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Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:23 pm
by lawschoolcycle2013
I am a non-traditional prospective applicant, 27 years of age and I ashamed to admit this, but I have been in undergrad for a period of 10 years. Long time, I know. I started off wanting to become a nurse, and after a few years of trying to get into the nursing program, I switched my major to psychology, I hated psychology, so i switched to economics, and then I switched to my current major of study, Community Health Education. Since 2010, I have wanted to become an attorney, so this isnt a fad that will change, I feel despite changing my major a bunch of times, for over three years I have had my mind made up.
In December, I took the LSAT after a great deal of preperation and scored 167. Then, not satisfied with my score, I retook this past February and somehow lucked out into a 173. I realize that many schools take the highest, so my strength is the 173 LSAT score.
My grade point average is atrocious. Remember in the first paragraph where I stated, I spent around five years trying to become a nurse. Well I failed some of the sciences multiple times, which I retook for A grades. I study much harder than the average person, however, I suffer immensely from anxiety as well as test anxiety and my transcript grades reflect that. My last two years of undergrad, I have maintained a gpa above 3.8 since I have a better handle on it now. I have also accrued a large number of non punitive course withdrawals trying to protect my gpa. If there ever was a section in the guiness book of world records for the most course withdrawals I probably have it. There are multiple semesters over the last 10 years where I started out enrolling in 5 courses and then I end up withdrawaling from everything but a couple courses each semester.
However, my last 2 years since 2011, I have no course withdrawals at all. ZERO. And have kept a gpa above 3.8 these last two years. However, my accumulative grade point average is going to end up around 2.4-2.5 with failing courses, etc.
I am 27 years old and dont want to put off law school in two years to gain valuable work experience, because I do not want to waste anymore time, since I have figured out what I want to do. I have a 173 LSAT score AND a 2.4 very low gpa (with many withdrawals)
Onto my question ..... 1). With law school applications down this year and given that I want to apply Fall 2013 cycle, and have a 173 LSAT/2.4 UGPA....Is it possible that a top 25, or top 50 school will take the gpa hit and accept me? 2). I have read posts on here before about others with excessive course withdrawals inquiring if they can still gain admission, and a professor told me that if you have as little as 3 or 4 withdrawals on transcript grad schools wont even look at you, and obviously I have WAAAY more, since many semesters I started off enrolling in 5 courses and only finishing two. How much will the withdrawals effect me? Can I ever get in anywhere, despite the withdrawals, the low gpa of 2.4 and the 173 LSAT. Any help would be most appreciated............
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:26 pm
by FKASunny
Your best bet would be to apply and find out. There's no statistical difference to a law school between a 2.4 and a 3.1 if you're already well below their 25th percentile. Apply early and broadly, and highlight your strengths.
a professor told me that if you have as little as 3 or 4 withdrawals on transcript grad schools wont even look at you
Grad school admissions are a totally different beast. Craft a good GPA addendum and see what happens.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:29 pm
by lawschoolcycle2013
Thanks for your insight and help. When you stated in the second sentence "grad schools are a totally different beast" were you meaning that law school admissions is different then other grad programs in terms of looking at course withdrawals?
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:43 pm
by FKASunny
lawschoolcycle2013 wrote:Thanks for your insight and help. When you stated in the second sentence "grad schools are a totally different beast" were you meaning that law school admissions is different then other grad programs in terms of looking at course withdrawals?
Yes. I've never been on an admissions committee, so this is just what I've gleaned from my personal experience with a lot of withdrawals (and withdrawal-fails) and general TLS and LSN surveys, but it seems like the formulaic uGPA/LSAT formulas still apply even with a large number of Ws. Mine also occurred during a period well in my past, my academic record wasn't nearly as impressive in the end as yours (I never hit 3.8 during any of my semesters and ended up with a sub-3.0) and I still ended up getting into the schools that one would have predicted and even a few reach schools who were probably desperate for 170+ scores.
Law schools classes are also gigantic compared to most grad programs, so they seem to be more willing to overlook certain things than grad programs that only take, say, 10-15 candidates per year.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:59 pm
by wert3813
ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:10 pm
by TheBiggerMediocre
wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:12 pm
by FKASunny
TheBiggerMediocre wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
That's not true. They count them until you get your first bachelor's
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:17 pm
by wert3813
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:TheBiggerMediocre wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
That's not true. They count them until you get your first bachelor's
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:26 pm
by bananasplit19
I can't speak to the withdrawal question, but on a pure GPA/LSAT standpoint, I can give you firsthand assurance that T25 (and even T14) schools will be at least interested in you. If you can write a compelling addendum, you should have a good shot at snagging something.
Source: Similar numbers to you, same age as you, got in at T14, $$$ at T20 this cycle. Note that I do have a few years of work experience, though.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:38 pm
by TheBiggerMediocre
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:TheBiggerMediocre wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
That's not true. They count them until you get your first bachelor's
yeah right, then I will just continue to take classes until I have a 3.75
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:39 pm
by wert3813
TheBiggerMediocre wrote:ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:TheBiggerMediocre wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
That's not true. They count them until you get your first bachelor's
yeah right, then I will just continue to take classes until I have a 3.75
Do it if you want, but don't give out factually incorrect information.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:41 pm
by MKC
TheBiggerMediocre wrote:ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:TheBiggerMediocre wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
Wait wait wait You started UG 10 years ago, are finishing now and never took any time off? As in you were enrolled every semester?
Lol even if he took 2 classes a semester plus one summer course that would be 150 credits minimum. Somebody should let him know they only count the first 120...
That's not true. They count them until you get your first bachelor's
yeah right, then I will just continue to take classes until I have a 3.75
This is theoretically possible. Generally, this is how people (generally non-traditional) get fucked from old classes. It could work the other way though. It just usually doesn't because once somebody gets their shit together with a good GPA they generally graduate in a hurry.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:43 pm
by TheBiggerMediocre
I thought I was right, I read it somewhere on this site. Then I looked it up for myself. It would take me a year, but I would look like hyperinflated.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:45 pm
by WokeUpInACar
Don't quote me, but I'm pretty sure the rule is first 180 credits. I don't understand why OP keeps making a million different threads just to get the same answer though.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 9:52 pm
by Tiago Splitter
wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
He won't get 150k at Northwestern, but he can get in there with a 173. Don't see any point in retaking.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:01 pm
by JamMasterJ
TheBiggerMediocre wrote:I thought I was right, I read it somewhere on this site. Then I looked it up for myself. It would take me a year, but I would look like hyperinflated.
My school required more than 120 credits to gradumate anyway
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:51 pm
by wert3813
Tiago Splitter wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
He won't get 150k at Northwestern, but he can get in there with a 173. Don't see any point in retaking.
Doesn't ED NW always lend you 150K? Thought it was the deal?
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:57 pm
by WokeUpInACar
wert3813 wrote:Tiago Splitter wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
He won't get 150k at Northwestern, but he can get in there with a 173. Don't see any point in retaking.
Doesn't ED NW always lend you 150K? Thought it was the deal?
They only give the ED money to people who would probably have gotten it anyway, or at least come close. Everyone else they just defer to RD.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:02 pm
by wert3813
WokeUpInACar wrote:wert3813 wrote:Tiago Splitter wrote:wert3813 wrote:ED to Northwestern and pray you get it because they give you 150K.
Tiago, Malice and others...Wouldn't a retake actually help here?
The TL/DR is 2.4 173 (with one retake) and a big gap since the bad grades.
He won't get 150k at Northwestern, but he can get in there with a 173. Don't see any point in retaking.
Doesn't ED NW always lend you 150K? Thought it was the deal?
They only give the ED money to people who would probably have gotten it anyway, or at least come close. Everyone else they just defer to RD.
Ok well then EDing to NW round 1 then ED UVA round 2 is TCR.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:19 pm
by Cobretti
wert3813 wrote:WokeUpInACar wrote:wert3813 wrote:Tiago Splitter wrote:
He won't get 150k at Northwestern, but he can get in there with a 173. Don't see any point in retaking.
Doesn't ED NW always lend you 150K? Thought it was the deal?
They only give the ED money to people who would probably have gotten it anyway, or at least come close. Everyone else they just defer to RD.
Ok well then EDing to NW round 1 then ED UVA round 2 is TCR.
How do you still think EDing NU is TCR after having this explained to you?
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:20 pm
by Clearly
2 things
1) there is no Lsac credit limit period. First BA/BS is the cutoff.
2) No shot to ED NU. That program is a full ride for a reason, to poach debt averse Columbia applicants. That said, NU is still virtually the only shot to t14 outside a Hail Mary EDUVA.
Good luck from another super splitter.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:25 pm
by Ti Malice
ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:Your best bet would be to apply and find out. There's no statistical difference to a law school between a 2.4 and a 3.1 if you're already well below their 25th percentile.
While true, it means nothing for the OP or anyone else. Schools still have GPA floors (except WUSTL), and someone with a 2.4/173 is going to have a substantially different cycle from someone with a 3.1/173.
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:26 am
by wert3813
Ti Malice wrote:ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) wrote:Your best bet would be to apply and find out. There's no statistical difference to a law school between a 2.4 and a 3.1 if you're already well below their 25th percentile.
While true, it means nothing for the OP or anyone else. Schools still have GPA floors (except WUSTL), and someone with a 2.4/173 is going to have a substantially different cycle from someone with a 3.1/173.
Is someone with a 2.4/173 going to have a substantially different cycle than someone with a 2.4 177?
Re: Advice for an extreme splitter
Posted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:44 am
by FKASunny
OP is 27 with presumably little to no income (given that s/he mentioned not wanting to take time off for work.) OP should get a fee waiver from LSAC, ED UVA and then blanket the schools where there is even a modicum of hope, regardless of past GPA floors, plus a few regional safeties. The 20 something dollars per application is worth having as many chances and options as possible.