Top Law Schools

I'm a splitter. I've gone through a lot of resource (LSP, LSN & myLSN.info, LSAC, hourMD calculators, the TLS guide for splitters etc), so I have some ideas on the schools I should realistically apply to. I'd appreciate TLSers' inputs on them.

Schools to which I feel I have a decent chance and plan on applying:
Columbia
New York
Uni of Michigan
Northwestern (questionable b/c of no work experience)
Georgetown
Vanderbilt
UCLA
USC
WUSL

(these schools are a list made from polished knowledge of predictors and going through LSN profiles on splitters similar to me)

LSDAS not calculated yet, but I'm expecting 3.28 (down from UGPA's 3.53)
LSAT: 168, 176
Finished BS in Neuroscience in Summer 2012 - will have been out of school for a year when application starts. Took 5 years and a summer to finish what's normally a 4-year major.
No exceptional softs - some college leadership positions (some didn't end so well) and volunteer work but nothing outstanding
No work experience. I've done house remodeling for my family, so I did work, but nothing I can officially call work experience.

Addenda
GPA: I had 2 quarters of low GPA: 1.6 and 1.9 - excluding them my gpa would've been 3.637. I was overwhelmed and fell into depression, for which I have some documentation. Also I had a D and a W in a community college when I was 12, for which I know my reasons. I plan on writing an addenda. I don't plan to say I was in a special situation or anything like that. I do want to point out 3.28 isn't an accurate representation of my academic ability.

Letters
I have a letter from a professor from my university who is also the chair of my major department.
I'm getting a 2nd letter from a community college professor (with JD) I had this year in Business law.
I don't think either will be exceptionally good or bad.

Why X
I'm hoping to finish most of my application by September and visiting many of listed schools. I plan on writing a Why X essay for ones I like from this + online research

Plan for time until law school
I want to get some internship or work experience. I'm applying for internship positions at law firms. I also have some chance of working at a friend's start-up company.

I won't be indebted for going to law school. All I care about is getting into a solid position to start a career in litigation in a firm or working in government office.

Specific questions
1. What do you think about my chances at the schools listed, specifically UCLA? I've seen some people with better numbers than me get WL or rejected from UCLA, and UCLA is the one school I know I'd be happy with if I put rankings out of consideration.
2. Is it appropriate to mention my working for my family on house remodeling in the resume somewhere to somewhat patch the glaring work experience gap?
3. Do you have special suggestions for what I should do this year that would strengthen my application?
4. If I ultimately want to end up working in Cali, specifically LA, which is a better choice: Columbia/New York or UCLA/USC?
5. Honestly, apply or not to Harvard/Cal? I'm 90% certain I shouldn't. But LSAC's giving me 2-12% in those schools tempts me to apply & try. My PS's content is historically relevant to Harvard, and I would ED H if I had a chance.
6. Retake? 176 is the lowest score of my satisfactory performance. But to comfortably get 178+ I'd want to put 2+ months solely into studying, which means I'd have to take December or Feb. With those times, I'm 90% certain I'll get 176 or higher (10% for anomalies like a pattern game or an esp hard RC passage). But I plan on submitting apps before November at the latest. Is retake even worth it on this timeline & the miniscule increase when it's higher than 75% median already anyways?
7. Should I write an addenda for 168 to 176? I planned on it if I jumped more than 8 points, but I'm not sure with exactly 8 point-jump.
8. Should I write an addenda for taking 5 years and a summer to complete my BS degree when normally it takes 4 years? I ended up not attending 3 quarters, so it's technically 4 years but it's still spread out over 5 years+.
9. Some of the clubs I was involved in in a leadership position fared badly. Should I just not even mention them? If I don't, my resume will be significantly cut down. Is it acceptable (=not negative) to acknowledge that some things I've done haven't succeeded/failed and I've learned from them?

I think you have a good change of getting into UCLA, putting in some numbers on mylsn.info gives you a 2 out of 3 chance. I say those are good odds for your dream school.

I don't think it's appropriate to mention your work remodeling your family's house unless someone in your family owns a remodeling business.

Lastly, if there was any chance to get into HYS why not try? Can't hurt you and it's better knowing then going what if for the rest of your life.

Is there a reason Chicago, Penn and Virginia are missing?

I'm at Chicago with really similar numbers and I'd say it's better to be here gunning for California than it is to be at Columbia or NYU.

You should not retake, 176 is sufficient and your odds of doing worse are very high.
You shouldn't apply to Harvard, it is as close to a waste of $100 or w/e as possible. If you won't be able to sleep with regret, then do it, but you will get rejected. It is what it is.
I would apply to Berkeley though. Your odds are low, but given your goals it is worth the shot.

Specific questions
1. Your chances at UC schools are low (since they care so much about GPA). I think you have a decent chance with the other schools, but it will be unpredictable since you're splitting. Is there a reason you don't have UVA on your list?
2. I don't think that helping your family remodel (unless you were employed by the company that did it, and even then I probably wouldn't mention it) should be anywhere near your resume.
3. Get a job and apply EARLY in the cycle
4. This depends on if you prioritize any law in CA > Biglaw anywhere. If the former then UCLA/USC with money; if the latter, then a T14 with good employment numbers.
5. Apply if it will make you feel better. It's a couple hundred bucks to avoid regret and you never know, maybe you'll get in.
6. I don't think that a retake adds any value for you. Get a job instead.
7. I don't think you need to write one, but I know some schools say they require it for jumps of certain amounts. Someone else can speak to this.
8. No.
9. I don't think it's a huge deal if the clubs did badly, but you said this takes a significant chunk out of your resume. How much space are they taking up? I imagine these clubs collectively sharing a line or two on a resume.


Also, I'm interested, since I always worked (and all my friends did too, unless they were staying at school): what did you do every summer? You said you didn't work, but you also didn't have any other stuff to put on your resume. So what did you do (seriously, no judgment, just interested)?

Finally, congrats on a great score and good luck on your apps!

Cool, I understand what everyone means about remodeling exp. Ivey's recommended template has a Misc section to put foreign language/hobby. So if I have this Misc section (which I currently do), I will put it there - otherwise I won't put it at all.

2014 wrote:Is there a reason Chicago, Penn and Virginia are missing?

I'm at Chicago with really similar numbers and I'd say it's better to be here gunning for California than it is to be at Columbia or NYU.

You should not retake, 176 is sufficient and your odds of doing worse are very high.
You shouldn't apply to Harvard, it is as close to a waste of $100 or w/e as possible. If you won't be able to sleep with regret, then do it, but you will get rejected. It is what it is.
I would apply to Berkeley though. Your odds are low, but given your goals it is worth the shot.

The reason C, P, and V are missing is twofold:
1. Some predictors give me reds on them
2. The list above is made from going through 10 or so LSN applicants with numbers very similar to mine. I added to this list any school the they were accepted to. C, P, and V simply didn't accept any of them. From peoples' posts on TSL, though, now that you mention it I am surprised that UVA isn't on this list!

What makes you say that's Chicago's better than Columbia or NYU for Cali? I'm curious. I do know Columbia and NYU places 60+ in NY, is that why (these two are just specific for the NY market)? Or is it something intrinsic about UofChicago?

I understand - that's how I know it will be with Y and S. But like I replied to lhn5007, since I coincidentally found out that my PS is connected to Harvard, although weakly and only historically, I'll try it. I'll prob post my PS sometime, maybe you'll read it. I expect to be wasting the $100 like you say though.

Thanks for your input 2014, it's encouraging. I'll consider my chances, your inputs, and other inputs I get and ultimately decide when September comes by. For some reason I feel like Berkeley is a slightly less rigorous version of S - still rigorous as heck. The waiting list thread was just so brutal haha.

lhn5007 wrote:I think you have a good change of getting into UCLA, putting in some numbers on mylsn.info gives you a 2 out of 3 chance. I say those are good odds for your dream school.

Lastly, if there was any chance to get into HYS why not try? Can't hurt you and it's better knowing then going what if for the rest of your life.

Really, 2/3? http://www.mylsn.info/w6810r gave me 44%.

Also, I just can't help feeling anxious because when I've looked at the splitters on LSN, I've seen some very similar to me be rejected from UCLA. If I go through them again (time consuming to do it just to back my statement up...) I'll describe it concretely.

Because of my PS (to my surprise) does have a (weak historical) connection to H + H has a bigger class & H is more blackbox-y, I will apply to H. But Y and S, I honestly feel like it's an insult to other applicants that I would even try - there are like 3.8/170+s that are WL. I'm also 99.99% certain I won't get in. I just learned in life that usually, thinking against the odds that something will work out for me usually ends up being wrong and disappointing. Finally, if it was free I would, but it costs money and I'd just be increasing applicant numbers for them.

thanks for your input lhn5007!

hohenheim wrote:Specific questions
1. Your chances at UC schools are low (since they care so much about GPA). I think you have a decent chance with the other schools, but it will be unpredictable since you're splitting. Is there a reason you don't have UVA on your list?
3. Get a job and apply EARLY in the cycle
4. This depends on if you prioritize any law in CA > Biglaw anywhere. If the former then UCLA/USC with money; if the latter, then a T14 with good employment numbers.
5. Apply if it will make you feel better. It's a couple hundred bucks to avoid regret and you never know, maybe you'll get in.
6. I don't think that a retake adds any value for you. Get a job instead.
7. I don't think you need to write one, but I know some schools say they require it for jumps of certain amounts. Someone else can speak to this.
8. No.
9. I don't think it's a huge deal if the clubs did badly, but you said this takes a significant chunk out of your resume. How much space are they taking up? I imagine these clubs collectively sharing a line or two on a resume.


Also, I'm interested, since I always worked (and all my friends did too, unless they were staying at school): what did you do every summer? You said you didn't work, but you also didn't have any other stuff to put on your resume. So what did you do (seriously, no judgment, just interested)?

Finally, congrats on a great score and good luck on your apps!

1. The reason UVA's not in there is that when I actually went through ~10 or so similar splitters none of them were admitted to UVA. Slightly more detailed answer at response to 2014
3. I will apply early in cycle. I'm going to shoot for the internship/volunteer/work at a friend's company. I feel like those are more productive for me in the long term than getting a job I'd be qualified for like tutoring LSAT (don't really qualify for much haha;;;).
4. OK. I think I'll have to sit on this for the next 5 or 6 months when I can focus on thinking about choosing one specific school instead of worrying about my chances and PS etc.
5. OK. I"ll think about it for the next 2 months
6. OK, I felt the same way
7. Cool, I'll inquire it further
9. Ivey's book recommended/exampled giving some explanation of activities important enough to be included. So I followed that template, and wrote ~4~5 lines for each (bulletpointed so not an actual paragraph length). It's definitely not 2 lines collectively.

Haha, I understand your curiosity. I wrote up how I would explain it to myself, and I PM'ed it to you.

Thanks for your detailed input and the congratulations hohenheim!

The schools you listed are all worth applying to, but you should also apply to Penn, UVA, Duke, and Cornell. You are a lock at UVA if you ED. Michigan is also very likely with ED, and ED is your best shot at Penn, Columbia, NYU.

I had a 3.29 (no one bad semester or year though) and a 170/170/172 (lol). No way should you retake. I was PTing much higher for my retakes, and ended up scoring below average, and 176 is much much harder to beat than a 170.

FWIW, my results of the schools you listed that I applied to:
New York - rejected
Uni of Michigan - rejected
Northwestern (questionable b/c of no work experience) - accepted with $45k (2 years work experience though)
Vanderbilt - accepted with $80k
WUSL - full ride

I wish I applied to UCLA and USC in retrospect because they became much more splitter friendly this cycle.

I think your only shot at CCN is ED (or possible waitlist acceptance from NYU?), best shot at MVP is ED or very early app with convincing Why X, and that you have very good chances at the lower t14.

shifty_eyed wrote: I think your only shot at CCN is ED (or possible waitlist acceptance from NYU?), best shot at MVP is ED or very early app with convincing Why X, and that you have very good chances at the lower t14.

This is pretty flatly wrong.

OP will likely get into NYU without ED and without getting waitlisted and could get into Columbia/Chicago without ED or getting waitlisted as well.

Don't ED it would be very foolish for you to do so even with your GPA.

hibiki wrote:

shifty_eyed wrote: I think your only shot at CCN is ED (or possible waitlist acceptance from NYU?), best shot at MVP is ED or very early app with convincing Why X, and that you have very good chances at the lower t14.

This is pretty flatly wrong.

OP will likely get into NYU without ED and without getting waitlisted and could get into Columbia/Chicago without ED or getting waitlisted as well.

Don't ED it would be very foolish for you to do so even with your GPA.

We are both wrong according to LSN. He has a shot at a regular admission to NYU, but I don't like his chances at CC without ED.

You should limit the data to the past couple of cycles and realize that you're dealing with a very very small sample size. You also can't look at 173+ as though it were the same as a 176. As a 176 is above the 75th, people who score in that range tend to do much better than folks who are on the other side of the 175 line. OP has a better than coinflip chance at NYU and a 30% or better chance at CLS. Chicago is harder because they don't like splitters as much, but OP has a real shot.

More importantly, EDing is a bad idea because it kills your ability to negotiate for money. OP has a solid chance at cash in the lower T14 and a decent chance at cash in the T6.

Anyway, OP you shouldn't retake, you should apply early and you should make sure everything you submit is well put together. Your a candidate who will be on the margin based on your numbers, so your softs will need to make sure you're on the right side of the 50/50 chance.

hibiki wrote:You should limit the data to the past couple of cycles and realize that you're dealing with a very very small sample size. You also can't look at 173+ as though it were the same as a 176. As a 176 is above the 75th, people who score in that range tend to do much better than folks who are on the other side of the 175 line. OP has a better than coinflip chance at NYU and a 30% or better chance at CLS. Chicago is harder because they don't like splitters as much, but OP has a real shot.

More importantly, EDing is a bad idea because it kills your ability to negotiate for money. OP has a solid chance at cash in the lower T14 and a decent chance at cash in the T6.

Anyway, OP you shouldn't retake, you should apply early and you should make sure everything you submit is well put together. Your a candidate who will be on the margin based on your numbers, so your softs will need to make sure you're on the right side of the 50/50 chance.

Last 3 cycles and 175+. I agree that ED shouldn't be a consideration unless he/she is 100% okay with paying sticker. I just think it's his best shot at CCN (especially CC)

…and if you limit it to last cycle it's better than 50% shot at NYU and a 40% chance at CLS.

I believe Chicago is better than Columbia or NYU for California because of class size. You are competing with less people here and are closer geographically to California (though I'm not sure how much that alone matters, I think it's more a class size thing).


Ultimately you will probably be WLed by UChi like I was, I think it is worth an app though and you can worry about choosing way down the road.

1. Retaking: Yeah I thought that retaking would be inferior to using that time for other things. Thank you for your further inputs on this
2. I'll definitely look into Penn, UVA, Duke, and Cornell.
3. As for ED, I will likely take both your advice and not do it. Right now I would be EDing just for the chances - I'm only gone by rank so far. But I'm reading Montauk's admission book (http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-Into-Top- ... B008W39YZE) which is giving me guidelines on what and how to assess law schools for me (class size, curriculum etc.). Once I use these guidelines to learn about individual schools, I might actually have a solid reason to ED. If that occurs, I'll come back for advice/inputs/comments.

Thank you hibiki for your input - I've read some of your other posts, and I think they're really helpful and insightful.

Thank you shifty_eyed for your input here and also your responding to my PM from before!

2014 wrote:I believe Chicago is better than Columbia or NYU for California because of class size. You are competing with less people here and are closer geographically to California (though I'm not sure how much that alone matters, I think it's more a class size thing).


Ultimately you will probably be WLed by UChi like I was, I think it is worth an app though and you can worry about choosing way down the road.

The more I read into law school admission books, the more I feel that class and section sizes are important, along with grading structure. I am highly competitive but in a team environment. I think I perform best when I have competition that motivates me to achieve my best. At the same time, I've had my most enjoyable experience studying with close friends, with whom I have no desire to compete but to cooperate and improve together.

It's kind of conflicting because I want to compete in the major league environment (found in big schools and major cities), but at the same time I want to work in a tightly knit group (probably more favorable in small schools away from major cities).

Your point on geography might also be important for me - I want to compete and thrive in New York but want to enjoy LA's weather and my parents live in LA. I might look into taking both bars down the road. If UChi is great for litigation and gives me geographical flexibility along with other characteristics I would like, UChi might be right for me in ways similar to Berkeley.

I agree UChi will WL me, but I'll strongly consider applying there.

Thanks for your input again 2014!

Stop worrying about work experience and don't write so many addendums. That LSAT will open a lot of doors for you. That GPA will close a lot of them. You WILL get multiple T14 acceptances.

At the end of the day, there are thousands of applicants that will have the same/better experience and similar reasons for poor academic performance as you. There are also thousands of applicants that really want to go to Harvard (it's not like anyone shoots an app there and says "I'm not really interested in a practically guaranteed six-figure job and a degree from the most famous university in the world, so if anyone wants it more than me please tell me and I'll withdraw.") Many of these applicants will have higher GPAs and comparable LSATs, and they will be accepted over you.

Your LSAT is already above all schools' 75th percentiles and your GPA is mediocre but not terrible. Those are your assets. Schools aren't going to be impressed by you working a year pushing paper or by answering 3 more questions correctly on the LSAT to get a 178. Focus on applying without making mistakes and figure out where you want to work (or if you even really want to be a lawyer at all.)

Getting a job wouldn't hurt, but it's very unlikely to change your outcomes. Definitely apply early. Don't worry, a lot of great schools will give you the chance to pay them a quarter of a million dollars.

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Hey man, thanks for replying to my post. It's nice to talk to you, because I've been following your LSN. Having said that, what is kinda funny to me is that I've made the list by adding every school that people with similar numbers to me, including you, have been accepted to. So it's likely that I've added the school BECAUSE you were accepted, haha, instead of my choosing schools and your experience giving it support (of course someone else might've gotten into a school that you didn't, in which case this statement wouldn't be 100% accurate).

Thank you for the congratulations.

Yeah, I agree with you - I'm definitely approaching H as a "way to make sure I get a rejection." I likely won't even apply to YS.

I'm definitely writing a GPA addenda though, because I had 2 quarters of less than 2.0. If I had a constant 3.0~3.5, I would not write one like you said.

I will definitely focus on applying without making mistakes. Figuring out where I want to work will be more difficult - I think knowing where I want to work will be like knowing if I can succeed in law school. I'd actually have to live in that place for at least a few weeks/months. I think the advantage of spending 3 years in NYU/Columbia would be that it'd help me make a reasonable decision as to whether I'd like to move back to Socal (where I've lived for many years) or I'd like to work there.

Thank you for your encouraging words - it means a lot coming from a similar splitter who's applied to last cycle. I think I'll handle the worry in the way that suits me, which is by worrying to the point that I genuinely don't care anymore.

BTW what makes me worry are: 1. what if the next cycle changes enough from last cycle so that splitters do a lot worse? 2. even if my numbers are similar, what if other splitters had other content in their application that made the difference and I don't have this? Reading comments from admission officers and deans from their interviews and from Montauk's book give me a different perspective from that endorsed by the TLS (not that I take every single word for granted). These are very relevant questions, but the former can't be answered and to answer the latter other applicants would have to share their applications (unrealistic).