Top Law Schools

Hey, this is my first time posting on here so feel free to move this thread if it's in the wrong section.

Anyways, my question is, how important are softs to the T 14 schools? I'm currently a junior in undergrad, planning to take the LSAT this June, with a 3.74 LSAC GPA. I have pretty basic work experience (food service stuff, doing an internship for a non profit now, and almost certainly doing another internship at the state attorneys office of a medium - sized city this summer) and I'm in absolutely no student organizations, which I think might hurt me.

Could my average softs stop me from getting into, say, Columbia, if my LSAT is in the low 170 range (what Im projecting for based on my studying)?

(Also, I'm hispanic, but not URM, not sure if that makes a difference)


Thanks

Don't sweat the soft stuff.

notalobbyist wrote:Don't sweat the soft stuff.

This. I probably put more stock in "soft factors" than most here, but even I'll say that overwhelmingly, an applicant's cycle is determined by his uGPA and LSAT (especially the LSAT).

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Thanks guys, that's great to hear. I'm aiming for CCN, so hopefully I'll be good as long as I get my LSAT score where I want it to be.

I'm worried about this too. Currently a sophomore shooting for a T6, which I think is a somewhat reasonable goal (4.23 gpa with double major and 164 diagnostic), but I'm not involved in anything. I have a part time work study job (IT, not just answering a phone) which I plan on doing all 4 years, and I worked in a convenience store during high school and last summer, but besides that I don't have anything to put on my resume.

I'm a first generation college student, but I'm also male, white, lower-middle class, have married parents, and am not missing any limbs or anything, so I don't expect my "life story" to win over adcoms.

Really praying all you "only gpa and lsat matter" people on TLS are correct lol

jkhalfa wrote:I'm worried about this too. Currently a sophomore shooting for a T6, which I think is a somewhat reasonable goal (4.23 gpa with double major and 164 diagnostic), but I'm not involved in anything. I have a part time work study job (IT, not just answering a phone) which I plan on doing all 4 years, and I worked in a convenience store during high school and last summer, but besides that I don't have anything to put on my resume.

I'm a first generation college student, but I'm also male, white, lower-middle class, have married parents, and am not missing any limbs or anything, so I don't expect my "life story" to win over adcoms.

Really praying all you "only gpa and lsat matter" people on TLS are correct lol

Softs are the sort of thing that only really matter if you're doing them cause you want to. The kind that you do to pad a resume are just filler. If they're easy to do, they will have that little impact on your cycle.

If you want to: work at a "real job", join the army, play NCAA sports, get a Fulbright etc. regardless of law school then go for it. If not, spend your time on the things that have the biggest impact (LSAT and GPA).

ScottRiqui wrote: ... I probably put more stock in "soft factors" than most here...

I imagine that this has something to do with the fact that your softs are better than the vast majority of those here on the forum.

haus wrote:

ScottRiqui wrote: ... I probably put more stock in "soft factors" than most here...

I imagine that this has something to do with the fact that your softs are better than the vast majority of those here on the forum.

Well, it's not just that I value softs because I have them. It's more that I think my cycle went better than I thought it should have, considering my uGPA, so I'm a little more inclined to believe in "holistic review" than most on TLS.

ScottRiqui wrote:

haus wrote:

ScottRiqui wrote: ... I probably put more stock in "soft factors" than most here...

I imagine that this has something to do with the fact that your softs are better than the vast majority of those here on the forum.

Well, it's not just that I value softs because I have them. It's more that I think my cycle went better than I thought it should have, considering my uGPA, so I'm a little more inclined to believe in "holistic review" than most on TLS.

Or could it be simply that the LSAT carries that much more weight? At least with those schools.

I have pretty good softs too, but I'm pretty sure my cycle went just as my numbers would indicate. Softs didn't turn out to be as important as I thought they would be, at least not for me.

(Edited to correct a tiny typo, because OCD)

JazzieShizzle wrote: Or could is be simply that the LSAT carries that much more weight? At least with those schools.

It's possible, but one of the schools was UT, which had a well-established "hard" GPA floor, and up until this cycle, the conventional TLS wisdom was that I didn't have a chance there, no matter how good my softs or LSAT were. But I was accepted with the first wave of ED admits, so it worked out. I'll admit that I can't quantify how much of that was my softs, how much of it was the lowering standards because of the reduction in applicants, or whether I got a significant boost by applying ED (which is new to UT this cycle).

To get a better idea of whether I would "outperform my numbers", I toyed with the idea of blanketing the T14 just for shits and giggles, but I'm glad I didn't; the binding UT acceptance three weeks into my cycle would have meant that I likely wouldn't have gotten replies from anyone else before having to withdraw my apps.

ScottRiqui wrote:

JazzieShizzle wrote: Or could it be simply that the LSAT carries that much more weight? At least with those schools.

It's possible, but one of the schools was UT, which had a well-established "hard" GPA floor, and up until this cycle, the conventional TLS wisdom was that I didn't have a chance there, no matter how good my softs or LSAT were. But I was accepted with the first wave of ED admits, so it worked out. I'll admit that I can't quantify how much of that was my softs, how much of it was the lowering standards because of the reduction in applicants, or whether I got a significant boost by applying ED (which is new to UT this cycle).

To get a better idea of whether I would "outperform my numbers", I toyed with the idea of blanketing the T14 just for shits and giggles, but I'm glad I didn't; the binding UT acceptance three weeks into my cycle would have meant that I likely wouldn't have gotten replies from anyone else before having to withdraw my apps.

Well whatever the reason, congrats!

JazzieShizzle wrote: Well whatever the reason, congrats!

Thanks! I still think the OP doesn't have anything to worry about, as long as he gets an LSAT score commensurate with his uGPA. If he does that, softs won't matter much one way or the other.

ScottRiqui wrote:

JazzieShizzle wrote: Well whatever the reason, congrats!

Thanks! I still think the OP doesn't have anything to worry about, as long as he gets an LSAT score commensurate with his uGPA. If he does that, softs won't matter much one way or the other.

Not to mention the OP has acceptable softs.

notalobbyist wrote:Softs are the sort of thing that only really matter if you're doing them cause you want to. The kind that you do to pad a resume are just filler. If they're easy to do, they will have that little impact on your cycle.

Exactly. Don't worry so much about softs right now, especially student organizations—those don't really mean much at all. Your internships are fine, but just try to keep up your GPA and get the best possible LSAT score you can.

Of course, if you find something you'd be interested in doing (a cool job/internship/abroad program/etc.), then by all means do it. Just make sure (if you are absolutely certain you want to be an attorney) that whatever that is doesn't jeopardize your grades and/or your study time for the LSAT.

Also, I know you didn't ask about this, but unless you're dead-set on going straight to law school after undergrad, you might consider taking some time off in between. This is probably the best time to develop your softs, and add some meaningful things to your resume. Plus, it might be nice just to take a break from school after ~17 consecutive years of it. It most likely wouldn't affect you in any negative way—where I've seen it have any effect at all, it has been quite positive. Lots of people on this board will tell you the same thing.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck with everything!

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jkhalfa wrote:I'm worried about this too. Currently a sophomore shooting for a T6, which I think is a somewhat reasonable goal (4.23 gpa with double major and 164 diagnostic), but I'm not involved in anything. I have a part time work study job (IT, not just answering a phone) which I plan on doing all 4 years, and I worked in a convenience store during high school and last summer, but besides that I don't have anything to put on my resume.

I'm a first generation college student, but I'm also male, white, lower-middle class, have married parents, and am not missing any limbs or anything, so I don't expect my "life story" to win over adcoms.

Really praying all you "only gpa and lsat matter" people on TLS are correct lol

Quit stressing gunnner Sophomore. With a 164 diagnostic, getting a mid-170s with sufficient study time will be a breeze. Keep that GPA high and you'll be happy with your law school admission results. You're a white male from a middle class background? Shit, you're just like everybody else applying. Calm down.

copingtrope wrote:

notalobbyist wrote:Softs are the sort of thing that only really matter if you're doing them cause you want to. The kind that you do to pad a resume are just filler. If they're easy to do, they will have that little impact on your cycle.

Exactly. Don't worry so much about softs right now, especially student organizations—those don't really mean much at all. Your internships are fine, but just try to keep up your GPA and get the best possible LSAT score you can.

Of course, if you find something you'd be interested in doing (a cool job/internship/abroad program/etc.), then by all means do it. Just make sure (if you are absolutely certain you want to be an attorney) that whatever that is doesn't jeopardize your grades and/or your study time for the LSAT.

Also, I know you didn't ask about this, but unless you're dead-set on going straight to law school after undergrad, you might consider taking some time off in between. This is probably the best time to develop your softs, and add some meaningful things to your resume. Plus, it might be nice just to take a break from school after ~17 consecutive years of it. It most likely wouldn't affect you in any negative way—where I've seen it have any effect at all, it has been quite positive. Lots of people on this board will tell you the same thing.

Anyway, just some thoughts. Good luck with everything!

Yeah I have heard that from some people, but I think I want to just get started right away. I was lucky enough to do some traveling last year and I just can't think of a good reason to wait around. Who knows, maybe I'll regret it, but law school is gonna put me in enough debt that the earlier I can start, the better.

alansadler wrote:I just can't think of a good reason to wait around.

alansadler wrote:law school is gonna put me in enough debt

Taking a break is actually a great way to minimize your debt. You could find a job, save up, become a more marketable law school applicant, and maybe even study for the LSAT during that time (so you wouldn't have to do it during school, which might force you to compromise some of your grades and/or LSAT points). This could get you into better schools, and you could also get more scholarships this way.

Again, though, you should do what you think is best. But it's just good to know that taking some time off from school is an option that could benefit you in lots of ways.

james.bungles wrote:How did you get your GPA that high? What kind of godly ability do you have to get an A+ in almost every class?

1. Hard work (you saw the part where I have no life outside of school and work, right? lol).

2. Asking around and using RateMyProfessor to find profs who grade easy.

3. Taking easier classes for non-major stuff. Last semester I took Intro to Psych for a science gen ed. Got an A+ without ever touching the textbook. I feel like if I'm doing a double major I'm entitled to softball classes occasionally.

4. Exploiting my natural talents. My first semester I discovered that apparently I'm good at writing, so I decided to do an English major (in addition to philosophy). If you're good at something you might as well reap the rewards, right? Originally I planned to do CS so I had a backup plan if law school didn't work out, but I doubt I'd be getting A+'s in those classes.

I kinda feel bad for students at schools that only give A's. For example, Pitt and Pennstate are basically equivalent academically, but we have a huge advantage over the kids in state college because Pitt gives A+'s. Assuming I keep a 4.0 this semester, I could get straight A-'s all next year and still apply to law school with a 4.0, which honestly is kinda bullshit, but hey, I'm not complaining.

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True story: I thought this thread was going to be about disappointing bewbs.

For once, I assumed the prurience of TLS and was proved, shockingly, wrong.

notalobbyist wrote:Don't sweat the soft stuff.

Or don't sweat the petty stuff, and don't pet the sweaty stuff.

Optimist Prime wrote:I actually find it mind blowing that they allow A+s to count as a 4.33 towards your LSAC gpa. It gives a patently unfair advantage

I think for med school A = A+ = 4.0. LSAC's way is a tad ridiculous, and exploiting it is a bit underhanded, but is that really different from choosing an easy major or easy professors/classes? We're going into law, a cutthroat world of bell curves and shrinking employment. If you can game the system to get an advantage you'd be stupid not to. And idk if you can call it unfair since you had the same opportunity to go to an A+ school, right?