Getting in with a master's Forum

[Vitreus]

I recently got it in my head that I may be interested in attending law school. I was speaking to a family member, who is an IP attorney, and it sounds like a great career. Here's where I'm at:

I have a bachelor's in biomedical science with a 3.2 cumulative GPA

I am one semester away from a master's in molecular biology with a 4.0 GPA

By the time I finish my master's I will be published in 3-4 papers in various journals

I scored in the top 90% on the GRE without preparation, and am convinced I could do the same or better on the LSAT

I have 3+ years of volunteering with Big Brother, I've held a job since the beginning of undergrad (working in specialty pharmacy), and I've held positions in clubs blah blah blah

I think I would be quite good at IP law if I could get in. I've read thousands, and written several papers. I know this field well. With what I've read about bleak prospects for law grads, however, it doesn't seem it would be in my best interest to attend lower-ranked schools...

With a good LSAT, do I have a chance at top schools? You guys have been researching this longer than me, so I'd really appreciate your advice.

[unc0mm0n1]

Depends on how good of an LSAT score, but yes if you got a great LSAT score you would probably get into quite a few t14 schools.

[elterrible78]

I recently got it in my head that I may be interested in attending law school. I was speaking to a family member, who is an IP attorney, and it sounds like a great career. Here's where I'm at:

I have a bachelor's in biomedical science with a 3.2 cumulative GPA

I am one semester away from a master's in molecular biology with a 4.0 GPA

By the time I finish my master's I will be published in 3-4 papers in various journals

I scored in the top 90% on the GRE without preparation, and am convinced I could do the same or better on the LSAT

I have 3+ years of volunteering with Big Brother, I've held a job since the beginning of undergrad (working in specialty pharmacy), and I've held positions in clubs blah blah blah

I think I would be quite good at IP law if I could get in. I've read thousands, and written several papers. I know this field well. With what I've read about bleak prospects for law grads, however, it doesn't seem it would be in my best interest to attend lower-ranked schools...

With a good LSAT, do I have a chance at top schools? You guys have been researching this longer than me, so I'd really appreciate your advice.

With that undergrad GPA (unfortunately, the grad-school GPA will weigh far, far less in the admissions committee's calculation), you're going to want to really do well on the LSAT. Definitely 170+. I would say that realistically, Yale, Harvard, and Stanford are off the table, Columbia, Chicago, and NYU are possibilities, but with a high 170s LSAT. But if you can crack 170, you'll probably be in some T-14 schools.

That said, the LSAT is a whole different beast. It's definitely not the GRE, and top 90% on the LSAT is going to be no help to you anyway. You need 98th percentile, at a minimum, and for that you're almost certainly going to need prep. My cold diagnostic LSAT was at around 96th percentile (I also killed the GRE with no prep), and I ended up at 99.9th with 3 months of solid prep. You do NOT want to try to sit for the LSAT with no prep, and you do NOT want to apply to law schools with your GPA and anything sub-170 (which, again, is 98th percentile).

It's just a matter of buckling down, though, and putting in the effort. Good luck!

[Nova]

3.2/1xx

Don't expect the masters to make you out perform your ugpa+ lsat

http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com
http://www.mylsn.info

[Vitreus]

So the master's is basically irrelevant? Will they take into account the difficulty of my major? I'll get into touch with a pre-law advisor as well, but I want to do a bit of scouting.

[Hipster but Athletic]

The common wisdom is that the master's is regarded as a solid "soft" but because the USNWR rankings factor in undergrad GPA and LSAT so much, that those two metrics will be the main drivers of your admissions cycle. You'll get the benefit of the doubt in a lot of places, and maybe outperform your numbers by say .2GPA..., but ya, do not expect a cycle that corresponds with the outcomes that people with 3.7's and whatever your LSAT is will have.

[homestyle28]

While the master's may not give you an admissions bump by itself, the publications will help. Far more important is the giant advantage you'll have in the job market presuming you want to do IP. Many firms require at least a hard science bachelors for IP, and at selective boutiques a Master's is basically required.

Frankly, break 170 on the LSAT and you'll be as set as a person can be headed to law school.

[guano]

I scored in the top 90% on the GRE without preparation, and am convinced I could do the same or better on the LSAT

90th percentile on the LSAT is about 165, which isn't good enough.

Don't be an idiot. Prepare for the LSAT.

[Nova]

1.So the master's is basically irrelevant?

2. Will they take into account the difficulty of my major?

1. yes
2. no

[collegebum1989]

I'm a Biomedical Engineer with a 3.2 undergrad GPA with a Masters in Biomedical Engineering who just applied to law school with the intention of pursuing IP Law. Few things I've experienced from personal experience:

1) Performance on the GRE does not compare to performance on the LSAT. I scored in the 99th percentile for the GRE (800Q, 700V) and still couldn't break 170 on the LSAT.

2) Masters GPA (or the fact that you have one) does not matter in admissions. I did my degree at a Ivy and graduated first in my class. Still had a negligible impact on my cycle given my numbers. Everything else you mentioned (volunteering, clubs, etc) are average softs that most other applicants also have.

3) IP Law is more selective for technical background than you think it is. If you're masters is also in "Biomedical Science", I would say it probably won't make you "IPSECURE" since employers will see it as a Biology degree rather than an engineering degree (which usually requires a PhD for patent prosecution). If you were to do Bio-related degree, I would recommend a Biomedical Engineering degree instead.

4) Outlook for IP law grads is much stronger than other fields but only if you have an EE/CS background. Unfortunately, Bio (even BME) degrees are not that much in demand without a PhD. As such, you should go to the best school hoping to land a Patent Lit job where your technical background won't make or break your employment chances.


My advice: take the LSAT and do the best you can possible do. If you can break a 170, you will be able to get some of the T14's (NU, GULC, Cornell). But your entire admissions chances will be dependent on the LSAT and don't let anyone else tell you any different. I thought my softs and masters would help me - but it really doesn't matter.

Also realize that being IP also gives you a bit of flexibility in how you approach going to law school. If you take the Patent Bar exam while in grad school, you will give yourself an advantage when applying to patent jobs as a law student (this is what I am doing). With your graduate degree and technical background, you can work as 1) Patent Examiner or 2) Technical Specialist/Patent Agent at an IP firm while you go to law school part-time. Some firms will even pay for your tuition.

It's not "T14 or bust" for IP students. You can reasonably go to a T20 or T1 with a large scholarship and still have great prospects at graduation. If you go to a school in a major IP market (SF, DC, Houston, etc), you will put yourself in a more advantageous position.

Good luck! Feel free to PM for more specific details/suggestions.

[DELG]

The advise you've gotten here is probably going to be better than your pre-law advisor

Damn I should just become a pre-law advisor

[InTheHouse]

I scored in the top 90% on the GRE without preparation, and am convinced I could do the same or better on the LSAT.

Take the LSAT seriously. I was an engineering major who pretty much got perfect scores on all standardized testing without much effort (which isn't saying much since the SAT and GRE are jokes). My usual routine of read-a-generic-test-prep book didn't come close to working. It took me 3-4 months of intense prep to crack 170.

Also, no law school seemed to give a shit about my M.S. If there was a bump, my admissions cycle didn't reflect it. And nobody gives a shit about graduate GPA since almost everyone's graduate GPA is well north of 3.5.

[InTheHouse]

It's not "T14 or bust" for IP students. You can reasonably go to a T20 or T1 with a large scholarship and still have great prospects at graduation. If you go to a school in a major IP market (SF, DC, Houston, etc), you will put yourself in a more advantageous position.

I second this bit of advice. I followed this route and it worked out well. I'm close to paying off all my debt (looking dumb in hindsight given how the market has done in the last couple of years) and had no trouble getting offers in DC. Worth mentioning that I was an EE/CS major with no interest in patent litigation.

[Nova]

Damn I should just become a pre-law advisor

I think i may end up failing into this

[DELG]

Damn I should just become a pre-law advisor

I think i may end up failing into this

I was pretty serious about trying to get into OCS advising until I looked up the salaries at public schools

Nope

[rikki tikki]

Damn I should just become a pre-law advisor

I think i may end up failing into this

I was pretty serious about trying to get into OCS advising until I looked up the salaries at public schools

Nope

Just work at a bunch of schools at the same time. How hard can it be to give out bullshit platitudes about "holistic admissions" to stupid college kids all day? You could probably see 40-50 kids a day at 4 different schools. Those salaries add up.

[Vitreus]

I'm a Biomedical Engineer with a 3.2 undergrad GPA with a Masters in Biomedical Engineering who just applied to law school with the intention of pursuing IP Law. Few things I've experienced from personal experience:

1) Performance on the GRE does not compare to performance on the LSAT. I scored in the 99th percentile for the GRE (800Q, 700V) and still couldn't break 170 on the LSAT.

2) Masters GPA (or the fact that you have one) does not matter in admissions. I did my degree at a Ivy and graduated first in my class. Still had a negligible impact on my cycle given my numbers. Everything else you mentioned (volunteering, clubs, etc) are average softs that most other applicants also have.

3) IP Law is more selective for technical background than you think it is. If you're masters is also in "Biomedical Science", I would say it probably won't make you "IPSECURE" since employers will see it as a Biology degree rather than an engineering degree (which usually requires a PhD for patent prosecution). If you were to do Bio-related degree, I would recommend a Biomedical Engineering degree instead.

4) Outlook for IP law grads is much stronger than other fields but only if you have an EE/CS background. Unfortunately, Bio (even BME) degrees are not that much in demand without a PhD. As such, you should go to the best school hoping to land a Patent Lit job where your technical background won't make or break your employment chances.


My advice: take the LSAT and do the best you can possible do. If you can break a 170, you will be able to get some of the T14's (NU, GULC, Cornell). But your entire admissions chances will be dependent on the LSAT and don't let anyone else tell you any different. I thought my softs and masters would help me - but it really doesn't matter.

Also realize that being IP also gives you a bit of flexibility in how you approach going to law school. If you take the Patent Bar exam while in grad school, you will give yourself an advantage when applying to patent jobs as a law student (this is what I am doing). With your graduate degree and technical background, you can work as 1) Patent Examiner or 2) Technical Specialist/Patent Agent at an IP firm while you go to law school part-time. Some firms will even pay for your tuition.

It's not "T14 or bust" for IP students. You can reasonably go to a T20 or T1 with a large scholarship and still have great prospects at graduation. If you go to a school in a major IP market (SF, DC, Houston, etc), you will put yourself in a more advantageous position.

Good luck! Feel free to PM for more specific details/suggestions.

Sorry for the delayed response. Thank you so much for this feedback. This is extremely helpful. Cheers.

[Ti Malice]

I'll get into touch with a pre-law advisor as well, but I want to do a bit of scouting.

With rare exception, pre-law advisors are among the most useless people on the planet. They collectively give out a staggering amount of terrible and harmful advice. If you talk to one, run everything he/she tells you by posters here.

(Anecdote: One poster who will be attending Yale next year originally thought he was likely limited to attending some crappy local schools because of the number of Ws on his transcript, thanks to the idiotic counsel of his pre-law advisor. Stories like this are legion around here.)