Top Law Schools

Hi All,

I stumbled across this forum by luck more than anything else but am grateful for all information I've found here so far. However I've had a bit of trouble finding information that relates to international students (or whether international students require further or different information to American applicants.) The whole school application process in the states is super forgien to me and I'm just starting to get my head around it. I have some questions - if I'm asking them in the wrong place just point me in the right direction.



My first question is perhaps a stupid one. If one had more than one degree (e.g. undergrad and a graduate degree) how do the schools and/or LSAC calculate your GPA? Do they take an average of your two scores or simply focus on the most recent? If there are any overseas students with experience with GPA conversions/equivalencies through LSAC I'd be interested to hear about how that went for you. This is a pretty important factor for me in turning what is currently a pipedream into a maybe-actionable-plan.

My second question is probably even stupider. Is there somewhere where I can find a nice neat summary of a dated timeline for the admission process/cycle? It looks like there is one available through LSAC but only once you have registered for an account. I'm not sure I should register for an account while I'm still in the pipedream stage (and not yet finished my graduate degree.)

If anyone has any helpful pointers (e.g. good Australian LSAT study courses, experience applying to law school as an international application etc) I'd appreciate it!

.

imagination wrote:Hi All,

I stumbled across this forum by luck more than anything else but am grateful for all information I've found here so far. However I've had a bit of trouble finding information that relates to international students (or whether international students require further or different information to American applicants.) The whole school application process in the states is super forgien to me and I'm just starting to get my head around it. I have some questions - if I'm asking them in the wrong place just point me in the right direction.

My first question is perhaps a stupid one. If one had more than one degree (e.g. undergrad and a graduate degree) how do the schools and/or LSAC calculate your GPA? Do they take an average of your two scores or simply focus on the most recent? If there are any overseas students with experience with GPA conversions/equivalencies through LSAC I'd be interested to hear about how that went for you. This is a pretty important factor for me in turning what is currently a pipedream into a maybe-actionable-plan.

My second question is probably even stupider. Is there somewhere where I can find a nice neat summary of a dated timeline for the admission process/cycle? It looks like there is one available through LSAC but only once you have registered for an account. I'm not sure I should register for an account while I'm still in the pipedream stage (and not yet finished my graduate degree.)

If anyone has any helpful pointers (e.g. good Australian LSAT study courses, experience applying to law school as an international application etc) I'd appreciate it!

Welcome aboard!

re: GPA - Only US and Canadian GPAs receive the whole LSDAS-GPA conversion treatment. International GPAs are just marked "superior" or some other broad term. Schools have access to the transcripts but don't end up needing to factor them in when reporting scores. In the US, rankings methodology means schools care a lot about their median scores and 25th/75th percentile scores. As an international student you'd be exempt from contributing to these so schools would care less.

However, HYS still want a strong student body. If your undergrad (which is the more important of the two by far) transcript is littered with C's and B's then you'll have serious problems getting in. Even though they don't need to report a score, they are very unlikely to accept a straight-B student, if that makes sense.

That said, by -far- the greatest determining factor for you will be the LSAT score. If you think of US applicants as having a sort of 59/40/1 weighting between their LSAT/GPA/other, you can think of yourself as having a 95/3/2 weighting between your LSAT/GPA/other. By GPA I mean undergrad GPA. Graduate degrees count as "others" (or "softs") here, and will basically never be the difference maker (unless of course you like failed out of a graduate program, which would certainly raise a red flag).

In terms of timeline:
-Aim to write the LSAT in a June sitting (Feb is best avoided, and this allows you October and maybe December for back-ups if you don't do well)
-Aim to apply in October of the year before you wish to matriculate (ie, entering September 2014 means apply in October 2013).
-The -deadlines- are usually the December LSAT and an application before early/mid February, but schools have rolling admissions so you want to apply early. (The exception is Yale, which has stated repeatedly that they don't do rolling admissions and TLS seems to agree they're not lying).

Also, schools usually say they average LSAT scores. Empirical evidence indicates they don't. They'll take your highest, generally. This is because they only report your highest. If you can have your LSAT be above your target schools 75th percentile, you're set.

If you have a decent undergrad transcript (lots of A's, maybe a couple of B's..you have more a cushion than US applicants do, though) and an LSAT >177, you'll have as good at shot at HYS as anyone!

Good luck!

Thank you very much for your replies and information. I've found it super helpful.

It's encouraging to hear that as an international applicant my GPA may be weighted less so - seeing as my graduate GPA won't count and my undergraduate GPA is not stellar. My undergrad GPA was dragged down by year 1 [lot's of passes and credits whilst years 2 and 3 are a string of distinctions] however I'm still concerned about the impact of a 3 (on a 4 point scale) even with an outstanding LSAT. If I got a 175-180 on the LSAT with a substandard GPA, as an international applicant, do you think it's worth applying? (With extensive volunteer work (local and international), graduate degree with much better GPA (3.5++), publications/international conference presentations in my current field [I'm a nurse - at 22 I've had a severe change of heart in my career choices/life direction -- the last thing I ever thought I'd want to do was go to law school!] and career experience to make up that measly 1-2% of my application.)

imagination wrote:Thank you very much for your replies and information. I've found it super helpful.

It's encouraging to hear that as an international applicant my GPA may be weighted less so - seeing as my graduate GPA won't count and my undergraduate GPA is not stellar. My undergrad GPA was dragged down by year 1 [lot's of passes and credits whilst years 2 and 3 are a string of distinctions] however I'm still concerned about the impact of a 3 (on a 4 point scale) even with an outstanding LSAT. If I got a 175-180 on the LSAT with a substandard GPA, as an international applicant, do you think it's worth applying? (With extensive volunteer work (local and international), graduate degree with much better GPA (3.5++), publications/international conference presentations in my current field [I'm a nurse - at 22 I've had a severe change of heart in my career choices/life direction -- the last thing I ever thought I'd want to do was go to law school!] and career experience to make up that measly 1-2% of my application.)

In reality no one knows how think will work out, there are so few international students excl. canadians (that is, w/o proper GPA). If your UG degree is 3 out of 4 you'll probably get evaluated as 'above average'. I'm in the same boat (also AA) albeit with a slightly lower LSAT. We'll see how it plays out

imagination wrote:Thank you very much for your replies and information. I've found it super helpful.

It's encouraging to hear that as an international applicant my GPA may be weighted less so - seeing as my graduate GPA won't count and my undergraduate GPA is not stellar. My undergrad GPA was dragged down by year 1 [lot's of passes and credits whilst years 2 and 3 are a string of distinctions] however I'm still concerned about the impact of a 3 (on a 4 point scale) even with an outstanding LSAT. If I got a 175-180 on the LSAT with a substandard GPA, as an international applicant, do you think it's worth applying? (With extensive volunteer work (local and international), graduate degree with much better GPA (3.5++), publications/international conference presentations in my current field [I'm a nurse - at 22 I've had a severe change of heart in my career choices/life direction -- the last thing I ever thought I'd want to do was go to law school!] and career experience to make up that measly 1-2% of my application.)

If nothing else you'd provide the law applicant community with an interesting case study!

If your transcript comes back from LSAC and is marked "above average" then that could be a problem. I don't believe it would necessarily be a deal breaker, and your graduate degree may very much make up for it to a much greater degree than it would for a US applicant. I can't say this with certainty, nor can anyone on TLS (except for a lurking admissions officer?). However, an "above average" transcript would almost certainly need a 176-180 LSAT to be competitive. HYS, YS in particular, really do take a holistic approach (every school -says- they do, but YS actually do) to their applicants. This means they aren't going to totally disregard your foreign undergrad as some lower ranked schools might do (again, those schools might just care about how your LSAT can boost their rankings), but they'll also give more weight to your softs than schools in general do. Your softs are strong, and your graduate record indicates that weaknesses in your undergrad performance may not be of much concern.

A "superior" transcript, with a graduate degree and an interesting life story, and an LSAT above 173 is -certainly- competitive everywhere. If you had a 177 and a "superior," you'd probably be a lock at almost all three.

At worst the schools will be realistic reaches if you score very highly on the LSAT. At best they'll be very achievable. This depends on your LSAT performance, though, so sign up for the June test -now- and start studying -now.- You're already behind schedule if you haven't. Noodley has a great "how to score a 179" kicking around somewhere that you should check out. He wrote it for retakers, but it's just as solid for a first-timer.

Also, if you plan on returning to Australia you may want to consider if HYS is necessary/desirable. As a Canadian I can say that if I was absolutely sure I wanted to practice in Canada then schools that are dismissed on these forums (University of Toronto, Osgoode Hall, etc) would be much wiser career decisions than HYS. On the other hand, if you can see yourself settling in the United States then you might want to avoid limiting yourself to HYS. The entire T14 is worth looking at, and even with a subpar international GPA a strong LSAT can secure you a seat at Columbia, Chicago, and NYU on down!

Anyway, hope I've been of some help. Again, best of luck!

I have an Above Average and am in at Michigan and Georgetown so far. I agree that it might be a problem for HYS though. I've never seen anyone on TLS with anything worse than Above Average.

We have a thread going for international applicants that you can check out, might answer any other questions you have. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 7&t=199435

Those dern Australians are taking our jerbs!!!!!

bbsg wrote: A "superior" transcript, with a graduate degree and an interesting life story, and an LSAT above 173 is -certainly- competitive everywhere. If you had a 177 and a "superior," you'd probably be a lock at almost all three.

From the applicant profiles here, it may not be a lock. I recall seeing a profile with 179, above average.
95/3/2 LSAT/GPA/other gives way too less weight to GPA, imo. GPA may be weighed more heavily than that even for the foreign applicants.

jmjm wrote:

bbsg wrote: A "superior" transcript, with a graduate degree and an interesting life story, and an LSAT above 173 is -certainly- competitive everywhere. If you had a 177 and a "superior," you'd probably be a lock at almost all three.

From the applicant profiles here, it may not be a lock. I recall seeing a profile with 179, above average.
95/3/2 LSAT/GPA/other gives way too less weight to GPA, imo. GPA may be weighed more heavily than that even for the foreign applicants.

Yeah, having been around for awhile and seen more int'ls since I last posted that I'd agree. The "superior" is pretty key. An "above average" has you dinged pretty liberally from HYS for sure, regardless of other components of the application.