Just read Don't Go to Law School (Unless)
Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:26 pm
And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.
How accurate is this book?
How accurate is this book?
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Haha good point. It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.vanwinkle wrote:If that's how it made you feel, it may be pretty accurate.
I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.
As a 3L knowing what I know now, I would say that this is about the size of things. What changes the calculus for me, and I think many others, is that our options that didn't involve law school are even worse and some of us just prefer legal work to other work.msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.
How accurate is this book?
I think this is true for the majority of the people who are looking to apply to law school because they can't figure out what to do with their useless college majors. Unfortunately, those are the people who also lack better options, because they don't have work experience or other more marketable qualities. HYS also seem to value better-rounded candidates, where other schools might just be blinded by good numbers. This ends up screwing those high-number, low soft kids, because after admission your (arbitrary) 1L grades and softs mean everything. My main takeaway after OCI is that spending time making yourself a better-rounded candidate outside of numbers (for school, for jobs, for life) is never wasted. So yeah, HYS ----> CCN + scholly + serious credentials beyond college clubs + good interview skills and savvy.msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.
How accurate is this book?
piccolittle wrote:I think this is true for the majority of the people who are looking to apply to law school because they can't figure out what to do with their useless college majors. Unfortunately, those are the people who also lack better options, because they don't have work experience or other more marketable qualities. HYS also seem to value better-rounded candidates, where other schools might just be blinded by good numbers. This ends up screwing those high-number, low soft kids, because after admission your (arbitrary) 1L grades and softs mean everything. My main takeaway after OCI is that spending time making yourself a better-rounded candidate outside of numbers (for school, for jobs, for life) is never wasted. So yeah, HYS ----> CCN + scholly + serious credentials beyond college clubs + good interview skills and savvy.msquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.
How accurate is this book?
I would say anything below HYS is not worth the money if you are a typical K-JD. [End rant, sorry if that makes no sense]
One could also argue that with some of those options, not going to law school at all might be a better choice, given the probability of actually practicing law after graduation, and depending on one's goals...Aberzombie1892 wrote:I agree with the above posters.
Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.
For example, a typical hierarchy would be UVA/Duke>Vanderbilt>Emory/UGA/Georgia State (there is no point in taking this down another level). If someone gets into UVA/Duke at sticker, but also receives a huge scholarship at Vanderbilt, the latter would be the better option. In addition, if someone has to choose between Vanderbilt at sticker and one of Emory/UGA/Georgia State coupled with a huge scholarship, Emory/UGA/Georgia State would be the better option. Similar hierarchies could be applied throughout the US.
Although I agree with the general sentiment here, this part of TLS CW sticks in my craw. For splitters, this isn't true at all. Due to scholarships and need-based aid, the T14 option isn't necessarily much more expensive than the T1 option. If you drop down another tier, I think you're more likely to have a full-tution scholarship as an option. I question if a full-tution scholarship at a T2 is better than a discounted T14, though.Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.
(ignoring need aid) This argument counsels against taking HYS at sticker as well.vanwinkle wrote:I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.
Yes... yes, it does.bk187 wrote:(ignoring need aid) This argument counsels against taking HYS at sticker as well.vanwinkle wrote:I think I'd agree with that. In order to pay back your debt in a "timely manner" you'd need to 1) find a $160K job and 2) hold it for at least 4-5 years. Even people who manage to do it these days are worried until they get it done.msquaredb wrote:It made me feel that way because the odds are against you even at CCN as far as paying back debt in a timely manner and living free of that worry.
I didn't take anything "good" from it at all really. I think the best part of the book was the last line in which he wrote "Don't catch a falling knife".cahwc12 wrote:Yeah I read this book the day before I took the LSAT in lieu of taking a final PT. Talk about a de-stresser!
Probably the best advice in that book went something like this:
"They aren't giving you scholarships--you're negotiating how much you will pay them to go to school. If the deal isn't good enough, be prepared to walk away."
Honestly anyone who hasn't read the book should pick it up. It's only ~90 pages but is a gold-mine of useful advice for law school hopefuls.
Supposedly things have loosened up, scholly-wise, but I applied pretty broadly and my best money offer was a T14 with a 3.48/173, so the assumption that everyone with a top-tier admission could go somewhere else with money isn't a universal truth.hibiki wrote:Although I agree with the general sentiment here, this part of TLS CW sticks in my craw. For splitters, this isn't true at all. Due to scholarships and need-based aid, the T14 option isn't necessarily much more expensive than the T1 option. If you drop down another tier, I think you're more likely to have a full-tution scholarship as an option. I question if a full-tution scholarship at a T2 is better than a discounted T14, though.Aberzombie1892 wrote:Basically, if you get into any randomly selected T14 at sticker, you would probably receive a massive scholarship to a lower T14/non-T14. And here, Campos' point is that the massive scholarship at a good school is almost always a better option than paying a lot more for something that is nowhere near guaranteed.
For candidates with stronger numbers, I'm sure your point is valid.
Yes. No.laxbrah420 wrote:Does it address the situation of parental aid and pleasure derived from college parties?
The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).IAFG wrote:I also still don't agree that it would be better to have a fairly slim chance of a six figure job but no debt than a fairly good chance with a lot of debt. Or at least, I think reasonable minds could differ.
Why does the debt neutralize the outcome for CCNP but not HYS? We also come full circle to disagreement about what is a "fairly good chance." And where do you get that job security in biglaw is low?BruceWayne wrote:The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).
Very Accuratemsquaredb wrote:And it made me feel like nowhere is worth the money besides HYS.
How accurate is this book?
Awesome stuff, this never really hit me until you stated it right now. Most 0Ls (like myself) think only about the prospects of first job after law school and ASSUME that everything will be good afterwards not realizing the high turnover rate at biglaw firms or thinking about exit options.BruceWayne wrote:The problem is that the current reality is that only HYS and CCNPenn (for NYC jobs) provide a "fairly good chance". And the thing about the CCNPenn option is that the lot of debt neutralizes the outcome for those who attain the NYC firm jobs (and when considering the low job security at these firms in the current climate things get even bleaker).IAFG wrote:I also still don't agree that it would be better to have a fairly slim chance of a six figure job but no debt than a fairly good chance with a lot of debt. Or at least, I think reasonable minds could differ.
Because of the current state of legal hiring going to a strong regional for free or close to it is becoming the better option. If you do very well you will land the biglaw job (oftentimes in a lower COL secondary market) with no debt--and amazing situation. If you strike out of biglaw like most of the class you won't have any debt to worry about and will basically be back at square one. Now this may sound like a worse idea than a top 14 at sticker to many of the uniformed. But what the uniformed don't realize is that once you strike out at firms at a top 14--you are essentially the same as a non top of the class regional student for purposes of hiring. In other words, you're just like your bottom 75 percenters at the regional school--except you're loaded with 240K in non-dischargeable debt. When you understand this latte reality you really understand how the top 14 has lost a LOT of it's significance/appeal ITE.
Part of the problem with this logic is that someone who would be taking out COL loans at a T-14 will almost always be doing the same at anywhere else. A full ride can still mean 60K in debt at graduation.BruceWayne wrote: Because of the current state of legal hiring going to a strong regional for free or close to it is becoming the better option. If you do very well you will land the biglaw job (oftentimes in a lower COL secondary market) with no debt--and amazing situation. If you strike out of biglaw like most of the class you won't have any debt to worry about and will basically be back at square one.