Top Law Schools

Why hasn't the site updated it yet? The new rankings has been out for some time now.

Which site are you talking about, TLS? As you seem to know, ATL has its updated rankings right here: http://abovethelaw.com/careers/2014-law ... -rankings/

Yes, TLS. Perhaps the delay is due to negotiations with ATL in whether to promote its version of the rankings?

USNEWS trumps ATL because of how few people read ATL. TLS is a hivemind. Outside everybody's heard of USNEWS.

Also rankings are dumb plus who cares if TLS posts any rankings.

ATL rankings are just as pointless as USNWR. Elie's just being self-indulgent.

Besides the fact that the methodology is idiotic, the very idea of doing a national ranking of law schools, 90% of which are regional, is asinine. The only type of ranking that would remotely make sense would be region-specific and concerned only with job outcomes and costs. Of course, ATL is too busy gossiping about swimwear at firm pool parties to do something meaningful like that.

Max324 wrote:ATL rankings are just as pointless as USNWR. Elie's just being self-indulgent.

I wholeheartedly disagree. While the ATL rankings aren't remotely perfect, they are the best national ranking metric available. It balances FTLT legal employment with biglaw and fedclerk prospects, which is very TLS-esque.

Besides the question here is not about the merit of such rankings, it's about why the TLS website has not updated the ATL rankings when they've been out for over a month. It's not exactly a hard thing to update....

bugsy33 wrote:

Max324 wrote:ATL rankings are just as pointless as USNWR. Elie's just being self-indulgent.

I wholeheartedly disagree. While the ATL rankings aren't remotely perfect, they are the best national ranking metric available. It balances FTLT legal employment with biglaw and fedclerk prospects, which is very TLS-esque.

Besides the question here is not about the merit of such rankings, it's about why the TLS website has not updated the ATL rankings when they've been out for over a month. It's not exactly a hard thing to update....

This. As far as quick, vaguely useful references for prospective law students go, ATL is probably as good as any ranking system out there, and better than USNWR.
Though both still ranking Cornell so low on the T14 is quite the flame. (Not a Cornell student)

No, they are completely equal. You missed my point -- there is literally no value in a national ranking of law schools. Zero. 90% of law schools are regional; all national rankings do is delude students into doing stupid shit like go to Emory at sticker over $$ at BC even though the student wants to land in Boston.

If you insist that NO I NEED NATIONAL RANKINGS THEY DEFINITELY SERVE A PURPOSE, the only credited response is Paul Campos' list, though I have a few issues with the list (maybe conservative with the placement of DNC): http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... -guys.html

Max324 wrote:No, they are completely equal. You missed my point -- there is literally no value in a national ranking of law schools. Zero. 90% of law schools are regional; all national rankings do is delude students into doing stupid shit like go to Emory at sticker over $$ at BC even though the student wants to land in Boston.

If you insist that NO I NEED NATIONAL RANKINGS THEY DEFINITELY SERVE A PURPOSE, the only credited response is Paul Campos' list, though I have a few issues with the list (maybe conservative with the placement of DNC): http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... -guys.html

Campos is such a flame. Beyond his usual Chi > HYS stick, does he seriously believe Michigan is a categorically better decision than Duke/Cornell/NU, and that people should be encouraged to go to the former but actively discouraged from the latter?

Though imperfect, ATL's rankings are MUCH better than the shit rankings USNWR publishes. If you disagree then you're either misinformed or shamelessly pining for USNWR due to your school's subpar ATL ranking(if any).

Sorry, no one cares about the size of your library.

ymmv wrote:

Max324 wrote:No, they are completely equal. You missed my point -- there is literally no value in a national ranking of law schools. Zero. 90% of law schools are regional; all national rankings do is delude students into doing stupid shit like go to Emory at sticker over $$ at BC even though the student wants to land in Boston.

If you insist that NO I NEED NATIONAL RANKINGS THEY DEFINITELY SERVE A PURPOSE, the only credited response is Paul Campos' list, though I have a few issues with the list (maybe conservative with the placement of DNC): http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... -guys.html

Campos is such a flame. Beyond his usual Chi > HYS stick, does he seriously believe Michigan is a categorically better decision than Duke/Cornell/NU, and that people should be encouraged to go to the former but actively discouraged from the latter?

Already said that.

ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Oh, I had no idea he went to Michigan. Well, that explains that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Campos

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Yeah, because no one falls or leaps in USNWR...

It's really rather simple --- one is based on cost and employment outcomes while the other is based on meaningless bullshit.

Nucky wrote:Though imperfect, ATL's rankings are MUCH better than the shit rankings USNWR publishes. If you disagree then you're either misinformed or shamelessly pining for USNWR due to your school's subpar ATL ranking(if any).

Sorry, no one cares about the size of your library.

I disagree, I'm not misinformed, and my school's USNWR ranking = its ATL ranking.

You completely missed the point. So I'll make the point again. Maybe on round three someone will actually listen.

Would you care about a national ranking of community colleges, all of which almost exclusively serve students from the surrounding area? Would it make sense to go to some junior college in Utah over the junior college in your hometown because it's "ranked higher"? Of course not.

THERE IS NO REASON TO DO A NATIONAL RANKING OF REGIONAL LAW SCHOOLS. You can do a national ranking of national law schools. You can do a regional ranking of regional law schools. But there is literally no reason to ever be comparing Fordham to UMiami.

USNWR and ATL are equally stupid. If I saw someone eating dog shit, I wouldn't stop and ask why he wasn't eating cat shit.

Max324 wrote: THERE IS NO REASON TO DO A NATIONAL RANKING OF REGIONAL LAW SCHOOLS. You can do a national ranking of national law schools. You can do a regional ranking of regional law schools. But there is literally no reason to ever be comparing Fordham to UMiami.

If we're being honest, is there even any reason to do a national ranking of national law schools? I don't go to HYS, but I would happily admit they are probably the only truly "national" schools in the sense of having reliable blanket coverage across the United States. Rest of T14 are simply regional schools (albeit with large regions) who send a few people a year back to their home states.

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Yeah, because no one falls or leaps in USNWR...

USNWR deals with a couple hundred schools versus only 50 for ATL. Do tell of the big top 50 jumps on USNWR. Not much there. With ATL they treat schools like they’re a yo-yo on a string. TLS was and is wise to ignore ATL this year.

Max324 wrote:No, they are completely equal. You missed my point -- there is literally no value in a national ranking of law schools. Zero. 90% of law schools are regional; all national rankings do is delude students into doing stupid shit like go to Emory at sticker over $$ at BC even though the student wants to land in Boston.

If you insist that NO I NEED NATIONAL RANKINGS THEY DEFINITELY SERVE A PURPOSE, the only credited response is Paul Campos' list, though I have a few issues with the list (maybe conservative with the placement of DNC): http://outsidethelawschoolscam.blogspot ... -guys.html

National Rankings absolutely serve a purpose, especially in the case of ATL rankings which are based primarily on employment. Many people do not have a strong preference on where they want to practice, or have multiple markets in mind. In my case I would have no problem with Midwest, South East, or South West. I see no huge issue with having a national ranking that helps students pick between schools across multiple regions.

Paul Campo's list is nice, but has some silly categories (Oregon in the same tier as Northwestern----what??)

Saddle Up wrote:

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Yeah, because no one falls or leaps in USNWR...

USNWR deals with a couple hundred schools versus only 50 for ATL. Do tell of the big top 50 jumps on USNWR. Not much there. With ATL they treat schools like they’re a yo-yo on a string. TLS was and is wise to ignore ATL this year.

I can almost guarantee your school either fell off the list or made a big drop. ATL is not picking these schools randomly, they have a formula that they publish. If schools want to go up the list they have to lower their costs and increase their employment stats. Period. That's why Iowa goes up and USC goes down. Iowa gives their average student a better chance of becoming a full time lawyer and paying off their debt.

Saddle Up wrote:

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Yeah, because no one falls or leaps in USNWR...

USNWR deals with a couple hundred schools versus only 50 for ATL. Do tell of the big top 50 jumps on USNWR. Not much there. With ATL they treat schools like they’re a yo-yo on a string. TLS was and is wise to ignore ATL this year.

UF practically doubled their big law/ fed clerk placement while also increasing their overalls number by about 15% --- hence a big jump. Iowa drastically cut tuition --- hence a big jump.

Wake and Emory both took significant hits to their employment numbers --- hence a drop. It isn't voodoo or rocket science.

W&M, BYU, Illinois, W&L, Penn state, etc. all made large jumps or drops.

However, large drops or jumps don't really matter when the original rankings were shit to begin with.

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

Yeah, because no one falls or leaps in USNWR...

USNWR deals with a couple hundred schools versus only 50 for ATL. Do tell of the big top 50 jumps on USNWR. Not much there. With ATL they treat schools like they’re a yo-yo on a string. TLS was and is wise to ignore ATL this year.

UF practically doubled their big law/ fed clerk placement while also increasing their overalls number by about 15% --- hence a big jump. Iowa drastically cut tuition --- hence a big jump.

Wake and Emory both took significant hits to their employment numbers --- hence a drop. It isn't voodoo or rocket science.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... ends/2013/
Can you explain to me how having BigLaw/FedClerk numbers of
2011:14.2
2012:13.2
2013:14.9
Equals almost doubling?

The overall numbers did go up, but from 55% to 65% so not a 15% jump.

CoffeeIsLife wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:

Nucky wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:ATL Rankings are simply wonky. UF up 12; Iowa up 19; Wake Forrest down 16; Emory down 7…. C’mon. I think TLS posted their rankings last year in hopes that ATL might be a rankings player but its now evident ATL jumps the shark way too many times. How can USC be -15 worse than last year? ATL’s delusional ranking system is a fail on the credibility level. Ignore it.

UF practically doubled their big law/ fed clerk placement while also increasing their overalls number by about 15% --- hence a big jump. Iowa drastically cut tuition --- hence a big jump.

Wake and Emory both took significant hits to their employment numbers --- hence a drop. It isn't voodoo or rocket science.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... ends/2013/
Can you explain to me how having BigLaw/FedClerk numbers of
2011:14.2
2012:13.2
2013:14.9
Equals almost doubling?

The overall numbers did go up, but from 55% to 65% so not a 15% jump.

I'm writing at stop lights and going off the top of my head. But if I remember correctly UF had around 7% big law last year and had like 13% this year. Not sure about the fed clerk #'s. But even if I'm a little off, who cares? Stop nitpicking meaningless shit. The point still stands.

UF is also the best school in a large state, and has comparatively cheap tuition, which helps its ranking also.

Nucky wrote:

CoffeeIsLife wrote:

Saddle Up wrote:

Nucky wrote: UF practically doubled their big law/ fed clerk placement while also increasing their overalls number by about 15% --- hence a big jump. Iowa drastically cut tuition --- hence a big jump.

Wake and Emory both took significant hits to their employment numbers --- hence a drop. It isn't voodoo or rocket science.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/ ... ends/2013/
Can you explain to me how having BigLaw/FedClerk numbers of
2011:14.2
2012:13.2
2013:14.9
Equals almost doubling?

The overall numbers did go up, but from 55% to 65% so not a 15% jump.

I'm writing at stop lights and going off the top of my head. But if I remember correctly UF had around 7% big law last year and had like 13% this year. Not sure about the fed clerk #'s. But even if I'm a little off, who cares? Stop nitpicking meaningless shit. The point still stands.

I understand typing on your phone. I wasn't trying to nitpick, but all I was saying is a <2% change isn't substantial. The majority of the rankings are pointless, and people choose to prefer the list that has the school they are going to or want to go to highest.

If that's the case I misremembered and stand corrected. All I'm trying to say is that I like the ATL rankings. Are they perfect? Of course not. But I'm frankly not sure that it's even possible to have PERFECT rankings.

At least they base their standings on what matters though. I think they deserve credit for that. If TLS is going to recognize USNWR then hey should lend equal, if not greater, credence to ATL's... Unless you really care about the size of the lawbrary or your fellow classmate's UG GPA.