How much does your undergrad matter Forum

Calbears123 · Post by **Calbears123** » Mon May 12, 2014 1:49 am

I've read all this stuff about how your undergrad doesn't matter at all when it comes to applying to law school, but when I look at the accepted statistics from top 14 schools it seems something like 60% + all went to very prestigious undergrad. Infact the very top schools was something like 90 to 95%.

dabigchina · Post by **dabigchina** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:23 am

Kids who go to elite law schools tend to do well on the LSAT. Kids who do well on the LSAT tend to do well on the SATs. Kids who do well on the SATs tend to go to elite undergrads.

Outside of a couple super elite schools with bad grade deflation ( Chicago, Princeton) it doesn't matter at all.

parkslope · Post by **parkslope** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:36 am

dabigchina wrote:Kids who go to elite law schools tend to do well on the LSAT. Kids who do well on the LSAT tend to do well on the SATs. Kids who do well on the SATs tend to go to elite undergrads.

Outside of a couple super elite schools with bad grade deflation ( Chicago, Princeton) it doesn't matter at all.

Absolutely untrue. It's more than that. The HYP types tend to overperform their LSAT score when it comes to the T14. If you look at the LSAT data for any top-ten undergrad, the average LSAT is like 167 at best. Yet the acceptance rates are quite high. But I think the undergrad prestige boost peters out quite quickly after HYP.

dowu · Post by **dowu** » Mon May 12, 2014 2:38 am

Calbears123 wrote:I've read all this stuff about how your undergrad doesn't matter at all when it comes to applying to law school, but when I look at the accepted statistics from top 14 schools it seems something like 60% + all went to very prestigious undergrad. Infact the very top schools was something like 90 to 95%.

The only things that matter are your GPA and LSAT. You will get into schools that match your numbers no matter what UG you attended. Focus on those two things.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon May 12, 2014 3:56 am

Post removed.

gchatbrah · Post by **gchatbrah** » Mon May 12, 2014 5:46 am

Calbears123 wrote:I've read all this stuff about how your undergrad doesn't matter at all when it comes to applying to law school, but when I look at the accepted statistics from top 14 schools it seems something like 60% + all went to very prestigious undergrad. Infact the very top schools was something like 90 to 95%.

Undergrad probably means more during OCI than it does during the admissions process. Don't have any numbers to support that (they don't really exist), but in an indistinguishable sea of median students, a high powered undergrad serves as a data point in evaluating past performance or success.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:31 am

dowu wrote: The only things that matter are your GPA and LSAT. You will get into schools that match your numbers no matter what UG you attended. Focus on those two things.

Br3v · Post by **Br3v** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:44 am

It doesn't

rayiner · Post by **rayiner** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:55 am

Getting into HYP generally requires a 1500+ SAT (on the 1600 scale), and unsurprisingly people who can get one tend to be able to get high LSAT scores. See Yale's data: http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/d ... istics.pdf.

The average LSAT of Yale seniors applying to law school is 168.5, and alumni is 166.7. I bet the median skews up, at 169 and 167 at least. The schools have lots of grade inflation, so the average GPA for these applicants is 3.71 and 3.59, respectively.

Look at the Harvard stat. The mean Yale UG admit to Harvard law has a 173.4/3.8. These are solid Harvard numbers no matter what school you're coming from.

cotiger · Post by **cotiger** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:08 am

Regardless of whether it gives you a marginal boost (I personally don't think it does outside of Columbia), it's not something you can change now, and the possible boost/negative is small and shouldn't affect where you apply.

So don't worry about it.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Mon May 12, 2014 10:42 am

Post removed.

06162014123 · Post by **06162014123** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:17 am

goldenboy514 · Post by **goldenboy514** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:18 am

cotiger wrote:Regardless of whether it gives you a marginal boost (I personally don't think it does outside of Columbia), it's not something you can change now, and the possible boost/negative is small and shouldn't affect where you apply.

So don't worry about it.

+1
Many people, including me, get into T14's from unheard of undergrads. Nothing you can do now other than get highest GPA and LSAT possible

jbagelboy · Post by **jbagelboy** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:33 am

It's a scientific fact that you will not get into any law schools higher ranked on USNews than your undergrad was ranked on the national universities or LAC ranking of that same respected publication, respectively. Don't even try.

dowu · Post by **dowu** » Mon May 12, 2014 11:42 am

Also, OP, use the search function. This topic has been discussed to infinity and beyond.

victory · Post by **victory** » Mon May 12, 2014 12:13 pm

The only things that matter are your GPA and LSAT. You will get into schools that match your numbers no matter what UG you attended. Focus on those two things.

TCR. HYSM (purposely left out Princeton due to grade deflation going against the prestige) may give a slight edge, but it's not even equivalent to a point on the LSAT.

rayiner · Post by **rayiner** » Mon May 12, 2014 3:50 pm

MistakenGenius wrote:
rayiner wrote:Getting into HYP generally requires a 1500+ SAT (on the 1600 scale), and unsurprisingly people who can get one tend to be able to get high LSAT scores. See Yale's data: http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/d ... istics.pdf.

The average LSAT of Yale seniors applying to law school is 168.5, and alumni is 166.7. I bet the median skews up, at 169 and 167 at least. The schools have lots of grade inflation, so the average GPA for these applicants is 3.71 and 3.59, respectively.

Look at the Harvard stat. The mean Yale UG admit to Harvard law has a 173.4/3.8. These are solid Harvard numbers no matter what school you're coming from.
Isn't there a logical fallacy about only including one data point and ignoring others? Why don't you look at the Yale admits on that same link you posted so confidently? Clearly, with 172.5/3.83, those students are below the normal Yale medians. You can say that this is only the case because they favor their own graduates (which I'll agree with, all law schools do), but that still shows that undergrad does make a difference and thus, matters.

Note the difference between averages, which are used in the linked-document, and medians, which are reported by YLS. My guess would be that the medians skew higher than the averages, due to people with say 16x getting into YLS on the basis of softs, URM, etc. YLS's median is a 173/3.9, which seems pretty damn close to 172.5/3.83 considering that in reality there's no 0.5 LSAT scores.

Also, I left out YLS and SLS because they're known for focusing heavily on softs, and Yale UG students are statistically more likely to have stronger softs than students at other schools with similar SAT scores. Indeed, if you look at the SAT medians of top undergraduate schools, there are a bunch that cluster around ~1500 (on the 1600 scale). The difference between getting into WUSTL and Yale is quite often softs.

ALTHANI · Post by **ALTHANI** » Mon May 12, 2014 3:58 pm

Would a 3.8 in undergrad be enough to get into Yale? Coming in from Canada. Haven't taken my LSAT yet.

copingtrope · Post by **copingtrope** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:10 pm

Not enough to continue talking about it.

copingtrope · Post by **copingtrope** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:14 pm

ALTHANI wrote:Would a 3.8 in undergrad be enough to get into Yale? Coming in from Canada. Haven't taken my LSAT yet.

lawschoolnumbers.com

Enough, but don't get your hopes up.

ALTHANI · Post by **ALTHANI** » Mon May 12, 2014 4:47 pm

copingtrope wrote:
ALTHANI wrote:Would a 3.8 in undergrad be enough to get into Yale? Coming in from Canada. Haven't taken my LSAT yet.
lawschoolnumbers.com

Enough, but don't get your hopes up.

Oh well, thanks!

SFrost · Post by **SFrost** » Mon May 12, 2014 6:09 pm

I'm from a TTTTTTTT undergrad and I got into two T14s with a lot of waitlists, too. I outperformed my numbers, so it's not like T14 sees no name public and immediately rejects.

That said, the median LSAT at my school was like 149 and everyone I've ever talked to from there is going TTT or worse. I'll miss being the sexiest in the class.

aboutmydaylight · Post by **aboutmydaylight** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:39 pm

Anyone have statistics on what percent of HYS classes are from Ivy+SM? I remember reading somewhere that 1/3 of YLS is HY undergrad and over 50% of their class is IVY+Stanford UG.

victory · Post by **victory** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:50 pm

Anyone have statistics on what percent of HYS classes are from Ivy+SM? I remember reading somewhere that 1/3 of YLS is HY undergrad and over 50% of their class is IVY+Stanford UG.

No stats, but, FWIW, I found this in a TLS interview with Yale Law's Dean of Admissions:

AR: We do take into account the difficulty and academic rigor of a student’s undergraduate curriculum. Some schools – for example, the U.S. service academies – are notoriously difficult and have strenuous physical requirements alongside the academic ones. A student whom we admit from such a school might have a lower absolute GPA than someone I admit from another school that might be less difficult academically. We have to look at a student’s performance in context. We also value institutional diversity, and like to bring in students from a variety of undergraduate schools. So, if you look at our website, we have students from Scripps College, Bob Jones University, and the University of Pittsburgh, for example, in addition to the “typical” schools you might expect, like Harvard, UVA, and Berkeley.

Crowing · Post by **Crowing** » Mon May 12, 2014 9:54 pm

Victory wrote:Bob Jones University

Cannot believe this is the name of a real school