Is there even a point of going to law school? Forum

[midwest17]

Urban areas are largely transitioning towards few physicians and more PAs and practitioners as reimbursement rates continue to decline.

Being a PA might actually be a good choice, if you're not obsessed with money: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jacquelynsm ... or-jobs-2/

[BadAsIWantToBreathe]

Brahs.

I just want to make a lot of money you know? I'm talking 300k+ before I'm 30 nomsaiyan?

I don't necessarily need to be Ceo/10k a day but I know brain surgeons get paid 500k plus and i-bankers can potential make up to half a million dollars in their 5th-6th years.

Both biglaw and i-banking hours are tireless...but I'm willing to do it. I have all the time to rest when I die.

Which is easier to break into (I'm at a top 20 school, our undergraduate business school is top 10, but I'm not in there obviously) or biglaw.

[Yardbird]

Chance of getting into a T14: 7% (from LSAC data)
Chance of getting biglaw coming out of T14: roughly 40-60% depending on school (from LST data, rough rounding/averaging)
Chance of making partner: roughly 1% (general word of mouth that 1/100 associates makes partner at a biglaw, not counting WLRK)

Probability of a 0L getting into a T14 & getting biglaw & making partner = 0.042% and that's taking the 60% above.
If you actually get into the T14, probability of getting biglaw & making partner = 0.6%
If you get biglaw, the probability of making partner is roughly 1% (and possibly rises with each year you are with the firm).

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Brahs.

I just want to make a lot of money you know? I'm talking 300k+ before I'm 30 nomsaiyan?

I don't necessarily need to be Ceo/10k a day but I know brain surgeons get paid 500k plus and i-bankers can potential make up to half a million dollars in their 5th-6th years.

Both biglaw and i-banking hours are tireless...but I'm willing to do it. I have all the time to rest when I die.

Which is easier to break into (I'm at a top 20 school, our undergraduate business school is top 10, but I'm not in there obviously) or biglaw.

The only way to make $300k is to go analyst to associate to VP at bulge bracket, wherein you'll make $400-500k. It takes six or seven years out of UG and only about 1% of analysts will eventually make VP. I-banking hours are also, on the whole, worse than Biglaw.

If you could wait until 32 and you're dead set on $$$$, partner at Cravath or Wachtell is TCR. Odds of making partner at Cravath would be really low (3-4%), but still better than odds of making VP from analyst. That starts at $1.5M-ish, which puts even experienced MDs to show. Plus you're outearning I-bankers for five years if you don't make it. A Wachtell partner probably starts in the same range, maybe a little more. Making partner would be much easier there, but that's assuming you could get your foot in the door in the first place. (I don't think anyone else's partners start at > $1M, correct me if I'm wrong.)

I-banking is easier to break into, but you make less money and it's harder to advance, although you do get to start right out of school.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Chance of getting into a T14: 7% (from LSAC data)
Chance of getting biglaw coming out of T14: roughly 40-60% depending on school (from LST data, rough rounding/averaging)
Chance of making partner: roughly 1% (general word of mouth that 1/100 associates makes partner at a biglaw, not counting WLRK)

Probability of a 0L getting into a T14 & getting biglaw & making partner = 0.042% and that's taking the 60% above.
If you actually get into the T14, probability of getting biglaw & making partner = 0.6%
If you get biglaw, the probability of making partner is roughly 1% (and possibly rises with each year you are with the firm).

I think this is an overly gloomy analysis for a few reasons:

1. Chance of getting into a T14 is a given with the right numbers. Any advice on Biglaw is predicated on assuming you've gotten T14 first. If not, obviously don't go, but I wouldn't factor it as a multiplied risk. If we're looking at this kind of analysis as a choice, we're presuming you have the stats for T14 but you could also go straight into IB.

2. Chance of getting Biglaw coming out of T14 is a little higher than 40-60% after self-selection is factored out. Remember LST data sets a floor on placement power, not a ceiling. I'd say you average probably around 65% in T14 for those who are deadset on it.

3. Chance of making partner is well above 1%. Even Cravath, at which the chance is hardest, promotes 2-3 partners a year per associate class of 80. Then factor in that a third are gone by three years and the overwhelming majority of those leave voluntarily. At the average firm you're talking probably 10-15% for those who are deadset on it.

Those are the figures I'd multiply together. For someone with requisite numbers who is absolutely deadset on making partner, I'd give a figure of around 7-10%, depending on what firm you choose.

ETA: That figure is probably similar to what an analyst who is absolutely deadset on making VP can expect their chances to be.

[BadAsIWantToBreathe]

Chance of getting into a T14: 7% (from LSAC data)
Chance of getting biglaw coming out of T14: roughly 40-60% depending on school (from LST data, rough rounding/averaging)
Chance of making partner: roughly 1% (general word of mouth that 1/100 associates makes partner at a biglaw, not counting WLRK)

Probability of a 0L getting into a T14 & getting biglaw & making partner = 0.042% and that's taking the 60% above.
If you actually get into the T14, probability of getting biglaw & making partner = 0.6%
If you get biglaw, the probability of making partner is roughly 1% (and possibly rises with each year you are with the firm).

I think this is an overly gloomy analysis for a few reasons:

1. Chance of getting into a T14 is a given with the right numbers. Any advice on Biglaw is predicated on assuming you've gotten T14 first. If not, obviously don't go, but I wouldn't factor it as a multiplied risk. If we're looking at this kind of analysis as a choice, we're presuming you have the stats for T14 but you could also go straight into IB.

2. Chance of getting Biglaw coming out of T14 is a little higher than 40-60% after self-selection is factored out. Remember LST data sets a floor on placement power, not a ceiling. I'd say you average probably around 65% in T14 for those who are deadset on it.

3. Chance of making partner is well above 1%. Even Cravath, at which the chance is hardest, promotes 2-3 partners a year per associate class of 80. Then factor in that a third are gone by three years and the overwhelming majority of those leave voluntarily. At the average firm you're talking probably 10-15% for those who are deadset on it.

Those are the figures I'd multiply together. For someone with requisite numbers who is absolutely deadset on making partner, I'd give a figure of around 7-10%, depending on what firm you choose.

ETA: That figure is probably similar to what an analyst who is absolutely deadset on making VP can expect their chances to be.

Aware me on what TCR means. Also, biglaw people NOT PARTNERS don't earn 300K? (not starting of course).

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Aware me on what TCR means. Also, biglaw people NOT PARTNERS don't earn 300K? (not starting of course).

TCR = The Credited Response, aka the thing you want to do/take heed of.

Seventh-year associates at market wage with Cravath Scale bonuses made a little over $300k last year. That's usually the last year before you either make partner or you don't. Nearly everyone who doesn't make partner is gone after that, save for the few who stay on as counsel or whatnot.

I think the only firms where you can make $300k before then are Wachtell and Boies Schiller, but someone correct me if I'm wrong. Wachtell associates make $300k by their fourth year, whereas Boies midlevel associates can pull in giant merit-based bonuses that push them over $300k, depending on their performance.

I think those two are your only hope to make $300k before 30.

[jbagelboy]

Chance of getting into a T14: 7% (from LSAC data)
Chance of getting biglaw coming out of T14: roughly 40-60% depending on school (from LST data, rough rounding/averaging)
Chance of making partner: roughly 1% (general word of mouth that 1/100 associates makes partner at a biglaw, not counting WLRK)

Probability of a 0L getting into a T14 & getting biglaw & making partner = 0.042% and that's taking the 60% above.
If you actually get into the T14, probability of getting biglaw & making partner = 0.6%
If you get biglaw, the probability of making partner is roughly 1% (and possibly rises with each year you are with the firm).

I think this is an overly gloomy analysis for a few reasons:

1. Chance of getting into a T14 is a given with the right numbers. Any advice on Biglaw is predicated on assuming you've gotten T14 first. If not, obviously don't go, but I wouldn't factor it as a multiplied risk. If we're looking at this kind of analysis as a choice, we're presuming you have the stats for T14 but you could also go straight into IB.

2. Chance of getting Biglaw coming out of T14 is a little higher than 40-60% after self-selection is factored out. Remember LST data sets a floor on placement power, not a ceiling. I'd say you average probably around 65% in T14 for those who are deadset on it.

3. Chance of making partner is well above 1%. Even Cravath, at which the chance is hardest, promotes 2-3 partners a year per associate class of 80. Then factor in that a third are gone by three years and the overwhelming majority of those leave voluntarily. At the average firm you're talking probably 10-15% for those who are deadset on it.

Those are the figures I'd multiply together. For someone with requisite numbers who is absolutely deadset on making partner, I'd give a figure of around 7-10%, depending on what firm you choose.

ETA: That figure is probably similar to what an analyst who is absolutely deadset on making VP can expect their chances to be.

Aware me on what TCR means. Also, biglaw people NOT PARTNERS don't earn 300K? (not starting of course).

theoretically, if you stayed with the same NYC NLJ250/vault firm for 10 years, you would hit $300K base:

http://www.lawfirmstats.com/firms/Crava ... sation.php

Cravath has set the standard for biglaw associate pay for the recent past. According to this graph, you're looking at a potential for pre-tax $350,000 income (bonus included) as an associate without making partner.

However, you should note the rate of attrition within 5 years is very high -- upwards of 70%. And before you think "that won't be me," recall that those getting jobs at Cravath-esque firms in the first place are extremely well qualified and hard working (the top 20% of T14's).

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

However, you should note the rate of attrition within 5 years is very high -- upwards of 70%. And before you think "that won't be me," recall that those getting jobs at Cravath-esque firms in the first place are extremely well qualified and hard working (the top 20% of T14's).

Yeah, I forgot to mention this.

For the first three years or so, most anyone who leaves Biglaw is doing so of their own volition (unless there's a serious problem with you, your work or your firm). That's about a third of the associate class.

Between about year three and year five, associates are generally told if they have no future within the firm. By year five 71% of the class are gone (on average).

After that, usually the only people left are the ones with a real chance to make partner or the ones who are just trying to make a little more money (or otherwise don't mind working at a place that has told them they have no future there, for whatever reason).

So by the time you get to $300k, you're not really in control of whether you want to continue working at the firm anymore.

[BadAsIWantToBreathe]

However, you should note the rate of attrition within 5 years is very high -- upwards of 70%. And before you think "that won't be me," recall that those getting jobs at Cravath-esque firms in the first place are extremely well qualified and hard working (the top 20% of T14's).

Yeah, I forgot to mention this.

For the first three years or so, most anyone who leaves Biglaw is doing so of their own volition (unless there's a serious problem with you, your work or your firm). That's about a third of the associate class.

Between about year three and year five, associates are generally told if they have no future within the firm. By year five 71% of the class are gone (on average).

After that, usually the only people left are the ones with a real chance to make partner or the ones who are just trying to make a little more money (or otherwise don't mind working at a place that has told them they have no future there, for whatever reason).

So by the time you get to $300k, you're not really in control of whether you want to continue working at the firm anymore.

Whenever I get a package of plain M&Ms, I make it my duty to continue the strength and robustness of the candy as a species. To this end, I hold M&M duels.

Taking two candies between my thumb and forefinger, I apply pressure, squeezing them together until one of them cracks and splinters. That is the "loser," and I eat the inferior one immediately. The winner gets to go another round.

I have found that, in general, the brown and red M&Ms are tougher, and the newer blue ones are genetically inferior. I have hypothesized that the blue M&Ms as a race cannot survive long in the intense theater of competition that is the modern candy and snack-food world.

Occasionally I will get a mutation, a candy that is misshapen, or pointier, or flatter than the rest. Almost invariably this proves to be a weakness, but on very rare occasions it gives the candy extra strength. In this way, the species continues to adapt to its environment.

When I reach the end of the pack, I am left with one M&M, the strongest of the herd. Since it would make no sense to eat this one as well, I pack it neatly in an envelope and send it to M&M Mars, A Division of Mars, Inc., Hackettstown, NJ 17840-1503 U.S.A., along with a 3x5 card reading, "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes."

This week they wrote back to thank me, and sent me a coupon for a free 1/2 pound bag of plain M&Ms. I consider this "grant money." I have set aside the weekend for a grand tournament. From a field of hundreds, we will discover the True Champion.

There can be only one.

[bearsfan23]

My quick thought: if all options are available (and not knowing you), I would say go to med school IF you're comfortable living in rural America. Urban areas are largely transitioning towards few physicians and more PAs and practitioners as reimbursement rates continue to decline. Small towns still need doctors, however. This whole "don't do X unless you're really sure you want to do it..." advice is largely worthless because it is very rare that a person gets to truly understand what any career is like on a day to day basis without doing it. So you'll always be taking a leap of faith. The reason I say med school is this: it's one of the few career paths that allow a six figure salary without being strapped in front of a computer screen for the VAST majority of your 60ish hours/week. Also, it won't be 60 hrs. Post-residency it'll be 40 or so. And you have a ton more flexibility in taking vacations. You will not be at the beck and call of clients. I know many law associates who have gone YEARS without taking a real vacation. Of course, in medicine, these things vary by specialty. My brother is an ER doc. He makes 250k and rarely works 40 hrs per week. There are a lot of disgruntled physicians right now, but in my opinion they've been so spoiled for so long that a slight decline in compensation and quality of life has them up in arms. Most of the 20-25 year olds on this board did not feel like doing a hard major for undergrad (although I don't think a bit organic chemistry is really asking all that much) and they feel like 30 (the age when they would be done with medical residency and have improved salary/quality of life) is REALLY OLD, hence they are going to law school rather than med school. And frankly, when I was 22, I though 30 was pretty fucking old, too. A few years down the road they will regret that decision.

The above is absolutely ridiculous and not true. So your brother being an ER doc makes you qualified to evaluate the medical profession as a whole?

Many, many doctors work at least 60-80 hours per week, not to mention the schooling and residency can make it eight years or so before you actually start making money. The M.D. route is definitely not an easy, get rich quick scheme.

Also, I know many law associates, I know ZERO who have never taken a vacation in a few years. This is BS and is really just trolling the board, don't listen to that poster

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Whenever I get a package of plain M&Ms, I make it my duty to continue the strength and robustness of the candy as a species. To this end, I hold M&M duels.

Taking two candies between my thumb and forefinger, I apply pressure, squeezing them together until one of them cracks and splinters. That is the "loser," and I eat the inferior one immediately. The winner gets to go another round.

I have found that, in general, the brown and red M&Ms are tougher, and the newer blue ones are genetically inferior. I have hypothesized that the blue M&Ms as a race cannot survive long in the intense theater of competition that is the modern candy and snack-food world.

Occasionally I will get a mutation, a candy that is misshapen, or pointier, or flatter than the rest. Almost invariably this proves to be a weakness, but on very rare occasions it gives the candy extra strength. In this way, the species continues to adapt to its environment.

When I reach the end of the pack, I am left with one M&M, the strongest of the herd. Since it would make no sense to eat this one as well, I pack it neatly in an envelope and send it to M&M Mars, A Division of Mars, Inc., Hackettstown, NJ 17840-1503 U.S.A., along with a 3x5 card reading, "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes."

This week they wrote back to thank me, and sent me a coupon for a free 1/2 pound bag of plain M&Ms. I consider this "grant money." I have set aside the weekend for a grand tournament. From a field of hundreds, we will discover the True Champion.

There can be only one.

Did you really want to go full troll that quickly? Your semi-trolling about "brahs" and "smashing sloots" at least managed to incidentally raise some actual law-related issues.

[BadAsIWantToBreathe]

Whenever I get a package of plain M&Ms, I make it my duty to continue the strength and robustness of the candy as a species. To this end, I hold M&M duels.

Taking two candies between my thumb and forefinger, I apply pressure, squeezing them together until one of them cracks and splinters. That is the "loser," and I eat the inferior one immediately. The winner gets to go another round.

I have found that, in general, the brown and red M&Ms are tougher, and the newer blue ones are genetically inferior. I have hypothesized that the blue M&Ms as a race cannot survive long in the intense theater of competition that is the modern candy and snack-food world.

Occasionally I will get a mutation, a candy that is misshapen, or pointier, or flatter than the rest. Almost invariably this proves to be a weakness, but on very rare occasions it gives the candy extra strength. In this way, the species continues to adapt to its environment.

When I reach the end of the pack, I am left with one M&M, the strongest of the herd. Since it would make no sense to eat this one as well, I pack it neatly in an envelope and send it to M&M Mars, A Division of Mars, Inc., Hackettstown, NJ 17840-1503 U.S.A., along with a 3x5 card reading, "Please use this M&M for breeding purposes."

This week they wrote back to thank me, and sent me a coupon for a free 1/2 pound bag of plain M&Ms. I consider this "grant money." I have set aside the weekend for a grand tournament. From a field of hundreds, we will discover the True Champion.

There can be only one.

Did you really want to go full troll that quickly? Your semi-trolling about "brahs" and "smashing sloots" at least managed to incidentally raise some actual law-related issues.

Read between the lines.

Also can you answer my question regarding your GPA, LSAT, etc? A few posts back.

Also what is the paystep for biglaw companies?

[Huey Freeman]

About Tech Firm salaries...Microsoft engineering (Software Devs and Hardware Engineers) start at 100k + bonuses/stock options. That's the only one I know about, but I imagine Facebook/Google/Apple etc. are all similarly competitive.

Anyone know about structure of management consulting salaries? it's kind of interesting to hear about the "best way to make it rain" debate.

[smaug_]

M&Ms copypasta

I love that one.

[bk1]

M&Ms copypasta

First and only warning: no trolling by repasting stories from other websites.

[john1990]

My goal is to go into biglaw and eventually become partner.
But everyone says stay away from law school.

is there even a point?

Should I just switch to pre-Med?

Not if this is your only goal. But, law is very profitable The T14 does well in biglaw and many schools will big you a shot in the T1 and even some in the T2 will give you a fighting chance. BLS comes to mind. Even if you do not get a job requiring a law degree it can still help you in business.

[BadAsIWantToBreathe]

M&Ms copypasta

First and only warning: no trolling by repasting stories from other websites.

Of which I did neither.

[jbagelboy]

Anyone know about structure of management consulting salaries? it's kind of interesting to hear about the "best way to make it rain" debate.

I worked in consulting bfore law school, still have a lot of friends in it, and I went through the entire application/interview/offer process at several firms so I have some insight.

At the Analyst (after undergrad) level:

Tippy top firms like Mckinsey and BCG (which typically only recruit from a selection of Ivy league schools, top b-school programs like Northwestern, Stanford, and MIT, and prestigious liberal arts colleges like Amherst and Pomona, with a 3.9+ GPA and 2200+ SAT requirement, yes, you have to bold your SAT scores on your resume) pay out comparable to banking for base salary ~$70K, but have lower bonuses in the $10-15K range. Could be single digit bonus if you didn't have many projects or your work was mediocre. There isn't much of a bargaining process on salary here since they control the market and take very few people. Needless to say with my grades, I did not get any jobs at these very top firms.

Going down the vault list to Deloitte and similar nationwide firms, salary points go down to the $60-65K range + $5-8K bonus, commensurate with "experience" (if you did your summer there, or you had leverage in negotiation with competing offers). This would describe the firm I worked for.

In all of the above, salaries for Analysts are "re-evaluated" each year, usually in the summer (mine was July). I've never heard of them going down, but they can stay the same. If you aren't performing though, usually you are fired rather than stalled. Most analysts do 2 or 3 years in the firm before moving on to law school, business school, going into industry, or something else, so the salaries don't increase by all that much by the time people leave, but they will go up a little.

Then you have small and mid-sized firms which will basically pay whatever they can afford since they don't have a set number of competitors. There was a boutique executive pay consulting firm in Beverly Hills that I didn't make it past the 2nd interview for that paid at Mckinsey level (~$70K+bonus), and then there are firms that go as low as $40K in lower CoL areas like Minneapolis or St Louis.

At the associate or manager level when you return with an MBA, my understanding is that the standard level falls around ~$120K + bonus. This is probably higher at the larger firms

[TheWeeIceMon]

My quick thought: if all options are available (and not knowing you), I would say go to med school IF you're comfortable living in rural America. Urban areas are largely transitioning towards few physicians and more PAs and practitioners as reimbursement rates continue to decline. Small towns still need doctors, however. This whole "don't do X unless you're really sure you want to do it..." advice is largely worthless because it is very rare that a person gets to truly understand what any career is like on a day to day basis without doing it. So you'll always be taking a leap of faith. The reason I say med school is this: it's one of the few career paths that allow a six figure salary without being strapped in front of a computer screen for the VAST majority of your 60ish hours/week. Also, it won't be 60 hrs. Post-residency it'll be 40 or so. And you have a ton more flexibility in taking vacations. You will not be at the beck and call of clients. I know many law associates who have gone YEARS without taking a real vacation. Of course, in medicine, these things vary by specialty. My brother is an ER doc. He makes 250k and rarely works 40 hrs per week. There are a lot of disgruntled physicians right now, but in my opinion they've been so spoiled for so long that a slight decline in compensation and quality of life has them up in arms. Most of the 20-25 year olds on this board did not feel like doing a hard major for undergrad (although I don't think a bit organic chemistry is really asking all that much) and they feel like 30 (the age when they would be done with medical residency and have improved salary/quality of life) is REALLY OLD, hence they are going to law school rather than med school. And frankly, when I was 22, I though 30 was pretty fucking old, too. A few years down the road they will regret that decision.

The above is absolutely ridiculous and not true. So your brother being an ER doc makes you qualified to evaluate the medical profession as a whole?

Many, many doctors work at least 60-80 hours per week, not to mention the schooling and residency can make it eight years or so before you actually start making money. The M.D. route is definitely not an easy, get rich quick scheme.

Also, I know many law associates, I know ZERO who have never taken a vacation in a few years. This is BS and is really just trolling the board, don't listen to that poster

+1

Fucking LOL at the 40 hours a week post-residency comment. This guy's brother is in EM, which is a complete outlier when it comes to hours for physicians. 12 12 hour shifts a month is the common work schedule, which averages to less than 40 hours a week. This, however, IS NOT the typical case for doctors. You know what they call 40 hrs/week in medicine? Part-time.

Also, I love the comment about not being at the beck and call of clients. Just an FYI, there are these things called patients, who get sick 24 hours a day. If you don't think your ass is getting paged at 3 a.m. to do a DRE on a 85 year old gomer on christmas eve, you are in for a rude awakening.

Even though the OP is clearly just trolling, I'm still going to say that you shouldn't go to medical school if you just want to make money. It's not worth it. If all you care about is money and great hours, go to dental school.

[clay7676]

I'm pretty sure the GI bill doesn't cover law school, I know they're working on a bill in my state to have it included though (but you have to stay in state).