Easier to stand out at lesser law school? Forum

[Mr. Pancakes]

I tried that. It doesn't work.
The same attitude that lets you choose the lesser school results in the lesser class rank

I think this is an insightful post. The "easier to stand out because I go to a lesser school" is 100% the wrong attitude for success.

I do think the culture is significantly different as you go down the rankings. The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS. But the bottom of the class is a different story. People whose primary concern is not about grades. This is missed a lot on TLS, in my opinion. Just walking through the halls of my school and looking at the composite photos is telling-- dozens of people with dogs, lots of people with burger king hats, fishing rods, frat star shades, and of course, people next to each other in the alphabet who collude and point at each other or make funny faces. My personal favorite-- dude brahs who borrow someone else's infant child for the photos. Pretty hilarious to see the same baby being awkwardly cradled by three or four people on the same composite.

lold

[A. Nony Mouse]

I tried that. It doesn't work.
The same attitude that lets you choose the lesser school results in the lesser class rank

I think this is an insightful post. The "easier to stand out because I go to a lesser school" is 100% the wrong attitude for success.

I do think the culture is significantly different as you go down the rankings. The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS. But the bottom of the class is a different story. People whose primary concern is not about grades. This is missed a lot on TLS, in my opinion. Just walking through the halls of my school and looking at the composite photos is telling-- dozens of people with dogs, lots of people with burger king hats, fishing rods, frat star shades, and of course, people next to each other in the alphabet who collude and point at each other or make funny faces. My personal favorite-- dude brahs who borrow someone else's infant child for the photos. Pretty hilarious to see the same baby being awkwardly cradled by three or four people on the same composite.

I generally agree with you on this. I will note, though, that one of the cheesiest photos in my class composite (someone doing the "I'll hold up one finger to the camera while I shout into the phone because my time is so important" thing) was from someone in the top 10% of the class.
(But like I said, I agree overall. I just hate those cheesy pics so had to complain.)

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

Go as big as you can.

Many businesses never get started because of the lack of lender money. That is clearly not the case with Law School, lender money is available if you are entrepreneur minded and willing to put yourself out there. If so, secure the best law school you can and let the chips fall.

Note, TLS has a multitude of horror story threads but rarely (if ever) do I see threads highlighting the thousands (or tens of thousands) who are delighted with their law school decision and successful outcome. I guess there is a perfectly good rationale for that, but admittedly, I'm not certain why.

The fact that you can assume $300K of debt and not be virtually guaranteed a job on the other side is why there is this sentiment on TLS. And understandably.

I'm with you though. I'm going to take the gamble. If I put everything I have into it I figure there is only a very, very small chance I don't land a good job right out of graduation. Even if I do have trouble finding a job, it's not like the world will end; there will always be a way forward.

got damn people like you are the worst. You're so happy to be in debt that others foot the bill for. You realize you have a 50% chance that you won't land a good job. Not a "very, very small chance". EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Sheffield and I are referring to the T14. I'm not "the worst" because it is not my responsibility to clarify this in my post. Readers can look at Sheffield's TLS profile and my LSN profile. People can see we're not talking about paying sticker at William & Mary.

Maybe the extra "very" was excessive, but "very small chance" is accurate. It's not a coin flip whether I get a good job. Clerkships and biglaw alone at T14 normally exceeds 50%.

And what the hell is this "EDUCATION YOURSELF" business? I tend to fall on the gambling side of the T-14 at sticker debate, but I am constantly here on TLS talking about this. Many of you here can attest to this. More, I have looked at every LST stat and read I think every anti-LS article ever written.

Don't be a bigot and accuse me of being stupid or misleading because I disagree. I'm not telling people to pay sticker at any TT without hesitation. Paying sticker at T14, or T10 for that matter, is a totally different issue. Most of TLS would pay T14 sticker (not most of the Ivy League-educated, 3.8x+ TLS community though, mind you, as their opportunity cost is too high). And almost all of TLS would advise T14 at sticker if the circumstances are right (i.e. UG degree in classics). So, just because I disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, doesn't mean I'm the worst.

Now, if you want to have a substantive debate, if you want to offer another angle as to why no one should ever pay sticker, that no one should ever make another foot their LS debt, by all means. That's why I'm here. Why the hell else would I spend so much time on this site?

[313DetroitLove]

Go as big as you can.

Many businesses never get started because of the lack of lender money. That is clearly not the case with Law School, lender money is available if you are entrepreneur minded and willing to put yourself out there. If so, secure the best law school you can and let the chips fall.

Note, TLS has a multitude of horror story threads but rarely (if ever) do I see threads highlighting the thousands (or tens of thousands) who are delighted with their law school decision and successful outcome. I guess there is a perfectly good rationale for that, but admittedly, I'm not certain why.

Do not follow this advise. t14 or FREE. spend your money chasing girls, not paying tuition

[Sheffield]

Do not follow this advise. t14 or FREE. spend your money chasing girls, not paying tuition

If you do not know the difference between advice and advise, you should return to grade school, where it is free.

[Revamped]

Not necessarily easier to stand out at a lesser law school, but certainly easier to afford it.

And that's exactly the reason its not automatic to stand out -- a whole bunch of overqualified students going to school for free.

Probably a better chance of staying above median at a school like that, but that's about as far as your estimation can take you. Big fish, small pond is a ubiquitous strategy.

[dingbat]

Not necessarily easier to stand out at a lesser law school, but certainly easier to afford it.

And that's exactly the reason its not automatic to stand out -- a whole bunch of overqualified students going to school for free.

Probably a better chance of staying above median at a school like that, but that's about as far as your estimation can take you. Big fish, small pond is a ubiquitous strategy.

Let's assume that turning down a better school to attend a lower ranked school gives a better chance at being above median.
Thè problem is that at the better school median night be enough for a good outcome, but at the lesser school top 1/4 might be required. The strategy doesn't help, because median isnt enough - the bar is set higher for what results are needed.

[Revamped]

Not necessarily easier to stand out at a lesser law school, but certainly easier to afford it.

And that's exactly the reason its not automatic to stand out -- a whole bunch of overqualified students going to school for free.

Probably a better chance of staying above median at a school like that, but that's about as far as your estimation can take you. Big fish, small pond is a ubiquitous strategy.

Let's assume that turning down a better school to attend a lower ranked school gives a better chance at being above median.
Thè problem is that at the better school median night be enough for a good outcome, but at the lesser school top 1/4 might be required. The strategy doesn't help, because median isnt enough - the bar is set higher for what results are needed.

I think that's a fair point. I mean, it's unknown no matter where you go. And it totally depends on what you want out of law school -- biglaw, small firm, work for dad, etc...

[Scotusnerd]

"Lesser" law school is not recommended. Either find a top regional school where you want to practice or go T14. Otherwise, you're just shooting yourself in the foot.

You'll find some brilliant people in "lesser" law schools for reasons already stated. You'll also find some less so, but I haven't met too many of them. I go to a regional school, and there's not a lot of stupid frat boys/girls in my section. We have fun, but we're pretty serious with the actual work that goes on. Even the slackers (like me) bust ass when necessary.

And definitely DO NOT assume that you will get good grades. I know that it's tempting to think that you're smarter, but law school grades are just not predictable. You may find yourself absolutely hating your civ pro professor and getting a great grade, or just never 'clicking' with your LRAW prof and getting a C.

Do not assume that you are smarter than half of your class. You would be amazed at the talent that's coming through the legal system right now. The people that aren't getting jobs are not 'dumb' (well, mostly). They're unlucky.

[rad lulz]

I tried that. It doesn't work.
The same attitude that lets you choose the lesser school results in the lesser class rank

I think this is an insightful post. The "easier to stand out because I go to a lesser school" is 100% the wrong attitude for success.

I do think the culture is significantly different as you go down the rankings. The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS. But the bottom of the class is a different story. People whose primary concern is not about grades. This is missed a lot on TLS, in my opinion. Just walking through the halls of my school and looking at the composite photos is telling-- dozens of people with dogs, lots of people with burger king hats, fishing rods, frat star shades, and of course, people next to each other in the alphabet who collude and point at each other or make funny faces. My personal favorite-- dude brahs who borrow someone else's infant child for the photos. Pretty hilarious to see the same baby being awkwardly cradled by three or four people on the same composite.

You sound like a boomer

[NYstate]

Go as big as you can.

Many businesses never get started because of the lack of lender money. That is clearly not the case with Law School, lender money is available if you are entrepreneur minded and willing to put yourself out there. If so, secure the best law school you can and let the chips fall.

Note, TLS has a multitude of horror story threads but rarely (if ever) do I see threads highlighting the thousands (or tens of thousands) who are delighted with their law school decision and successful outcome. I guess there is a perfectly good rationale for that, but admittedly, I'm not certain why.

The fact that you can assume $300K of debt and not be virtually guaranteed a job on the other side is why there is this sentiment on TLS. And understandably.

I'm with you though. I'm going to take the gamble. If I put everything I have into it I figure there is only a very, very small chance I don't land a good job right out of graduation. Even if I do have trouble finding a job, it's not like the world will end; there will always be a way forward.

got damn people like you are the worst. You're so happy to be in debt that others foot the bill for. You realize you have a 50% chance that you won't land a good job. Not a "very, very small chance". EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Sheffield and I are referring to the T14. I'm not "the worst" because it is not my responsibility to clarify this in my post. Readers can look at Sheffield's TLS profile and my LSN profile. People can see we're not talking about paying sticker at William & Mary.

Maybe the extra "very" was excessive, but "very small chance" is accurate. It's not a coin flip whether I get a good job. Clerkships and biglaw alone at T14 normally exceeds 50%.

And what the hell is this "EDUCATION YOURSELF" business? I tend to fall on the gambling side of the T-14 at sticker debate, but I am constantly here on TLS talking about this. Many of you here can attest to this. More, I have looked at every LST stat and read I think every anti-LS article ever written.

Don't be a bigot and accuse me of being stupid or misleading because I disagree. I'm not telling people to pay sticker at any TT without hesitation. Paying sticker at T14, or T10 for that matter, is a totally different issue. Most of TLS would pay T14 sticker (not most of the Ivy League-educated, 3.8x+ TLS community though, mind you, as their opportunity cost is too high). And almost all of TLS would advise T14 at sticker if the circumstances are right (i.e. UG degree in classics). So, just because I disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, doesn't mean I'm the worst.

Now, if you want to have a substantive debate, if you want to offer another angle as to why no one should ever pay sticker, that no one should ever make another foot their LS debt, by all means. That's why I'm here. Why the hell else would I spend so much time on this site?

No one should ever pay sticker because:

1. Law is a very insecure career choice, even from the top schools. I've seen people let go at 1st and 2nd years from biglaw.
2. The debt will be with you until it is repaid , accruing interest. It is more permanent than marraige. The debt can become like a partner though, deciding where you need to work and where you need to live.
3. There should be other options than paying sticker in a market with hugely declining demand.
4. As we have seen, the market for new grads is expected to remain flat. I see that more deals are coming into corporate but I don't know if that means more people will be hired. There is probably demand for laterals to make up for all the 1st and 2nd years fired in the purge of the recession.
5. The number of over 50% chance of getting a good job: look at Rayiner's unemployment thread. Not sure if that number is accurate, even if it is, how much better than a coin flip is it? It is significantly more than a small chance you will not get biglaw or clerkship. We should have 2012 data very soon. But we have the city/hildebrant report and we have the NALP 2012 SA hiring report.
6. There is no hard data anywhere on the longterm career of lawyers from T14 schools. What happens to most of them after biglaw? Are there enough jobs for everyone to get one when they leave biglaw?

(~sunynp)

[Sheffield]

No one should ever pay sticker. . .

It is possible that most students do not pay sticker (even at T14). Someone (other than me) could start a poll and find out. If polled I would select 50% of sticker. I figure others are receiving tuition reductions too.

[empyreanrrv]

No one should ever pay sticker. . .

It is possible that most students do not pay sticker (even at T14). Someone (other than me) could start a poll and find out. If polled I would select 50% of sticker. I figure others are receiving tuition reductions too.

Compiled a list from Power Score guides-- websites were really awful about listing percent receiving aid. They would list "% receiving aid," but that percent would include loans, etc. Also some discrepancies, so I'm not sure which to believe, but it is a rough estimate.
From: http://www.powerscore.com/lawschool/

Cornell: "Almost 50% of Law School students receive scholarship assistance"
http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... al_faq.cfm
but only 37% via Powerscore

Northwestern: 35.1%
Duke: 67.7%
Georgetown: 30.7%
Michigan: 57.9%
UVA: 57.5%
UPenn: 40%
Berkeley: 47.6%
Columbia: 54.5%
Chicago: 56.2%
NYU: 34.8%
Harvard: 47.1%
Stanford: 50.1%
Yale: 53.6%

[Tiago Splitter]

Just look at the ABA law school data for each school to see how much grant money they give out.

https://officialguide.lsac.org/release/ ... fault.aspx

[empyreanrrv]

Well that is much easier...

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I tried that. It doesn't work.
The same attitude that lets you choose the lesser school results in the lesser class rank

I think this is an insightful post. The "easier to stand out because I go to a lesser school" is 100% the wrong attitude for success.

I do think the culture is significantly different as you go down the rankings. The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS. But the bottom of the class is a different story. People whose primary concern is not about grades. This is missed a lot on TLS, in my opinion. Just walking through the halls of my school and looking at the composite photos is telling-- dozens of people with dogs, lots of people with burger king hats, fishing rods, frat star shades, and of course, people next to each other in the alphabet who collude and point at each other or make funny faces. My personal favorite-- dude brahs who borrow someone else's infant child for the photos. Pretty hilarious to see the same baby being awkwardly cradled by three or four people on the same composite.

You sound like a boomer

No man, just a millennial who accepts responsibility for his failures. But good hearing from you!

[empyreanrrv]

This is very relevant for this thread-- wanted to cross-post in case anyone missed it.

Dean Perez,

Hail Mary!

I was wondering if there is any way you could share some data re: the performance of high LSAT scorers relative to much lower-scoring students. Like low 160s vs. 150/151.

This is going to vary by school, but overall the predictive value of the LSAT of first year performance has a correlation coefficient of about .45 (more or less). According to my over-simplified understanding of stats, this is actually pretty strong. (A "perfect" correlation, i.e. it predicts perfectly, would be 1.0.) When you combine LSAT and UGPA, it goes up to 0.49.

Every year we (and all law schools, I would guess) provide the first year grades for our last class to LSAC and their statisticians give us back a report on how well the LSAT and GPA predicted how well those students did. (They use that to continuously improve and refine the value of the LSAT.)

What you would see is a scatterplot with a general relationship, but not perfect. So the person with the best combined stats in the class is virtually never ranked #1 in the class after the first year, but they're also virtually never outside the top 25%, either. On the other side, the person with the weakest LSAT/GPA combo isn't a lock to flunk out, but also almost never gets the grades to be in the top half of the class.

Everyone starts off equal in law school. 170 doesn't get you extra points on your law school exams and doesn't guarantee you will make law review. I've seen people with LSATs in the high 140s make law review, and I've seen people in the mid-160s flunk out. There's no substitute for hard work, which is why I often see very hard working 152-155/3.6-3.9 types eat the lunch of 160-164/3.1-3.3 types in law school. The first group is smart "enough" and has the attitude and work ethic to squeeze every bit of potential out of themselves. The latter group is very smart and gifted, but has usually cruised by on talent without ever being pushed to actually work hard.

Dean Perez

[somewhatwayward]

I'm going to take the gamble. If I put everything I have into it I figure there is only a very, very small chance I don't land a good job right out of graduation. Even if I do have trouble finding a job, it's not like the world will end; there will always be a way forward.

got damn people like you are the worst. You're so happy to be in debt that others foot the bill for. You realize you have a 50% chance that you won't land a good job. Not a "very, very small chance". EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Don't be a bigot and accuse me of being stupid or misleading because I disagree.

While technically a bigot can be someone who is intolerant of another person's opinion, it is used with regard to intolerance of something like race/religion....I don't think someone attacking your special snowflake-ness (yes, believing "if I put everything into it, I figure there is only a very very small chance I don't land a job" is super special snowflake unless you're talking HYS) deserve the label of bigot. Geez.

The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS.

I kinda doubt that although it depends on what you mean by top of class. If it is literally the top person, maybe.

[NYstate]

No one should ever pay sticker. . .

It is possible that most students do not pay sticker (even at T14). Someone (other than me) could start a poll and find out. If polled I would select 50% of sticker. I figure others are receiving tuition reductions too.

The post above me that I quoted wanted reasons why paying sticker at a T14 is a bad idea. It is possible that person is a troll. Nonetheless, I thought of two more reasons:

7. Most people hate biglaw.
8. Many of the people who hate biglaw also just plain hate being a lawyer.


~sunynp

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I'm going to take the gamble. If I put everything I have into it I figure there is only a very, very small chance I don't land a good job right out of graduation. Even if I do have trouble finding a job, it's not like the world will end; there will always be a way forward.

got damn people like you are the worst. You're so happy to be in debt that others foot the bill for. You realize you have a 50% chance that you won't land a good job. Not a "very, very small chance". EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Don't be a bigot and accuse me of being stupid or misleading because I disagree.

While technically a bigot can be someone who is intolerant of another person's opinion, it is used with regard to intolerance of something like race/religion....I don't think someone attacking your special snowflake-ness (yes, believing "if I put everything into it, I figure there is only a very very small chance I don't land a job" is super special snowflake unless you're talking HYS) deserve the label of bigot. Geez.

The top of the class at pretty much every school is very smart, and could compete at YHS.

I kinda doubt that although it depends on what you mean by top of class. If it is literally the top person, maybe.

No, I mean multiple people. The biggest difference between Harvard and the University of Florida is work ethic and ambition, not IQ. There is a difference in average IQ for sure, but a large number of UF students are equally intelligent as their peers at Harvard. They generally lack, and have probably lacked their whole lives, the kind of work ethic and drive that would have gotten them to Harvard instead of UF. Conventional TLS wisdom is that work ethic is more important than smarts in order to get top grades, so I think this is relevant to the 0Ls.

Someone who has only gone to elite private schools might disagree, but chances are they lack the perspective to have an informed opinion. I had experience at a top 10 undergrad and a top 150 undergrad, and my take is my take-- feel free to disagree.

[dingbat]

No, I mean multiple people. The biggest difference between Harvard and the University of Florida is work ethic and ambition, not IQ. There is a difference in average IQ for sure, but a large number of UF students are equally intelligent as their peers at Harvard. They generally lack, and have probably lacked their whole lives, the kind of work ethic and drive that would have gotten them to Harvard instead of UF. Conventional TLS wisdom is that work ethic is more important than smarts in order to get top grades, so I think this is relevant to the 0Ls.

Someone who has only gone to elite private schools might disagree, but chances are they lack the perspective to have an informed opinion. I had experience at a top 10 undergrad and a top 150 undergrad, and my take is my take-- feel free to disagree.

Having attended some shitty schools in my time, I strongly disagree

[ManoftheHour]

Go as big as you can.

Many businesses never get started because of the lack of lender money. That is clearly not the case with Law School, lender money is available if you are entrepreneur minded and willing to put yourself out there. If so, secure the best law school you can and let the chips fall.

Note, TLS has a multitude of horror story threads but rarely (if ever) do I see threads highlighting the thousands (or tens of thousands) who are delighted with their law school decision and successful outcome. I guess there is a perfectly good rationale for that, but admittedly, I'm not certain why.

The fact that you can assume $300K of debt and not be virtually guaranteed a job on the other side is why there is this sentiment on TLS. And understandably.

I'm with you though. I'm going to take the gamble. If I put everything I have into it I figure there is only a very, very small chance I don't land a good job right out of graduation. Even if I do have trouble finding a job, it's not like the world will end; there will always be a way forward.

got damn people like you are the worst. You're so happy to be in debt that others foot the bill for. You realize you have a 50% chance that you won't land a good job. Not a "very, very small chance". EDUCATE YOURSELF.

Sheffield and I are referring to the T14. I'm not "the worst" because it is not my responsibility to clarify this in my post. Readers can look at Sheffield's TLS profile and my LSN profile. People can see we're not talking about paying sticker at William & Mary.

Maybe the extra "very" was excessive, but "very small chance" is accurate. It's not a coin flip whether I get a good job. Clerkships and biglaw alone at T14 normally exceeds 50%.

And what the hell is this "EDUCATION YOURSELF" business? I tend to fall on the gambling side of the T-14 at sticker debate, but I am constantly here on TLS talking about this. Many of you here can attest to this. More, I have looked at every LST stat and read I think every anti-LS article ever written.

Don't be a bigot and accuse me of being stupid or misleading because I disagree. I'm not telling people to pay sticker at any TT without hesitation. Paying sticker at T14, or T10 for that matter, is a totally different issue. Most of TLS would pay T14 sticker (not most of the Ivy League-educated, 3.8x+ TLS community though, mind you, as their opportunity cost is too high). And almost all of TLS would advise T14 at sticker if the circumstances are right (i.e. UG degree in classics). So, just because I disagree with you doesn't make me wrong, doesn't mean I'm the worst.

Now, if you want to have a substantive debate, if you want to offer another angle as to why no one should ever pay sticker, that no one should ever make another foot their LS debt, by all means. That's why I'm here. Why the hell else would I spend so much time on this site?

I've nothing to contribute to this conversation other than that "King of Carrot Flowers Part 1" is my favorite song on its album.

[Sheffield]

The biggest difference between Harvard and the University of Florida is work ethic. . ."

A good work ethic is valuable but if you are hoping to be accepted into a T14 or land a job with a prominent firm, the ultimate measure and deciding factor is…. aptitude.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

The biggest difference between Harvard and the University of Florida is work ethic. . ."

A good work ethic is valuable but if you are hoping to be accepted into a T14 or land a job with a prominent firm, the ultimate measure and deciding factor is…. aptitude.

I don't know anyone who has been accepted into a prominent firm without both work ethic and aptitude. I do know people who have been accepted at a T-14 with a lot of work ethic but less aptitude, and vice-versa..

Not sure what we're equivocating about.

It would be easier for me to think that I'm better, or smarter, or more able than everyone else who hasn't accomplished what I have, but I would be purposely overlooking the fact that life is complicated and other people might not share my goals.

[WhatOurBodiesAreFor]

While technically a bigot can be someone who is intolerant of another person's opinion, it is used with regard to intolerance of something like race/religion....I don't think someone attacking your special snowflake-ness (yes, believing "if I put everything into it, I figure there is only a very very small chance I don't land a job" is super special snowflake unless you're talking HYS) deserve the label of bigot. Geez.

OK thanks for clearing up the de facto but not technical misuse of the word bigot. Cheers.

In the post where I use the word bigot I conceded that the extra "very" I put probably took away some accuracy out of the statement. It's really annoying that you didn't acknowledge this.

Anyway, all I'm saying is hard work, networking, good planning, etc. will decrease the risk somewhat. It's kind of foolish to look at Mich's 75% LST rating and say, 1 out of 4 grads end up making 60K for the rest of their lives working in shitlaw and living in a boring town in Ohio, which is kind of the sentiment around here