GPA for HYS - how low is too low? Forum

[gnomgnomuch]

Hey everyone,

So i started out my freshman year in college pretty poorly, with a 3.3, due to the average college mistakes of partying too much, and studying way too little. The last 4 semesters, I've had a 3.838, 4.0, 3.925 and a 4.0.
This brings my overall GPA to a 3.68. I'm going to be taking a chem class this summer, if i get an A it'll bring it up to a 3.69, if i add another class, i'll have a 3.7 (assuming i get an A in both classes)

I've heard on TLS that HYS (really just H) has a pretty hard GPA floor of a 3.7. Would it be better for me to get my 3.7 this semester, or should i just focus on my LSAT this summer, and ensure i get a 17x in September and apply.

Also, there really doesn't seem to be too big a difference between 3.68-3.69 and a 3.7, so if i decide to just take one class, what LSAT do i need (im assuming 175+) to have a shot at H(and to an extent YS)?

Will my upward grade trend help me out? I've also got two kick-ass recommendations lined up, would that help me out if i were on the bubble candidate?

Thanks for any replies in advance!

[phillywc]

I know people at HLS who have gotten in with under 3.6.

You need a median or above LSAT, the higher the better. You also need a compelling story. Even if you 180, 3.65/180/k-jd could get dinged. So work your ass off for the LSAT and get a job.


Or, ya know, settle for CCN which has pretty similar job outlooks, if a step below.

[gnomgnomuch]

I know people at HLS who have gotten in with under 3.6.

You need a median or above LSAT, the higher the better. You also need a compelling story. Even if you 180, 3.65/180/k-jd could get dinged. So work your ass off for the LSAT and get a job.


Or, ya know, settle for CCN which has pretty similar job outlooks, if a step below.

Well i have a fair amount of WE, working since 9th grade in some form of another, and the past 3 semesters I've worked 3 jobs at once.
Jobs arent flashy though, supervisor in a non for profit, volleyball coach, fitness trainer, internships at a legal firm.

Im guessing those are all pretty run of the mill, and maybe even below average for HLS.

My thing is that im on the east coast right now, and i cant stomach another 3 years in the NYC, obviously if i get a C or N, and nowhere else comparable ill take it, but ideally i'd love the west coast, so for me that would be S (highllllly unlikely, or B, which is still a bit unlikely because of my GPA). Plus im debt averse- no more than 150k, and really that would depend on the school, but id be willing to pay sticker for either H or S or Y.... but H is a pipe dream and SY are so far off that its just hilarious.

[lastsamurai]

I know people at HLS who have gotten in with under 3.6.

You need a median or above LSAT, the higher the better. You also need a compelling story. Even if you 180, 3.65/180/k-jd could get dinged. So work your ass off for the LSAT and get a job.


Or, ya know, settle for CCN which has pretty similar job outlooks, if a step below.

Well i have a fair amount of WE, working since 9th grade in some form of another, and the past 3 semesters I've worked 3 jobs at once.
Jobs arent flashy though, supervisor in a non for profit, volleyball coach, fitness trainer, internships at a legal firm.

Im guessing those are all pretty run of the mill, and maybe even below average for HLS.

My thing is that im on the east coast right now, and i cant stomach another 3 years in the NYC, obviously if i get a C or N, and nowhere else comparable ill take it, but ideally i'd love the west coast, so for me that would be S (highllllly unlikely, or B, which is still a bit unlikely because of my GPA). Plus im debt averse- no more than 150k, and really that would depend on the school, but id be willing to pay sticker for either H or S or Y.... but H is a pipe dream and SY are so far off that its just hilarious.

I'd say definitely below average for HLS, and that GPA makes S or Y pretty tough without maybe a 175+ LSAT. It's all about how you position yourself, so don't completely count yourself out just yet.

[phillywc]

I work full time in an managerial position while going to school. I believe i was treated just like any other k-jd, although I may have gotten a small boost.

[lawschool22]

I know first-hand that 3.7 is not a hard floor. But there were a few things that I think helped me get over the edge and will help you to think about:

1. Luck
2. A few years of solid WE, along w/ a professional certification that is somewhat tough to get
4. A seemingly good interview
5. Median or above LSAT (that's a given - you'll need that to get in the door)
6. Persistence with updates and LOCI, since you'll likely be wait listed
7. Also I had some personal mitigating factors that helped explain my lower GPA, which I'm sure contributed to them overlooking it
8. A solid PS
9. I think my LORs were probably good, since I knew the profs well, but that one I'm less certain about

All that is to say that it definitely is not impossible, but you'll want to make sure the other aspects of your application are tight and thought through.

[gnomgnomuch]

I know first-hand that 3.7 is not a hard floor. But there were a few things that I think helped me get over the edge and will help you to think about:

1. Luck
2. A few years of solid WE, along w/ a professional certification that is somewhat tough to get
4. A seemingly good interview
5. Median or above LSAT (that's a given - you'll need that to get in the door)
6. Persistence with updates and LOCI, since you'll likely be wait listed
7. Also I had some personal mitigating factors that helped explain my lower GPA, which I'm sure contributed to them overlooking it
8. A solid PS
9. I think my LORs were probably good, since I knew the profs well, but that one I'm less certain about

All that is to say that it definitely is not impossible, but you'll want to make sure the other aspects of your application are tight and thought through.

,

these are all very helpful, thanks! #2 is a problem for me, i really dont want to postpone law school, and even though i know it makes sense to sit out a year or two, i just cant do it unless i end up with terrible offers.

I dont have much in the way of #7, other than i was new to college, and balancing a job and an internship with classes wasn't the smartest thing (you know, when you add in partying and lack of studying)... i can only say i learned from my mistakes, but hell i shouldnt have made those mistakes in the first place.

Thanks for giving me hope, im gonna shoot for a 175+ on my LSAT, cross my fingers and hope the ad-com gods look favorably upon me.

[lawschool22]

If you don't have a real reason to explain the GPA, other than just being busy in general, then I would not mention it or call attention to it, because law school is a lot of work, and they may wonder about your ability to handle it, whether that's valid or not.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to delay law school? I think, in addition to the boost it can give your application, it is beneficial for a variety of other reasons. I think the average age at HLS is 25, so you certainly won't be behind the curve if you don't go straight through. One benefit of delaying is you may end up in a good job that you really like, and not even need to go to LS at all.

Otherwise, shoot for the best LSAT you can and hope for the best. But know you'll probably be WL'd and even then it'll be somewhat random.

[gnomgnomuch]

If you don't have a real reason to explain the GPA, other than just being busy in general, then I would not mention it or call attention to it, because law school is a lot of work, and they may wonder about your ability to handle it, whether that's valid or not.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to delay law school? I think, in addition to the boost it can give your application, it is beneficial for a variety of other reasons. I think the average age at HLS is 25, so you certainly won't be behind the curve if you don't go straight through. One benefit of delaying is you may end up in a good job that you really like, and not even need to go to LS at all.

Otherwise, shoot for the best LSAT you can and hope for the best. But know you'll probably be WL'd and even then it'll be somewhat random.

I'm a Poli-Sci major, with minors in corp comm and business journalism, so im not exactly super employable, the places where i work now arent long term options, im there now to make sure i graduate without any debt. Additionally, to lower debt i lived at home throughout college and i really dont want to continue doing that, especially since whatever 35-40k year job i COULD find, wouldnt be enough to actually allow me to live on my own.


I think my best hope at post college employment would be an offer with the legal firm im currently interning at, but i very much doubt i would get that offer, they dont hire interns. (this isnt a big firm or anything). Also, i really do want to start fresh (move out of my house, hopefully the state) and live on my own, and LS is the best option i have for that. (Thats obviously not WHY i want to go to LS, but its a factor in wanting me to be a k-jd)

[lawschool22]

If you don't have a real reason to explain the GPA, other than just being busy in general, then I would not mention it or call attention to it, because law school is a lot of work, and they may wonder about your ability to handle it, whether that's valid or not.

Is there any particular reason you don't want to delay law school? I think, in addition to the boost it can give your application, it is beneficial for a variety of other reasons. I think the average age at HLS is 25, so you certainly won't be behind the curve if you don't go straight through. One benefit of delaying is you may end up in a good job that you really like, and not even need to go to LS at all.

Otherwise, shoot for the best LSAT you can and hope for the best. But know you'll probably be WL'd and even then it'll be somewhat random.

I'm a Poli-Sci major, with minors in corp comm and business journalism, so im not exactly super employable, the places where i work now arent long term options, im there now to make sure i graduate without any debt. Additionally, to lower debt i lived at home throughout college and i really dont want to continue doing that, especially since whatever 35-40k year job i COULD find, wouldnt be enough to actually allow me to live on my own.


I think my best hope at post college employment would be an offer with the legal firm im currently interning at, but i very much doubt i would get that offer, they dont hire interns. (this isnt a big firm or anything). Also, i really do want to start fresh (move out of my house, hopefully the state) and live on my own, and LS is the best option i have for that. (Thats obviously not WHY i want to go to LS, but its a factor in wanting me to be a k-jd)

Okay. Just as long as you've thought through it and are sure this is the path you want to take. Also, without significant post-grad WE, I would definitely focus on that LSAT and nothing else at the moment. Because getting a super score on that will be the single best thing you can do to improve your changes at HYS. Also, just so you know, if you get any of the three I think your chances will be higher at Harvard than the other two, which have been known to be way more picky about GPA.

[jbagelboy]

I know people at HLS who have gotten in with under 3.6.

You need a median or above LSAT, the higher the better. You also need a compelling story. Even if you 180, 3.65/180/k-jd could get dinged. So work your ass off for the LSAT and get a job.


Or, ya know, settle for CCN which has pretty similar job outlooks, if a step below.

Well i have a fair amount of WE, working since 9th grade in some form of another, and the past 3 semesters I've worked 3 jobs at once.
Jobs arent flashy though, supervisor in a non for profit, volleyball coach, fitness trainer, internships at a legal firm.

Im guessing those are all pretty run of the mill, and maybe even below average for HLS.

My thing is that im on the east coast right now, and i cant stomach another 3 years in the NYC, obviously if i get a C or N, and nowhere else comparable ill take it, but ideally i'd love the west coast, so for me that would be S (highllllly unlikely, or B, which is still a bit unlikely because of my GPA). Plus im debt averse- no more than 150k, and really that would depend on the school, but id be willing to pay sticker for either H or S or Y.... but H is a pipe dream and SY are so far off that its just hilarious.

You do realize that debt at those schools is the exact same debt as that taken out for any other law school, right? The US Treasury doesn't just waive your loan payment obligations because your diploma says a certain school name. You clearly aren't debt averse if you will "pay sticker" for law school. Why would you pay sticker for one school over scholarship at another - you aren't debt averse at all, you just looked at the US News survey and said oh, that one looks prestigious!

If you really want to make a calculated debt averse choice to give the best options for your career, target MVPDNC with scholarship.

[TheSpanishMain]

You do realize that debt at those schools is the exact same debt as that taken out for any other law school, right? The US Treasury doesn't just waive your loan payment obligations because your diploma says a certain school name. You clearly aren't debt averse if you will "pay sticker" for law school. Why would you pay sticker for one school over scholarship at another - you aren't debt averse at all, you just looked at the US News survey and said oh, that one looks prestigious!

If you really want to make a calculated debt averse choice to give the best options for your career, target MVPDNC with scholarship.

But...but...it's Harvard!

[lawschool22]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

[t-14orbust]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

-HLS C/O 2017 lol

[Splitter1415]

I do know one person who got into Yale with a GPA below 3.5 last year. However, he is the only one around me who got into too law schools with a low GPA.

[lawschool22]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

-HLS C/O 2017 lol

I wasn't coming down on it either way, just pointing out that there is not nearly enough info for him/her to make that call yet, and it doesn't make sense to talk about debt or decisions at this stage.

Also just because I made the decision to go there doesn't mean my thoughts on the subject can't be trusted. It's entirely personal and based on your goals and the other options available to you, none of which is information we have from OP, which is why this isn't the place to have that discussion.

[t-14orbust]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

-HLS C/O 2017 lol

I wasn't coming down on it either way, just pointing out that there is not nearly enough info for him/her to make that call yet, and it doesn't make sense to talk about debt or decisions at this stage.

Also just because I made the decision to go there doesn't mean my thoughts on the subject can't be trusted. It's entirely personal and based on your goals and the other options available to you, none of which is information we have from OP, which is why this isn't the place to have that discussion.

lol I was kidding

-HLS C/O 2017

[lawschool22]

I figured you were considering where you're headed to school, but just wanted to throw that out there before other people made a similar (non-kidding) comment

[TheSpanishMain]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

Fair enough. It's just weird when people treat HYS as some sort of magical alternative dimension where the normal rules of cost/benefit analysis don't apply. They're all obviously amazing schools, but debt is still debt. Didn't mean to derail though.

[lawschool22]

Let's not turn this thread into that discussion.

Fair enough. It's just weird when people treat HYS as some sort of magical alternative dimension where the normal rules of cost/benefit analysis don't apply. They're all obviously amazing schools, but debt is still debt. Didn't mean to derail though.

No, that point is valid. Like anything it is a cost/benefit analysis. For some goals, HYS makes perfect sense, for others it would be foolish to turn down money at a "lower" school. But at least here there is nothing wrong with a 0L asking about what they need to do to get into HYS as a goal. Once they have actual options and money offers we can talks specifics .

[HorseThief]

Re: OP

If your dream is for HYS, be ready to take a year or two off after grad. Definitely throw out some applications, if only for the experience (my apps would be very different if I went through a second cycle).

Also, $40k is plenty for any non-NYC east coast city. Taking time to work will let you a) save up money, b) study more for the LSAT, and c) live away from your rents.

That said, the GPA is doable, but you should also have back-up plans like work/grad school.

[jbagelboy]

It's not about that. Just reread what OP posted, no need to aggrandize into some grander schematic. Lol @ pronouncing your debt aversion while scrambling to take out $300,000 in gov't loans.

[MistakenGenius]

Post removed.

[UMich11]

I was WL with a 3.33, not URW and average LSAT. Not sure why, but also never admitted so maybe it was a fluke.

[lawschool22]

I was WL with a 3.33, not URW and average LSAT. Not sure why, but also never admitted so maybe it was a fluke.

If you had median LSAT and were a decently solid candidate, they'll throw you on the WL in case they need that LSAT. And they must have liked something about your app or they wouldn't have WL'd you.