Challenging TLS common wisdom to "wait a cycle" for more aid
Posted: Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:03 pm
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The exit option if big law doesn't happen. 160k isn't guaranteed, maybe half gets it, if that. If you only have 20k in debt when you strikeout in Fall of 2L then you're not sunk in the water. If you're 100k in debt, you are. Additionally, the life span of a big law attorney isn't 40 years. Those 160-220k days may be few in number so you want to make the most out of them.theramblingfool wrote:I get it. Attending law school is expensive. Incredibly expensive. But if you're facing the decision of matriculating or waiting another cycle for a better LSAT and more aid at a T14 school (especially the top half of T14), I don't see how this is a no-brainer.
If your plan is to just go into biglaw post-grad, it looks like $160k is a reasonable income to expect. After taxes, that's probably arond $120k. Currently, I am a software engineer, and after taxes I make around $40k. That's a fair income to use for this comparison.
So if I decide to wait a cycle to apply, that is one less year, potentially, for me to work in biglaw, so -$120k. One additional year at my current job would be +$40k. So the difference in aid offered after waiting would have to be around $80k just to break even.
Help me out. Is my logic flawed here?
Essentially, then, most of the mid to lower t14 students that aren't set on doing PI are taking a 50/50 chance at the salary that's going to pay off their large debts? Most aren't getting large scholarships, so even going to the mid to lower t14 on low to moderate scholarships doesn't make much sense to me either.PepperJack wrote:The exit option if big law doesn't happen. 160k isn't guaranteed, maybe half gets it, if that. If you only have 20k in debt when you strikeout in Fall of 2L then you're not sunk in the water. If you're 100k in debt, you are. Additionally, the life span of a big law attorney isn't 40 years. Those 160-220k days may be few in number so you want to make the most out of them.theramblingfool wrote:I get it. Attending law school is expensive. Incredibly expensive. But if you're facing the decision of matriculating or waiting another cycle for a better LSAT and more aid at a T14 school (especially the top half of T14), I don't see how this is a no-brainer.
If your plan is to just go into biglaw post-grad, it looks like $160k is a reasonable income to expect. After taxes, that's probably arond $120k. Currently, I am a software engineer, and after taxes I make around $40k. That's a fair income to use for this comparison.
So if I decide to wait a cycle to apply, that is one less year, potentially, for me to work in biglaw, so -$120k. One additional year at my current job would be +$40k. So the difference in aid offered after waiting would have to be around $80k just to break even.
Help me out. Is my logic flawed here?
Statistically, if you go early and crack the top 20% then your logic is right. If you're median or worse (about 75% of the class) then it's wrong.
Isn't it really easy to get a PSLF-eligible job? Not a *legal* PSLF/LRAP eligible job, obviously, but some sort of non-profit job shouldn't be insanely difficult. That's 10 years of living without a lot of money, but you're only paying IBR rates, so it would at least be livable.Otunga wrote:Essentially, then, most of the mid to lower t14 students that aren't set on doing PI are taking a 50/50 chance at the salary that's going to pay off their large debts? Most aren't getting large scholarships, so even going to the mid to lower t14 on low to moderate scholarships doesn't make much sense to me either.PepperJack wrote:The exit option if big law doesn't happen. 160k isn't guaranteed, maybe half gets it, if that. If you only have 20k in debt when you strikeout in Fall of 2L then you're not sunk in the water. If you're 100k in debt, you are. Additionally, the life span of a big law attorney isn't 40 years. Those 160-220k days may be few in number so you want to make the most out of them.theramblingfool wrote:I get it. Attending law school is expensive. Incredibly expensive. But if you're facing the decision of matriculating or waiting another cycle for a better LSAT and more aid at a T14 school (especially the top half of T14), I don't see how this is a no-brainer.
If your plan is to just go into biglaw post-grad, it looks like $160k is a reasonable income to expect. After taxes, that's probably arond $120k. Currently, I am a software engineer, and after taxes I make around $40k. That's a fair income to use for this comparison.
So if I decide to wait a cycle to apply, that is one less year, potentially, for me to work in biglaw, so -$120k. One additional year at my current job would be +$40k. So the difference in aid offered after waiting would have to be around $80k just to break even.
Help me out. Is my logic flawed here?
Statistically, if you go early and crack the top 20% then your logic is right. If you're median or worse (about 75% of the class) then it's wrong.
Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Thing is, I think you have to hold the job to secure the low rates. If you get out of work, I'm under the impression you go back to standard rates if out of PI work too long.midwest17 wrote:Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Admittedly, I don't know how hard it would be to actually get one of those jobs. But it seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult (at least, relative to getting any job in this economy).
I think it might partially depend on how governmental budget talks progress now and in the coming months (a long-term budget deal might help a lot, but it might not help at all), but generally speaking, most governmental agencies and programs are not bursting at the purse string with money. What that means is generally a hiring freeze across most agencies.midwest17 wrote:Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Admittedly, I don't know how hard it would be to actually get one of those jobs. But it seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult (at least, relative to getting any job in this economy).
It's not lower rates (it's still IBR, or whatever the acronym is now), it's non-taxable forgiveness after 10 years instead of taxable forgiveness after 25 (or 20?)Otunga wrote:Thing is, I think you have to hold the job to secure the low rates. If you get out of work, I'm under the impression you go back to standard rates if out of PI work too long.midwest17 wrote:Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Admittedly, I don't know how hard it would be to actually get one of those jobs. But it seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult (at least, relative to getting any job in this economy).
I'm quite certain you have to be full-time (30+ hours/week) to be eligible for PSLF.midwest17 wrote:Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Admittedly, I don't know how hard it would be to actually get one of those jobs. But it seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult (at least, relative to getting any job in this economy).
koalacity wrote:I'm quite certain you have to be full-time (30+ hours/week) to be eligible for PSLF.midwest17 wrote:Like I said, I'm not talking about LRAP. But PSLF works for any government or tax-exempt public interest job, not just legal ones, I think.matthewsean85 wrote:You need to check a lot of the LRAPs at the various schools, cause most require it to be a full time legal job. Check out twenty's guide to T14 LRAP for better explanations on this, but it's not as easy as it might seem.
Admittedly, I don't know how hard it would be to actually get one of those jobs. But it seems like it wouldn't be terribly difficult (at least, relative to getting any job in this economy).
Plus, relying solely on PSLF is a little risky since Congress could theoretically change it or axe it entirely whenever they feel like it. Of course, I think that's part of the reason the T14 (and some other schools) have their own LRAPs.
Thanks for the clarification twenty. I knew I was by no means an expert about PSLF/LRAP, but it just seemed cavalier to say those jobs were easy to get. Then again, I was thinking about more prestigious stuff, not your average ditch digger.twenty wrote:**dies inside**
PSLF = applies to all full time public service jobs. After ten years, any remaining debt you have goes bye-bye. Forgiven debt is not taxable.
PAYE = applies to all jobs, period. You can get this if you're working at Starbucks. With this plan, any debt you have after 20 years is forgiven, but the forgiven amount is taxable.
PAYE + PSLF = applies to all full time public service jobs. You pay based on your salary for ten years, and then PSLF covers the rest. As midwest pointed out, you can get this very, very easily. Hell, enlisting in the Army qualifies for this, and I'm sure you can get a gig as a police officer/librarian/county-ditch-digger if you absolutely had to have PAYE + PSLF.
PAYE + PSLF + LRAP = applies to all full time public service legal jobs. As matthewsean points out, getting one of these jobs is definitely not as easy as it seems.
No income tax in Texas because, well, it's Texas.Cicero76 wrote:Where does $160k turn into $120k after taxes? Texas?