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Hey all,

I wouldn't say I'm in a unique situation, but I'm looking for advice. Right now I'm a year and some change out of college. I worked 20hrs a week throughout college (except my freshman year), first for a private defense contractor and then for a federal government agency. I took mostly night courses, or stacked my classes on tuesdays/thursdays, and worked the rest of the week. I asked the professor I was closest with if she could write me a recommendation, but she said that she didn't think she would be the best to do so, given as we only had one class together, she was a part-time faculty member, and recently retired.

Tbh, I have more experience and relationships with employers than professors, and I'm freaking out about this "academic" recommendation business. I can get a bunch of stellar recommendations from my supervisors, but given the class sizes of my courses in undergrad, not so much from faculty. What do you think I should do?

You're not alone! I worked around 50 hours a week while taking a combination of online, night, and weekend classes. I never had the same professor for more than one course, so I don't really have the nerve to ask a professor to write me an LOR. Plus, I've been out of school for two years so I seriously doubt that any of them would remember me. Hopefully adcom's will overlook our inability to secure an academic LOR due to our work schedules. Glad to see that I'm not the only applicant mildly freaking out about LOR's lol!

sprinky07 wrote:You're not alone! I worked around 50 hours a week while taking a combination of online, night, and weekend classes. I never had the same professor for more than one course, so I don't really have the nerve to ask a professor to write me an LOR. Plus, I've been out of school for two years so I seriously doubt that any of them would remember me. Hopefully adcom's will overlook our inability to secure an academic LOR due to our work schedules. Glad to see that I'm not the only applicant mildly freaking out about LOR's lol!

Mildly freaking out... ha! It's like, she knows me well, knows I did good work, but to evaluate someone for the LOR you need all this stuff:

Intellectual Skill

Is a critical thinker and problem solver
Is an analytical thinker
Can synthesize information
Is intellectually curious
Constructs logical, cogent arguments

Personal Qualities

Is highly motivated
Shows empathy/compassion
Has surmounted difficulties and obstacles
Possesses practical judgment
Shows initiative
Demonstrates professionalism

Integrity and Honesty

Behaves in accord with high ethical standards
Is reliable
Is trustworthy
Is honest

Communication

Communicates effectively in writing
Writes persuasively
Communicates well orally
Is a thoughtful attentive listener
Asks appropriate questions for information gathering

Task Management

Prioritizes well
Has realistic objectives
Fulfills commitments
Manages work and time efficiently

Working with Others

Respects other points of view
Works well with people from different backgrounds
Motivates others toward a common goal
Is able to lead groups of people from different backgrounds
Organizes and manages others well
Demonstrates good judgment in leadership decisions


...bah humbug.

bump

You can't get ONE prof to write you a letter? I think the general consensus here is that it would look strange for a recent graduate to have ZERO academic rec letters. That said, it's not going to hold you back if you have a good LSAT and GPA. I did roughly what my numbers would have predicted and I didn't have any academic letters (though I have more WE and grad school than you, full disclosure).

cron1834 wrote:You can't get ONE prof to write you a letter? I think the general consensus here is that it would look strange for a recent graduate to have ZERO academic rec letters. That said, it's not going to hold you back if you have a good LSAT and GPA. I did roughly what my numbers would have predicted and I didn't have any academic letters (though I have more WE and grad school than you, full disclosure).

My professor said, more or less, that she was concerned she would not be helpful. She said applications often ask for evaluations of skills and abilities and future projections that are beyond her scope of knowledge, especially with only one course for evaluation. She was worried that checking multiple "no opportunity to observe" boxes indicates lack of significant knowledge of an applicant and would detriment my application.

She's the best professor I've ever had, but our relationship has been more one of witty comments and keeping in touch rather than very academic. Her class had 100+ students in it, and was the most requested course of our entire school.

1) okay, that's ONE professor - didn't you have 20?

2) I don't know why you're worried about check boxes - just get a letter instead of the evaluation form

Seriously?

I would think very strong LORs from employers that observed your intellectual skills would outrank a middling LOR from a professor. This might be something you could address in an addendum - I think it would be understandable that a student that worked so many hours during school couldn't develop the type of relationships a traditional student could have. That's more compelling than a traditional college experience (I was in a similar situation, and the comments/feedback I got reinforced that this part of my background was something to embrace and to play it as one of the qualities that set my application apart from others). Did you do really well in undergrad or are your grades mixed?

Anyway, that long set of qualities you listed seem more like ideas for topics to be addressed in a LOR - it actually reminds me of that Evaluation Form that was another option in the LSAC. If that is what you were trying to get I would highly recommend you just ask for a LOR, to make it easier on both of you. Maybe your professor would be more willing to write a letter commenting on what she directly observed, your personal/intellectual qualities, and your grades (I'm hoping that you did very well in her class) if you could explain your position to your Prof. Have you already communicated your issue to her?

cron1834 wrote:1) okay, that's ONE professor - didn't you have 20?

2) I don't know why you're worried about check boxes - just get a letter instead of the evaluation form

Seriously?

1) Yes I did, but, unfortunately, most of them were "big names" in their fields instead of professionals who actually taught and/or cared about their students.

2) That's one thing I was wondering--if you could just get a letter instead of an evaluation form. I couldn't find any information on whether the evaluation portion was required or not. Does an evaluation have to accompany a LOR? If not, that would be awesome!

Nep11 wrote:I would think very strong LORs from employers that observed your intellectual skills would outrank a middling LOR from a professor. This might be something you could address in an addendum - I think it would be understandable that a student that worked so many hours during school couldn't develop the type of relationships a traditional student could have. That's more compelling than a traditional college experience (I was in a similar situation, and the comments/feedback I got reinforced that this part of my background was something to embrace and to play it as one of the qualities that set my application apart from others). Did you do really well in undergrad or are your grades mixed?

Anyway, that long set of qualities you listed seem more like ideas for topics to be addressed in a LOR - it actually reminds me of that Evaluation Form that was another option in the LSAC. If that is what you were trying to get I would highly recommend you just ask for a LOR, to make it easier on both of you. Maybe your professor would be more willing to write a letter commenting on what she directly observed, your personal/intellectual qualities, and your grades (I'm hoping that you did very well in her class) if you could explain your position to your Prof. Have you already communicated your issue to her?

I did rather well in undergrad, with a 3.5 gpa. My problem was I had mononucleosis and had to have two surgeries during college, so my freshman and sophomore year I got mostly Bs with some As and one C. After I had the surgeries, I had all As, but my GPA had already been destroyed.

You're absolutely right--I copied and pasted that from the Evaluation Form on LSAC. I got one of the top grades in her class, and was the only sophomore in a sea of seniors. I was thinking of pushing her a little bit on the topic, but am just hesitant given that she already said she didn't know how much she could help me. Do you think if I goaded her a bit more and explained where I'm coming from (e.g. working full time) and provide her with more information (e.g. resume, writing samples, etc.) she would be more willing? Or should I stay away from her because she initially indicates hesitation for writing an LOR?

At most schools you can do letters-only. That's what I did, a mere 6 months ago. Honestly this is not a big deal unless you're HYS-or-bust.

I don't think I had either of my recommenders fill out the evaluation form at all.

Send this professor your personal statement and resume, and write up a sort of "about me/why I want to go to law school/things it would be helpful for you to say about me in a LOR" and see what your professor says. If she still doesn't think she can do it then I guess you should let it go and find a different recommender. Ideally you should meet with her if you're near school, or at least set up a phone call.

It really doesn't look good though if you can't get a recommendation from even one professor. Generally, professors know that part of their job is to write recommendations for students who they may not know very well. If she doesn't seem enthusiastic about it, find a professor whose class you did well in who is willing to step in. If you meet with them or speak with them on the phone and send the stuff I mentioned above, they should be able to write a perfectly adequate recommendation.

Remember: you really just need a decent LOR from a professor that says good things about you. If you don't have one at all, you risk adcoms wondering why you couldn't get any professor in all of your years of school to write you a generic LOR. Not having one at all may hold you back, but having a non-memorable LOR won't.

You can always have an additional incredible LOR from an employer, but you really can't have only employer LORs when you're a year out of undergrad.

I did rather well in undergrad, with a 3.5 gpa. My problem was I had mononucleosis and had to have two surgeries during college, so my freshman and sophomore year I got mostly Bs with some As and one C. After I had the surgeries, I had all As, but my GPA had already been destroyed.

I think the surgeries' effect on your grades could be addressed in an addendum, but a 3.5 GPA overall is good.

You're absolutely right--I copied and pasted that from the Evaluation Form on LSAC. I got one of the top grades in her class, and was the only sophomore in a sea of seniors. I was thinking of pushing her a little bit on the topic, but am just hesitant given that she already said she didn't know how much she could help me. Do you think if I goaded her a bit more and explained where I'm coming from (e.g. working full time) and provide her with more information (e.g. resume, writing samples, etc.) she would be more willing? Or should I stay away from her because she initially indicates hesitation for writing an LOR?

None of the schools I applied to asked for the evaluation form. Neither do Harvard, Yale or Stanford. The Evaluation Form offers you another option, but honestly, a LOR would be easier and more preferable.

Now, in terms of re-approaching her, I don't think "goading" is the right word/tactic. She may have a legitimate concern that a letter from her would not help you (sounds more like she was uneasy when confronted with the form, but I think she may be over-thinking it). I absolutely think you should provide more background on yourself, and clearly express why you selected her and why a LOR from her would mean so much. I think providing your resume is a classy touch, because it can help her recognize that you achieved a high grade while working. Your goal should be to make her more comfortable with writing the letter, not necessarily talk her into it.

This would best be done in person, and you should be prepared to seek out other Professors if she refuses, even if you don't know them that well (they are used to writing these, and you might get lucky and find one that will work with you on this). An OK LOR from a Prof. in a class you did well in, and 1-2 very strong LORs from supervisors who observed your intellectual abilities should make for a strong app considering your background.

You all are phenomenal. Great advice, I really appreciate it And it's really great hearing people speak from experience. Thanks a ton

Update:

I emailed my professor as you all advised, and she still politely declined because she doesn't think she knows me well enough academically. None of my other professors have gotten back to me (they are all international relations teachers and working on the Middle Eastern Crisis). HELP!!!! (((((((((((((((

Excuse me while I die a little.

I have a best friend whose sister is a professor who can write me a recommendation, but I'm pretty certain that doesn't count.

simplytea wrote:Update:

I emailed my professor as you all advised, and she still politely declined because she doesn't think she knows me well enough academically. None of my other professors have gotten back to me (they are all international relations teachers and working on the Middle Eastern Crisis). HELP!!!! (((((((((((((((

Excuse me while I die a little.

I have a best friend whose sister is a professor who can write me a recommendation, but I'm pretty certain that doesn't count.

I'll write you a letter of recommendation. Just kidding.

What else can anyone on here do for you? Go study for the LSAT, we've all got weak spots in our applications, now you know yours.

Stop being so neurotic. 3.5 169 with a rec letter from Stephen Hawking saying you make him feel dumb sometimes isn't as good as 3.5 170 with a rec letter from the manager at Starbucks saying you pour a mean latte.

Don't stress. If you can only get professional letters at this point, get those. It sound like your supervisors will be able to say really good things about you. Ask them to address some of the characteristics that law schools are looking for and that a professor would talk about, i.e. critical thinking skills, as much as possible.

Thanks for the reality check guys, guess there's no reason to stress about something I can't really do anything about anyway.

Paul Campos wrote:Stop being so neurotic. 3.5 169 with a rec letter from Stephen Hawking saying you make him feel dumb sometimes isn't as good as 3.5 170 with a rec letter from the manager at Starbucks saying you pour a mean latte.

Haha.

Seriously dude, you are worrying about this needlessly.