down huge loans. I'm not dead set on anything as of right now. The fact that European law firms (or their particular equivalents) are described as much more tranquil than American firms is also a plus.

Harvard Law school published a piece on how in Germany, the "law schools" are all generally on equal footing. Rankings are typically vague and are grouped into categories like "these law schools are great.... and these ones are pretty good too" - but there is no rigid hierarchal categorization of law schools like there is in this country. No clue about Ireland. Similarly, I have no clue about how pedigree based admissions into such programs are. Why, if all the law schools in the land except Yale and Stanford, do not consciously consider undergrad pedigree to an extent that where you went to school would be something actively hurting or helping you (rather than just tip the scale), would Irish legal programs (LLB/BSc or conversion program) seriously consider pedigree of where I went for undergrad? (This is coming off like an attack - it isn't, I'm genuinely curious. I know very little about the economy in Ireland and I'm trying to figure it out.)

As for Ireland being the goal and whatnot - I've always wanted to move to Ireland. I was supposed to move when I was much younger but a bunch of shit happened (illness, death, etc) and we had to stay put. The majority of my family lives in Ireland; the only family I have in the United States is my mother and father actually. I guess those would be my connections. I love Ireland and I feel like I'd be really happy there so long as I was able to find work that catered to my interests at least somewhat and that paid decently. When I talk about to people about moving to Ireland (I don't go into detail about the legal field) they get genuinely confused as to why someone would leave the US for Ireland. They make it sound like I'm leaving the US to live in a shanty in the Congo.

I mentioned early graduation because I thought in this hypothetical situation of having to regroup and restart in Ireland, being younger would be better. I'm currently on a full scholarship that lasts the entire amount of time I need to get my Bachelor's as long as I maintain minimum full credit status (so up to 6 years basically) -- I was planning on dragging out a few semesters for GPA purposes. I know that being way too young will only hurt me in admissions.

Listen, only you know you and what makes you happy but I'd raise the following issues:

1. Do you actually know what it's like to live in Ireland? I feel like a lot of Americans with Irish family/connections have a particular view of the place that is not actually reflected in reality. It's different. More culturally different than, say, moving from NY to Texas. They're outwardly extremely friendly, but a very tough culture to really get under the skin of - so you're really committing yourself to something really serious just in terms of moving location.

2. Your Irish law qualification is completely non-transferable, essentially. Republic of Ireland legal knowledge is helpful in.... the RoI. An american JD is great for working abroad - loads of foreign offices of American firms, etc. Similarly, an English law degree will mean you can work in London and then get transfers abroad to foreign offices of UK firms - perhaps coming back to NY or something. (as long as you are into transactional work). The RoI just doesn't have such a big international corporate presence, and so practitioners of it's legal system are less needed elsewhere. You're likely stuck there for the rest of your working life, unless you leave law.

3. Do you REALLY know you want to do law? It's lots of very, very different things under one big umbrella, and the fact that you don't have a specific interest worries me a little, given that you seem to be making some huge decisions based on the pursuit of it. If courtrooms are what appeals to you, then you need to get qualified where you want to practice because that qualification is never transferable. Ten years of amazing courtroom experience in Ireland means jack squat anywhere else in the world, and the same goes for any other country. However, if you dig corporate law then you can get qualified in the USA and then end up working in Paris if it floats your boat - maybe you go in house for some NGO and work all over the place - whatever. But when you say that 'you just want to practice law' that screams 'I don't know what law is yet.' With all due respect.

4. Yes, prestige matters. Prestige matters everywhere, but to a law firm in Dublin it will mean a heck of a lot to say you graduated from Princeton because a) they've heard of it, and b) they know it means you're smart. If you graduated from UofBumblefuck, Kentucky, what do they have to go on? Not much. You certainly are unlikely to get interest from the top few law firms that will pay you anything remotely approaching the salary you would receive in the USA. Look at these numbers: http://www.michaelpage.co.uk/salary-survey/legal.htm
In London - the most expensive and best paid city in Europe, probably, and definitely GB, it takes the elite city practice lawyers on average 6 years (+2 in training, so 8 ) to hit 98k. If you'd just stuck around and gone to Law School in your own country you'd be through law school and well on to paying your loans (if you took a sensible package), and with the freedom of dual citizenship you're about to be set for life, especially if you don't care about money.

5. If what you want is the easy life where you get paid middling sums of money for a more tranquil work environment then you need a time machine. The boomer years are gone and they aren't coming back. All law, even in Europe land of the 40 hour work week, is stressful and time consuming. The difference is that in the USA you are outrageously well compensated early on. Yes, you may have debt. But if you are smart, not too much.

TL;DR
Go live in Ireland for a year or something before you commit to being essentially stuck there FOR EVER. Also bury your head deep in some reading about the practice of law and try and imagine yourself doing doc review in Galway (or if court is where you want to be, spending your days defending/prosecuting morons on drunk driving charges.

[banjo]

I've seen a few articles describing the UK job market as extremely competitive. Here's one from a quick google search: http://allaboutlaw.co.uk/stage/finding- ... g-contract. I know there are more. I've also seen threads saying Australia (which also follows the LLB model) is pretty tough too: --LinkRemoved--. I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland was the same. I imagine tons more people get LLB degrees than get training contracts after graduation.

The difference is that when people with LLBs don't get law jobs, they just go on their merry way and find something else to do. They have a college degree and little to no debt. When people graduate from Hofstra at sticker, they're screwed. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt (plus undergrad debt) and a degree that's viewed with skepticism inside AND outside the legal profession. In the US we also have the problem of private scam schools like Cooley, which fueled a lot of the anger here. Other countries, like Canada, don't have this problem because the provinces don't allow it.

In short, don't read too much into the fact that there's no JDU in Ireland. Things could be just as bad or even worse out there. Study for the LSAT and go to a top US school instead, preferably on a scholarship. Another advantage of going to a US school is that we know a LOT about how these schools place. I could give you extremely detailed data about how Magic Circle firms, for example, recruit at Columbia. If you go off to Ireland, you won't have such granular data. You'll be forced to trust the institutions there, which makes the investment riskier.

[HRomanus]

Take a second to calm down and close whatever the "law lemmings" blog is. (I just checked it out, and it looks like a guy that trolls TTT grads?

Law School Lemmings is actually pretty funny to read. The guy retweets people who post ignorant 0L stuff about law school.